35k strong Indian Military and 10 Squadrons of IAF were unable to retake all the posts from some irregulars and volunteers of the Pak Army without any logistical support and backup.....what do you call that?
Mis-stated premises: the senior staff of the Pakistan Army (or the Pak Army, if you prefer) spent months plotting and planning this adventure. Thereafter, there were these efforts at convincing the outside world, even of the sister services, that these were merely irregulars and volunteers of the Pak Army, as if we had not been hardened by the Pakistani interpretation of 'volunteering' in 1948, in 1965 and in Afghanistan.
As for logistical support and backup, if we are being told that these 'volunteers' and 'irregulars' marched up to these posts, poured in liquid cement and made them bunkers, and then, in the dead of winter, ploughed the stone summits, grew crops, harvested them and converted them into nutritious food sufficient to hold out for weeks, then the miracle of the loaves and fishes seems to have happened again on the peaks of Kargil.
Might I ask, hesitantly...what do you call that?
Unless you are incapable of logical reasoning, and since you would like to believe only those points of view that suit your ego, think about it for a minute.
It reads as if you are losing your temper, or have lost your temper.
That is a distinct possibility, an incapacity for logical reasoning on my part, and has been very helpfully pointed out by Pakistanis and Indians alike, with greater or lesser urgency. I acknowledge the possibility and hope to live until brain and reasoning transplants are possible. At the moment, this looks bleak, and it is unfortunately the case that what you see is what you'll get.
Sorry. I do wish I had more intelligent parents, and next time around, will try to choose better.
There were like 5k irregulars and volunteers of Pak Army who were occupying those posts and 35k strong Indian Military with the backing of 10 Squadrons of IAF was unable to retake all of those positions.
I believe that all positions have been recovered except three. Does that change the situation to a near-victory, or even a complete victory, for Pakistan and the, err, Pak Army?
And since Pakistan wasn't officially involved, there was no logistical support to those 5k fighters
Must we continue with this fairy tale that even Pakistani school-children would laugh at? This was a full-scope military adventure in the grand tradition by the Pak (sic) Army.
and yet IAF could not retake all the positions despite all their efforts.
I believe that these failures have been taken into account in training, and pilots are now being taught to land supersonic jet fighters on mountain peaks. The next time around, we are thinking of trying the Navy as well. It is time that they understood what the poor foot-soldier has to go through, while they go skylarking around from foreign port to port.
The next thing to ponder is what is the worst that could have happened for Pakistan?
Let me guess: it could become Afghanistan?
The worst that could happen was for all 5k fighters to be martyred, there was nothing more adverse possible!
Drat. Wrong guess.
I suppose since they weren't regulars, such a fate need have bothered no one. 5,000 here, 10,000 there; what's a couple of thousand soldiers between friends? Easy-peasy.
No wonder you win all your wars.
PAF was absent because Pakistan was officially not involved, had Pakistan become involved officially, PAF would have reminded IAF of 1965!
I ALWAYS suspected that Kaisar Tufail was actually a false-flagging Bhutanese! Thanks for confirming that his account was fake, and what you have narrated is the correct story. Just imagine, having to cook up a story to account for the singular absence of the PAF, and all he could come up with was ..... spares! Send him back to Bhutan by the next fast frigate!
I recall that 2 of your fighters did cross the LOC by mistake.........never to return.
One down due to engine failure, one down due to MANPAD fire. We are now counting engine failure as military victory? One lives and learns....Oh, wait! we already finished discussing an incapacity for logical reasoning!
And to give India a real thrashing, all Pakistan had to do was to provide support to those fighters. If 5k fighters could do what they did, imagine what 10-15k fighters would have done. It was an absoute Military victory over India to the point where India was unable to find enough coffins for its KIA, where its KIA were being transported in Garbage trucks.
Not to mention pigs. All they have to do is grow wings and they can fly. How about the Spartans and Philip II? Remind me to tell you the story some time (I have told it already, but it never lessens in impact on re-telling.
Naturally, your five-man bunkers in cramped spaces were all built to replace bunk beds with double storied bunks.
On the other hand, most of the casualties on our side were suffered during retreat.
This is perhaps the most significant military aspect of your analysis. It takes us back to the glorious French victory over the Russians; most of the Grand Army died during retreat. Or the French again, exiting Spain and the Peninsular War. Most of the Imperial Army was lost in retreat.
My fingers tremble with excitement as I turn to the pages of history. Elphinstone's glorious and victorious campaign in the First Afghan War; most of the casualties suffered in retreat. Further back, we have Artaxerxes' grand triumph over Alexander III of Macedon; most of Artaxerxes' army, in his two confrontations with Alexander, suffered their casualties in retreat. The Mahdi's army defending Khartoum; most of the casualties suffered in retreat.
We have re-discovered military history.
Now let us get back to reality and count facts:
1. That the Military won a resounding victory to the point where some of the peaks are still held by Pakistan!
No, she doesn't.
2. That the Pakistani Military victory was overshadowed by Indian Diplomatic victory as our PM proved to be the weak link.
We saw a while earlier what this famous victory was about. The whole world knows what happened, and who rescued whom.
3. That is partially correct, Regular Army was never deployed there, it was non-regulars who were later inducted into regular Army because frankly their dedication and fighting skills were so phenomenal that Pak Army was left impressed.
Is that what serendipity is all about?
4. It was the Indians who were caught dramatizing the dead, their own dead, for the sake of benefit. Height of this was when an Indian soldier was awareded Dharam Veer Chakker who was actually still alive and in a hospital.
What is a Dharam Veer Chakker and who was this person? Is it going to join PA legend?
