Generals Face Harsh Criticism As NA Passes Defence Budget

[muse]

However you cannot criticize the entire institute, it has always had honorable men who were/are a part of it.

Why can't one criticize the entire institution? After all, by your own comments the good ones are run out, what does that say for the kind of institution it is, about the kind of values that animate it -- If we don't keep these under our thumb, they will misunderstand us and it will be back to the same Mullah military

 

[T-Faz]

Why can't one criticize the entire institution? After all, by your own comments the good ones are run out, what does that say for the kind of institution it is, about the kind of values that animate it -- If we don't keep these under our thumb, they will misunderstand us and it will be back to the same Mullah military

Criticizing the entire institute might alienate those elements who could play an important role in altering the ideology of the institute. There are still a number of people who do not subscribe to this Mullah-Military alliance, refer to the recent study by the Americans which found that around 30% of the military men are secular in their outlook but remain quiet due to the power of Islamists. Such people might be the cause for change in the long run and if they are supported well enough, they just just might challenge the alliance with the Mullahs and succeed.

Keeping the generals under the thumb is the best way to go because they are the ones who make the decisions, the common soldier has no bearing on the decisions being made.

 

[TaimiKhan]

Where did i get what info?

Wow it doesn't surprise me that some even now pretend to be blind


Fauji Foundation, the corporate face of the serving and retired generals watching and serving their collective financial interests,

The Fauji Foundation is currently running the Fauji-Jordan Fertilizer Company, the Fauji Fertilizer Company, the Fauji Cereals, the Fauji Corn Complex, the Fauji Polypropylene Products, the Foundation Gas, the Fauji Oil Terminal and the Distribution Company Limited, the Mari Gas Company Limited and the Fauji Kabirwala Power Company Limited.

The Pakistan Army-run Army Welfare Trust (AWT), separately, runs an empire of business projects that also includes banks, insurance companies, and pharmaceutical and cement plants.

So ????

Have you ever considered the economic value they have ??

How many people get employed, how many house holds are fed due to the people who work in these organizations, how much direct and indirect income in the shame of taxes they generate ?? How much economic value they are contributing to the economy of Pakistan itself ?? Had they not been invested in Pakistan, who would have ?? Do you think your industrialists would invest in such huge number or the politicians you vote for bring their money from abroad and invest in Pakistan.

Are these Army run organizations investing abroad or inside of Pakistan ?? Are they benefiting the outsiders or the people living in Pakistan ?? Any idea how much direct income tax they give to the govt itself ?? How much income tax in generated from the employees it has hired ?? How much sales tax they collect on behalf of the govt ?? Plus the numerous other taxes they collect for the govt ??

You people come here and start your bashing by looking at the negative side, while ignoring the positive picture which is much more brighter and positive compared to negative side.

Any idea how many purely civilians work in these organizations ??

You guys are just so pessimist.


And yeah even if the generals are worth 20-25 crore at retirement, they don't get cash, the cash amount is the amount of their pension, which is hardly close to 3-4 Million spanning through out their carrier of 3 decades and more. Their this worth of crores is based on the plots they get at the time of retirement, which also does NOT comes out of the taxpayers money or budget, rather from the resources Army generates itself.

So what is the fcuking problem with people if a general is worth crores not out of their tax money or govt money or defence budget. these generals are not becoming millionaires out of the peoples pocket, then what is their problem ?? If people have that much of a problem, then why not look at the politicians, bureaucrats, who make millions, crores, billions right out of the tax payers money, right out of the govt money.

People have a problem with generals becoming millionaires from the efforts of Army's own resources, not tax payers money and not govt's money, but no problem with the people who becomes billionaires not just millionaires after eating tax payers money, govt money.

I know cases of Grade 17-18 officers making 50 crores+ money out of govt pocket, but no one criticizes them ?? I remember a WAPDA line superintendent making atleast 10 crore worth of assets after selling WAPDA assets, am quoting just one case, there are hundreds of thousands of such cases. A govt doctor of grade 18, making just a house of 5 crore for his own living, leave aside the crores he had in his other assets.

You guys have no problem with such people making crores but have problem with generals who take no money of peoples pocket.


Height of hypocrisy.

You guys should be more balanced rather then tilting towards one side.

But yeah, we should bring in transparency in the defence budget. What is going where should be scrutinized, pay and perks should be revisited and whatever Army gives its officers after retirement is coming out of its own generated resources, no one should have any issue with that as long as the defence budget is being used properly as this happens all around the wold by big companies.

Army-run organizations should be made sure to give their due taxes and no undue favor should be done for them. And i would encourage the Govt to back up the army run organizations and invest in foreign country activities, thus bringing in more money to Pakistan. Kind of a joint govt-private-fauji foundation investment arm, joining their resources together and investing in big projects, earning money for Pakistan, export of human resources and bringing back technological things good for Pakistan.

 

[Cheetah786]

most people now understand this however the diffiucult part is how do we sort this institution out ? they are deep rooted inside , it will further increase the anarchy in the country ...

Turkey began to change in 2002 when the new Justice and Development Party (AKP) won an electoral victory. The shift from the traditional left and rightist Kemalist parties was due to a major demographic shift. Rural and middle class Turks began moving into the cities, diluting the political and economic power of the minority secular elite: the military, big business, media, academia, and judiciary.
Turkey’s tame Muslim religious establishment was kept under tight security control. Under Ataturk and his successors, Islam, the bedrock of Turkish culture and ethos, was savagely attacked, nearly destroyed and brought under state control – just as the Russian Orthodox Church was during Stalin’s era.
What Turks called “the deep government” – hard rightists, security organizations, gangsters, the rich elite, and rabid nationalists -wielded power and crushed dissenters.
AK called for Islamic political principles: welfare for the poor and old, fighting corruption, responsive, ethical political leaders, good relations with neighbors. Turkey’s right and its military allies screamed that their nation was about to fall to Iranian-style Islamists, or torn apart by Kurdish rebels.
In fact, AK’s decade of rule has given Turkey its longest period of human rights, stunning economic growth, financial stability, and democratic government.
Largely unseen by outsiders, AK has relentlessly pushed Turkey’s reactionary military back to its barracks. This long struggle culminated in attempts by the military, known as the Ergenekon affaire, to again overthrow the civilian government.
The plot was broken: numbers of high-raking officers were arrested and put on trial. So were journalists and media figures involved in the plot – probably too many. Investigators are examining questionable arms deals between Turkey’s military and Israel.
Ergenekon broke the power of Turkey’s generals, who were closely allied to the US military establishment and Israel’s Likud party. In fact, the Pentagon often had more influence over Turkey than its civilian leaders. Until AK, the US nurtured bitter Turkish hostility to Iran, Syria, Hezbullah, Hamas, and, at times, Iraq, and an artificial friendship with Israel.

 

[Cheetah786]

So ????

Have you ever considered the economic value they have ??

Yes very much and there economic value to Pakistan itself is 0 these are non tax paying corporations so you see they contribute nothing to the government.
In most cases they are monopolies and private companies are not allowed to compete with them period.

How many people get employed, how many house holds are fed due to the people who work in these organizations, how much direct and indirect income in the shame of taxes they generate ??

jobs created by MONOPOLIES cost taxpayers money are not considered Good for the economy and again crown corporations pay zero dollars and zero cents in taxes as usually at the end of the year they ask for money to stay alive.

How much economic value they are contributing to the economy of Pakistan itself ?? Had they not been invested in Pakistan, who would have ??

All over the world Private sector invests in these business and generates profits plus taxes for the governments

Do you think your industrialists would invest in such huge number or the politicians you vote for bring their money from abroad and invest in Pakistan.

Funny you asked Lots of private Money left Pakistan as it was impossible for them to compete with crown corporations for a simple reason they are not granted a License don't believe me try it your self.

Are these Army run organizations investing abroad or inside of Pakistan

??

Taking taxpayers Money isn't considered Investment but taking profits and putting it in foreign bank accounts is considered investing abroad and guess who is holds foreign bank accounts.

Are they benefiting the outsiders or the people living in Pakistan ??

same question over and over again

Any idea how much direct income tax they give to the govt itself ??

Zero dollars and zero cents

How much income tax in generated from the employees it has hired ??

Tax payers subsidized corporations that don't let any body else compete with them don't contribute any thing to the governments.

How much sales tax they collect on behalf of the govt ?? Plus the numerous other taxes they collect for the govt ??

sales taxes are collected by every business all over the world that's not some thing unique to these people

You people come here and start your bashing by looking at the negative side, while ignoring the positive picture which is much more brighter and positive compared to negative side.

yeah Pakistan is the economic hub of the world people are dying to invest here as the security situation created by these generals is so favorable that investors have decided to invest in India and china just to be closer to Pakistan as they cant get in Pakistan there is no room left here.

Any idea how many purely civilians work in these organizations ??

You guys are just so pessimist.

please tell us how many civilians run these organizations

And yeah even if the generals are worth 20-25 crore at retirement, they don't get cash, the cash amount is the amount of their pension, which is hardly close to 3-4 Million spanning through out their carrier of 3 decades and more. Their this worth of crores is based on the plots they get at the time of retirement, which also does NOT comes out of the taxpayers money or budget, rather from the resources Army generates itself.

Army generates right there you have answered all your questions Army isn't there to generate any thing its there to defend the Nation.Every thing Army does its comes out of tax payers pockets every thing.

So what is the fcuking problem with people if a general is worth crores not out of their tax money or govt money or defence budget.

we should be saluting these generals they are running the defense of the nation for free on top they generate taxes and income for the governments so if they take few pennies out of it for themselves you are right what were we thinking.

these generals are not becoming millionaires out of the peoples pocket, then what is their problem ?? If people have that much of a problem, then why not look at the politicians, bureaucrats, who make millions, crores, billions right out of the tax payers money, right out of the govt money.

Most politicians in Pakistan today are all creations of you guessed it the Army we all are familiar with ISI political wing aren't we.and they are there cause they bend backwards to the generals to keep there jobs otherwise they are simply replaced with a general also known as military take over or i am also imagining that and it has never happened.

People have a problem with generals becoming millionaires from the efforts of Army's own resources, not tax payers money and not govt's money, but no problem with the people who becomes billionaires not just millionaires after eating tax payers money, govt money.

same thing repeated over and over again

I know cases of Grade 17-18 officers making 50 crores+ money out of govt pocket, but no one criticizes them ?? I remember a WAPDA line superintendent making atleast 10 crore worth of assets after selling WAPDA assets, am quoting just one case, there are hundreds of thousands of such cases. A govt doctor of grade 18, making just a house of 5 crore for his own living, leave aside the crores he had in his other assets.

you see that's what most of us here are complaining about corruption

You guys have no problem with such people making crores but have problem with generals who take no money of peoples pocket.

yeah you are right we are wrong General who is getting paid by the taxpayers to defend the nation is running a business on the side isnt to be blamed for any thing as Pakistan is so safe and we all no who created and helped Extremist in Pakistan.

Height of hypocrisy.

Indeed.

 

[TaimiKhan]

So ????



Yes very much and there economic value to Pakistan itself is 0 these are non tax paying corporations so you see they contribute nothing to the government.
In most cases they are monopolies and private companies are not allowed to compete with them period.



jobs created by MONOPOLIES cost taxpayers money are not considered Good for the economy and again crown corporations pay zero dollars and zero cents in taxes as usually at the end of the year they ask for money to stay alive.



All over the world Private sector invests in these business and generates profits plus taxes for the governments



Funny you asked Lots of private Money left Pakistan as it was impossible for them to compete with crown corporations for a simple reason they are not granted a License don't believe me try it your self.


??

Taking taxpayers Money isn't considered Investment but taking profits and putting it in foreign bank accounts is considered investing abroad and guess who is holds foreign bank accounts.



same question over and over again



Zero dollars and zero cents



Tax payers subsidized corporations that don't let any body else compete with them don't contribute any thing to the governments.



sales taxes are collected by every business all over the world that's not some thing unique to these people




yeah Pakistan is the economic hub of the world people are dying to invest here as the security situation created by these generals is so favorable that investors have decided to invest in India and china just to be closer to Pakistan as they cant get in Pakistan there is no room left here.



please tell us how many civilians run these organizations




Army generates right there you have answered all your questions Army isn't there to generate any thing its there to defend the Nation.Every thing Army does its comes out of tax payers pockets every thing.




we should be saluting these generals they are running the defense of the nation for free on top they generate taxes and income for the governments so if they take few pennies out of it for themselves you are right what were we thinking.



Most politicians in Pakistan today are all creations of you guessed it the Army we all are familiar with ISI political wing aren't we.and they are there cause they bend backwards to the generals to keep there jobs otherwise they are simply replaced with a general also known as military take over or i am also imagining that and it has never happened.



same thing repeated over and over again



you see that's what most of us here are complaining about corruption




yeah you are right we are wrong General who is getting paid by the taxpayers to defend the nation is running a business on the side isnt to be blamed for any thing as Pakistan is so safe and we all no who created and helped Extremist in Pakistan.




Indeed.

ZERO value post, sorry to be saying that.

Naaa sir hai and naaa paair.

Sorry for wasting your valuable time.

 

[gOtHmOG]

I believe they meant 'retired Generals'. Is you father a retired General?

Nope but I'd have known if it was true. They get around 4 houses and a job after retirement. Compare this with a top ranking official of any civilian or governmental institution then even 25 crore looks like peanuts. I'm talking about the police,WAPDA,judges etc. These civilian institutions allow the top tier officers to gather huge sums of money illegally and nobody points them out. What the Army generals get is NOT illegal or against the law

 

[khurasaan1]

Nope but I'd have known if it was true. They get around 4 houses and a job after retirement. Compare this with a top ranking official of any civilian or governmental institution then even 25 crore looks like peanuts. I'm talking about the police,WAPDA,judges etc. These civilian institutions allow the top tier officers to gather huge sums of money illegally and nobody points them out. What the Army generals get is NOT illegal or against the law

Yea this is true!...
cuz Civilian bureaucracy is too much corrupt more than our thinking.....

 

[Donatello]

Not all, we have had some very good Generals who were either pushed aside and given early retirement or chased out.

Unfortunately, many of the ones who have made it to the top have been of weak character and low morales.

However you cannot criticize the entire institute, it has always had honorable men who were/are a part of it.

I praise all those people who actually sacrifice their living and lives for our country. However i said, Generals. That means, people who are at least 2 star or above. At that stage, they don't have to fight any wars so all they do is make money, loot and plunder for cars, plots and what not. They are sleep in their mansions everyday when the people who write their paychecks, are being killed and murdered.

 

[lynx]

Army's place is in the borders and barracks, not the Parliament/Senate nor is their job to run businesses and factories.

Just my 2 cents.

 

[Mav3rick]

Nope but I'd have known if it was true. They get around 4 houses and a job after retirement. Compare this with a top ranking official of any civilian or governmental institution then even 25 crore looks like peanuts. I'm talking about the police,WAPDA,judges etc. These civilian institutions allow the top tier officers to gather huge sums of money illegally and nobody points them out. What the Army generals get is NOT illegal or against the law

The topic was focussed only on the 'legal' income of Generals which tops at 25-50 Crore, if we start a debate on the 'illegal' income of Military then that is probably a lot more then any ordinary Politician/Bureaucrat or Judge so lets just focus on the 'legal' income in this thread.

As for the 4 houses and jobs and what not, brother why do you want to justify 1 wrong with another? By claiming that Judges, Bureaucrats etc. too get the same on retirement you are merely justifying 1 wrong with another. Furthermore, the Military has most of the prime locations throughout every city which too is unjust, they have compounds, garrisons, head offices within prime civilian areas which too is weird. The military eats up most of our budget, takes up the plumpest and most expensive lands and on top of that they gift pieces of these lands to each other which is ironic especially for such a poor nation.

Certain things may not strictly be 'illegal' but anything beyond the boundaries of 'immoral' and 'unethical' should be revisited by law and corrected!

 

[Mav3rick]

A disputed quote usually attributed to Alexander is:

"I am not afraid of an army of lions led by a sheep, I am afraid of an army of sheep led by a lion"......so purposeful and true! But today the Pakistani version going around of the same quote is:

"An Army of Dogs led by a Lion will fight like Lions and an Army of Lions led by a Dog will Die a Dog's Death!". Ah well.....


Edit: The Pakistani version is going in to my signature

 

[Cheetah786]

ZERO value post, sorry to be saying that.

Naaa sir hai and naaa paair.

Sorry for wasting your valuable time.

LOL I answered the questions from your post

 

[Cheetah786]

Nope but I'd have known if it was true. They get around 4 houses and a job after retirement. Compare this with a top ranking official of any civilian or governmental institution then even 25 crore looks like peanuts. I'm talking about the police,WAPDA,judges etc. These civilian institutions allow the top tier officers to gather huge sums of money illegally and nobody points them out. What the Army generals get is NOT illegal or against the law

They get around 4 houses and a job after retirement

And whats the value of those 4 Houses + severance and a job so they draw salary from Government and get a job in another crown corporation yeah you proved me wrong when u started questioning me about my figures.

Civilian employees can get a million crore don't matter its not taxpayers Money its private cash other crown corporations run by ex military men and political appointees paying themselves handsomely is what called robbery and on top all crown corporations running deficits after being a monopoly tells how qualified these people are.

 

[iPhone]

A lower rank jawan is as bad as Kiyani. They are all rotten to the core.

I will slaughter this holy cow without caring about the sentiments of its worshippers.

Share with us your inside knowledge of how all lower ranking jawans are rotten and corrupt. the jawans who are paid in couple of thousands of rupees of paltry salary but ever so ready to jump in a fight and sacrifice their life. Or maybe your anti-army cheer squad can.

BTW, were you the one suggesting Quaid could have died due to slow poisoning by army generals? And our anti army think tank mindlessly pressing the thank you button at any and every anti army post.

Really, this be-ghairat brigade's antics are pathetically hilarious. They accuse us of believing in conspiracy theories but the moment its a theory of their liking, no matter how ridiculous, they jump in on the band wagon.