General Chuck Yeager and the Pakistan Air Force

[Shinigami]

Yes, but one has to see the improvement in the IAF as well.
PAF pilots such as ACdre Sajjad Haider(who I believe is respected in India as well for his pathankot attack) have said this on the record that the IAF was much much better trained, and better led in 71..not to mention better equipped.
In 65..the IAF was like a flying club.. by the admissions of many Indian historians and frustrated IAF pilots.
in 71, this airforce was executing timed , pin point attacks based on the best intelligence(Bengali defectors) and applying excellent tactics to evade the PAF.. and that has ONLY IMPROVED.

u r a bit wrong here.

the reason many FEEL iaf was more effective in 71 because they co-ordinated very well with the army which was gravely lacking in 65 war, where the IA felt it was "all supreme". there is an interview about this by an IAF marshal in BR. suggest you read this

 

[Kompromat]

Yes, but one has to see the improvement in the IAF as well.
PAF pilots such as ACdre Sajjad Haider(who I believe is respected in India as well for his pathankot attack) have said this on the record that the IAF was much much better trained, and better led in 71..not to mention better equipped.
In 65..the IAF was like a flying club.. by the admissions of many Indian historians and frustrated IAF pilots.
in 71, this airforce was executing timed , pin point attacks based on the best intelligence(Bengali defectors) and applying excellent tactics to evade the PAF.. and that has ONLY IMPROVED.

I remember a gunner who was deployed at PAF base Mushaff said that i looked at air crafts coming in and trying to hit pin point targets. I swore at Bengalis who worked here before shooting at them. According to other sources , some Bangalis actually flew IAF planes into Pakistan.

 

[Joe Shearer]

u r a bit wrong here.

the reason many FEEL iaf was more effective in 71 because they co-ordinated very well with the army which was gravely lacking in 65 war, where the IA felt it was "all supreme". there is an interview about this by an IAF general in BR. suggest you read this

I don't agree.

Starting with the notorious 'understanding' rumoured between Nur Khan and Arjan Singh, the preparations and execution in 1965 were amateurish, compared to 1971. It is partly due to General Chaudhuri's unfortunate disconnect with the Air Force as well, and due to some idiotic decisions like sending the Vampires into front line combat, even in a ground attack role. Formations were caught completely unprepared on the ground, and casualties were great in those first couple of days.

Under P. C. Lal, things were radically different in 1971. For one, the level of training had gone up significantly. For another, there were fewer antique pieces in inventory. For a third, P. C. Lal, under whom I had the honour of serving in his civilian avatar immediately after the war, was not going to be pushed around, and under all his showmanship, Sam Bahadur had too much common sense to irritate Lal, who was far more matter-of-fact and was not an admirer of flamboyance. There were still clashes, but relatively few, and quickly sorted out by both sides. I am among those who feel that Lal was not given adequate recognition for the vastly improved performance of the IAF.

Just my tuppence.

 

[Storm Force]

1971 WAS 41 YEARS AGO

41 years ago PAKISTAN was a strategic ally of USA and was trained & equipped by USA including the first to get sidewinder AAMs in south asia... They got grants military aid and where backed ECONMICALLY by the USA and politically to the point that the USN and 3 carriers where dispatched to STOP india invading EAST PAKISTAN by force if needed.

India in contrast was a RUSSIAN ally well equipped with RUSSIAN fighters that where not as efficient as the PAF mirages & F86 SABRES from USA........


TODAY 41 years later in the YEAR 2012 we live in a different world

PAF is no longer backed to the HILT by USA they have to beg for F16 and spares. PAF is no a CHINEASE eqiupped air power...

Massively under funded and unable to buy large nos of expensive WESTERN hardware.

INDIA is now a regional; ECONOMIC super power, long term ally of USA and the WEST .
EQUIPPED AND trained by USA ISRAEL & FRANCE and indeed RUSSIA.

hI TECH FIGHTERS. awacs satalites SAMS ABMs and big $$$ make IAF a far more battle ready WESTERN trained air force THAN 41 YEARS AGO.

imo PAF is a very weak position WEN you compare 1971 wen USA had her back over indian threat.

GURANTEED paf lack of USA involvement funding less interaction with the WEST due to WOT as COST PAF in training and morale.

FORGET 1971 how good ARE YOU IN 2012 ?????

 

[SQ8]

BUT..
At the same time.. the IAF admits in its official records to losing 75 aircraft to all causes(A2A combat, lost to AAA.. hit on the ground.. accident..etc) in 71. Now yeager was privy to all claims of kills by PAF pilots. Including those investigated by the teams assigned to verify claims(under the pristine judgement and honestly of Patrick Callaghn). So he was privy to details.
In many cases, bogus claims made under the fog of war..without camera footage and witnesses were awarded.
But you know for sure that in your own authors and military historians testament..that people like Acdre Kaiser Tufail have sifted the truth from these and presented it to the world.
So to blame yeager this much , Is infact biased and unfair because he an attaché to the PAF and not the IAF.

u r a bit wrong here.

the reason many FEEL iaf was more effective in 71 because they co-ordinated very well with the army which was gravely lacking in 65 war, where the IA felt it was "all supreme". there is an interview about this by an IAF marshal in BR. suggest you read this

I would offer other Indian historians views.. including that wonderful piece of work known as the "Indo-Pak Air war of 65" by Samir Chopra.. where they have listed countless incidents of sheer confusion, lax and unprofessional attitude displayed by IAF base commanders and leaders during the 65 war.

 

[Kompromat]

1971 WAS 41 YEARS AGO

41 years ago PAKISTAN was a strategic ally of USA and was trained & equipped by USA including the first to get sidewinder AAMs in south asia... They got grants military aid and where backed ECONMICALLY by the USA and politically to the point that the USN and 3 carriers where dispatched to STOP india invading EAST PAKISTAN by force if needed.

India in contrast was a RUSSIAN ally well equipped with RUSSIAN fighters that where not as efficient as the PAF mirages & F86 SABRES from USA........


TODAY 41 years later in the YEAR 2012 we live in a different world

PAF is no longer backed to the HILT by USA they have to beg for F16 and spares. PAF is no a CHINEASE eqiupped air power...

Massively under funded and unable to buy large nos of expensive WESTERN hardware.

INDIA is now a regional; ECONOMIC super power, long term ally of USA and the WEST .
EQUIPPED AND trained by USA ISRAEL & FRANCE and indeed RUSSIA.

hI TECH FIGHTERS. awacs satalites SAMS ABMs and big $$$ make IAF a far more battle ready WESTERN trained air force THAN 41 YEARS AGO.

imo PAF is a very weak position WEN you compare 1971 wen USA had her back over indian threat.

GURANTEED paf lack of USA involvement funding less interaction with the WEST due to WOT as COST PAF in training and morale.

FORGET 1971 how good ARE YOU IN 2012 ?????

Stop writing in capital letters , i get all dizzy.

 

[mylovepakistan]

from bharatrakshak

74 ummmmm...!!!

DONT ALL OF YOU THINK ACTUAL FIGURE WOULD BE CLOSE TO 100 ??? lolx...!

 

[manojb]

So as per chucky Indian army whipped pak army a$$. And Indian navy whipped pak navy A$$...

 

[KRAIT]

Stop writing in capital letters , i get all dizzy.

Reminds me of Joker's dialogue when Batman smacks his head on the table....

@manojb
Its about Pakistani AF...not IA or IN....

 

[Joe Shearer]

BUT..
At the same time.. the IAF admits in its official records to losing 75 aircraft to all causes(A2A combat, lost to AAA.. hit on the ground.. accident..etc) in 71. Now yeager was privy to all claims of kills by PAF pilots. Including those investigated by the teams assigned to verify claims(under the pristine judgement and honestly of Patrick Callaghn). So he was privy to details.
In many cases, bogus claims made under the fog of war..without camera footage and witnesses were awarded.
But you know for sure that in your own authors and military historians testament..that people like Acdre Kaiser Tufail have sifted the truth from these and presented it to the world.
So to blame yeager this much , Is infact biased and unfair because he an attaché to the PAF and not the IAF.

And who's denying that? Whether from IAF records, or the reminiscences of Indian pilots who later reached high rank in the Air Force, everybody knows that the IAF performance in 1965 could have been better. It was redeemed only by the berserker courage of people like Devaiah.

All that some of us are objecting to is the over the top testimonial of this particular nincompoop being introduced into the record. Nobody has had any cavils about Sajjad Haidar's testimony (except, in private, other PAF pilots); nobody disbelieved Kaisar Tufail. The views of the two great chiefs have always been read with respect. Why do you need gora cheerleaders like this one, and his estimate of relative performances which we cannot help linking with his worthless projections of the fighting in general?

And as far as quoting Samir Chopra is concerned, you could but you didn't. You preferred Chucky boy instead. It is your own choice to climb out of the trenches, strip off and do a fandango, but stop complaining about the bullet holes in your gluteus then.

 

[GORKHALI]

gslv mk3: Don't deviate from the topic , i hate issuing infractions , dont make me do it.

Didn't get your point here ? How come a senior member sensible post is offtopic ??
Fact is chuck yugger plane was destroyed in chakala ,so Indian pilots are incompetent ?
Thats human nature ,when we need to take revenge and want to ease our frustration.

P.S- Mod should always be fair play not selective one.

 

[MuZammiL Dr. s[1]n]

I was wating for someone to open a thread on MR.Chuck however it's been done thanks. The trolls are going crazy with hate and damaging their health lolz love this true story of MR.Chuck thanks so much for sharing some people just can't digest the truth jerks.

han tou inn troll-shitters ko ban maaro na for once and for all ...

kutton ko patta dal kar rakhhtay hen , saath bhetah kay apnay bartan men khaana nahi khilaatay hen ...

bartan napaak ho jaata haey ...

Long L|I|ve PakisTan defenCe Forum ...

 

[Joe Shearer]

han tou inn troll-shitters ko ban maaro na for once and for all ...

kutton ko patta dal kar rakhhtay hen , saath bhetah kay apnay bartan men khaana nahi khilaatay hen ...

bartan napaak ho jaata haey ...

Long L|I|ve PakisTan defenCe Forum ...

Most edifying.

Most dogs have better manners, come to that.

 

[GORKHALI]

And who's denying that? Whether from IAF records, or the reminiscences of Indian pilots who later reached high rank in the Air Force, everybody knows that the IAF performance in 1965 could have been better. It was redeemed only by the berserker courage of people like Devaiah.

All that some of us are objecting to is the over the top testimonial of this particular nincompoop being introduced into the record. Nobody has had any cavils about Sajjad Haidar's testimony (except, in private, other PAF pilots); nobody disbelieved Kaisar Tufail. The views of the two great chiefs have always been read with respect. Why do you need gora cheerleaders like this one, and his estimate of relative performances which we cannot help linking with his worthless projections of the fighting in general?

And as far as quoting Samir Chopra is concerned, you could but you didn't. You preferred Chucky boy instead. It is your own choice to climb out of the trenches, strip off and do a fandango, but stop complaining about the bullet holes in your gluteus then.

Saar!Ji! Some more point to add IAF did more sorties to attack and bombard most of their bases so it's natural we got slightly more casulty,in other words after initial aggresion from PAF ,they were cornered in air warfare only and IAF are doing the job as an all rounder CAS,deliever strike package,electronic reconnaissance,defending lines and at last forming full air dominance.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Saar!Ji! Some more point to add IAF did more sorties to attack and bombard most of their bases so it's natural we got slightly more casulty,in other words after initial aggresion from PAF ,they were cornered in air warfare only and IAF are doing the job as an all rounder CAS,deliever strike package,electronic reconnaissance,defending lines and at last forming full air dominance.

Are we talking about 65 or 71?

This was certainly true of 71, not so true of 65.