GEN.KIYANI's shopping list to CHINA!!!

[Always Neutral]

Just curious ? What currency does Pakistan pay China for its arms.

Regards

 

[Ahassan]

Dear, airbus, sir
I would like to thank you, for your kind information. plz , explore more on that issue, so that all the commrads, can get it more.

Well my friend this was just my opinion as Gen kiyani is senior to me he knows better than all of us what to buy but if you ask me its time for pakistan to buy and upgrade its main offencive capabilities from this i mean upgrading our artillery force as we all know in 1965 war it was due to 3 things we won!!!
that is:
1)ALLAH ALL MIGHTY
2)OUR ARTILLERY FORCE
3)PAKISTAN AIR FORCE

Even if u ask Sir Muradk he is also going to agree with me

U can also see in kargil war how we engaged Indian forces using Artillery, even indian forces agree on this that our Artillery was attacking with pin point point Accuracy!!!

 

[blain2]

Blain,

Do you think we can produce a capable ELINT aircraft based on Chinese Y-8?
Most of avionics used in ELINT can be bought off shelves without restrictions.

Yaar Neo,

ELINT stuff is fairly complicated. Essentially you need stuff that can capture various signal/radar frequencies from all sorts of emitters. I personally think that Pakistan could come up with something in a joint venture type situation but on its own with just COTS components, it may be a bit difficult. We are producing RWRs in house so I do not think it impossible, yet difficult.

I think one person who knows more about the state of ELINT inside Pakistan is X-man. Hopefully he can shed more light on this.

 

[Ahassan]

In my point of view the visit of Gen kiyani is mainly for chinese support in case of US support of Indian Armed Forces(providing them with Sophisticated weapons) & gen Kiyani is going to visit Russia and sweden too!!!

 

[Ahassan]

More over this we need to have these from Ukraine!!!!!


Kolchuga passive sensor:

The Kolchuga passive sensor is an ESM system developed in Ukraine. Its detection range is limited by line-of-sight but may be up to 800 km (500 miles) for very high altitude, very powerful emitters. Frequently referred to as Kolchuga Radar, the system is not really a radar, but an ESM system comprising three or four receivers, deployed tens of kilometres apart, which detect and track aircraft by triangulation and multilateration of their RF emissions.

Kolchuga is able to detect and identify many types of radio devices mounted on ground, airborne, or marine objects. Target detection relies only on an emitter having sufficient power and being within Kolchuga's frequency range. Target identification, however, is more complex and is based on the measurement of different parameters of the transmitted signal—such as its frequency, bandwidth, pulse width, pulse repetition interval, etc. Kolchuga has been reported to use around forty different parameters when identifying a target. These parameters are compared to a database in order to identify both the type of emitter and, in some cases, even the specific piece of equipment (by identifying the unique signature or "fingerprint" that most transmitters have, due to the variations and tolerances in individual components). The database within Kolchuga is said to have the capacity to store around three hundred different types of emitter and up to five hundred specific signatures for each type.

But in Some cases we do have them but not the Ukrainian ones actually the VERA passive sensor from Czech

VERA passive sensor:
VERA -VERA passive radiolocator (in Czech known as Věra) is an electronic support measures (ESM) system that uses measurements of time difference of arrival (TDOA) of pulses at three or four sites to accurately detect and track airborne emitters. It is sometimes incorrectly referred to in the media as a radar.

 

[Ahassan]

Kolchuga is sufficiently sensitive to detect US stealth aircraft from unconventional sources of RF emissions, including radiation from exhaust trails and electromagnetic interference from the engine.

 

[HAIDER]

Interesting news, how Pakistani developing dual surviellance system. A very good experience for Pakistani techs to learnt both American and Chinese systems with European system integration.
Any link to above news ?

 

[Neo]

The problem with Pakistan right now is that it does not have much time, the Great Satan is closing in from all sides. What Pakistan is doing now, it should have done that at least two years back. There's a proverb "A drop in time saves nine", I suppose the Pakistani leadership never imagined that things would come to this, they thought that the Great Satan could never afford to betray Pakistan again and that is the failure of the Pakistani leadership.

Donot refer to USA as the Great Satan, this is a moderate board and we'd like to keep the mullah's away!

 

[fatman17]

^^^guys - defence items are not purchased during the visit of high dignataries, the ground work is completed much earlier by defence procurement commitees. the leaders just sign on the dotted lines. in anycase i dont see any announcement of big-ticket items except for maybe surveillence equipment and discussions on civil nuclear plants.

 

[T-Rex]

Donot refer to USA as the Great Satan, this is a moderate board and we'd like to keep the mullah's away!

So, you call yourself moderate and who calls the power which is responsible for most of the evils of today's world by its true name a 'mullah'. If your "ally" is such a benevolent power I don't understand why you Pakistanis are so upset about its recent actions, I don't understand why you people have such sinister thoughts about the "pure" intentions of your "ally". It is quite clear that you do not have any reservations about that "ally", you're too busy keeping your name in the good-book of your benevolent "ally", but even after all that your "ally" somehow thinks you're not sincere in fighting terrorism. Would you please elucidate why your "ally" chronically has such low faith in Pakistan ?

 

[Neo]

FYI I have no love for USA nor do I cosider her to be an ally of Pakistan but thats irrelevant.
You're asked not to degrade this board by calling names, thats all.

On personal note, try decafe for the change.

 

[shehbazi2001]

Surveillance Radars

Detection and Tracking are keywords........through fixed or ground-based radars, AEW and ELINT aircrafts. Now thats not some extra redundancy. If an intruding aircraft goes to low level, its AEW that shall detect it instead of ground-based ones.

When AEW is not available in a certain area, ELINT aircraft can provide detection using passive methods. ELINT aircrafts can potentially give a more long-range detection capability.

If an intruder turns off its radar and radio ie attacks in radio silence, ground-based radar and AEW should be able to detect them.

Bi-static capability can be introduced in both ground-based radars and our AEW platforms too. This shall give them advantage in detecting stealth aircraft and shall make them resistant to jamming.

For surveillance radars, there are some important parameters. First, 31 operating frequencies are USELESS if they are in the same band. If these 31 frequencies of JY-14 radar belong to different bands like 4-5 belonging to I-band (old X-band), 5-6 belonging to G-band (old C-band) and then some in lower B or C-band (called P-band in old system), then its ok.

Jammers and anti-radiation missiles specially work in certain bands...and all frequencies in one band are then covered.....

Secondly, the beam width (main lobe)....thats important because beam width plays central role in capability to identify individual aircrafts flying in a tight formation....

4-5 fighters flying closely at 100km from a radar may seem to be just one aircraft on radar screen...only a radar with a very narrow beam shall be able to do it....Its difficult to achieve because beam width increases with range.....

Then comes the side lobes and back lobes of a radar.......they play important role in jamming.....they should be reduced to minimum as compared to the main lobe....some anti-radiation missiles use these side-lobes for guidance...

Then is the sheer power output of radar......the more powerful a radar, the less effective is noise jamming technique...and more is the burn-through range of the radar against jammer....

PAF has got the jammers, they can do field trails of burn-through range....and sorting of tight formation...we can fly a tight formation of 4 fighters at distances of 150km, 100km and 50km range and then see at which range actually the radar picks up individual aircrafts.

Then a modular design,whereby the antenna can be replaced easily and quickly if destroyed by anti-radiation missile/drone attack......

The anti-radiation FT-2000 shall be valuable if its anti-radiation guidance is combined with all-aspect Infra-rad (heat-seeking) guidance in the terminal 4-5 kilometer range.

For HQ-9, if chinese are able to install one more guidance algorithm with option to launch the SAM on any of the two guidance options....

First option can be the present method of command in mid-course and TVM in terminal phase with one other method in option. This way when two shots are fired at an intruder in ripple fire and he counters one, he shall fall prey to other shot which is coming with a different guidance scheme.

Other methods can be to retain a single guidance method but the SAM should have the capability to launch two missiles at an aircraft while each one is guided by different frequencies of separate bands....this may mean at least two engagement radars within SAM battery or a single fire-control radar with this capability...

To improve kill probability against low-flying targets, I think that ONE fire-control radar be mounted on either a baloon or giraffe-radar type mount to better cover the earth's curvature....

So if we are using two fire-control radars in one battery, one can be on ground, other on the giraffe-type mount or on a baloon.

The ability to switch guidance from one fire-control radar to another for a missile which is already in the air,shall be an add-on towards becoming a real air defence.

Suppose a target is being engaged by a fire-control radar based on ground, the target aircraft dives down and goes below radar cover. Now if its possible to hand-over the missile in the air to the other balloon-mounted or mast-mounted fire-control radar, it shall make this engagement a success.

If all of the above techniques are combined, it SHOULD be a very capable SAM.

 

[batmannow]

So, you call yourself moderate and who calls the power which is responsible for most of the evils of today's world by its true name a 'mullah'. If your "ally" is such a benevolent power I don't understand why you Pakistanis are so upset about its recent actions, I don't understand why you people have such sinister thoughts about the "pure" intentions of your "ally". It is quite clear that you do not have any reservations about that "ally", you're too busy keeping your name in the good-book of your benevolent "ally", but even after all that your "ally" somehow thinks you're not sincere in fighting terrorism. Would you please elucidate why your "ally" chronically has such low faith in Pakistan ?

Dear T-Rex, sir
I personly feel, that u get carried away by the emotions, but i still think, that you have a good sprit, i realy want to see more out put from you on the issue, rather than some emotional, thoughts.
plz, just follow the rules,so we can have more important issues to think, as you couldbe a very great addition to ths fourm, i wish you good luck.
plz just , just stay on the topic.
thanks a lot, sir

 

[batmannow]

Surveillance Radars

Detection and Tracking are keywords........through fixed or ground-based radars, AEW and ELINT aircrafts. Now thats not some extra redundancy. If an intruding aircraft goes to low level, its AEW that shall detect it instead of ground-based ones.

When AEW is not available in a certain area, ELINT aircraft can provide detection using passive methods. ELINT aircrafts can potentially give a more long-range detection capability.

If an intruder turns off its radar and radio ie attacks in radio silence, ground-based radar and AEW should be able to detect them.

Bi-static capability can be introduced in both ground-based radars and our AEW platforms too. This shall give them advantage in detecting stealth aircraft and shall make them resistant to jamming.

For surveillance radars, there are some important parameters. First, 31 operating frequencies are USELESS if they are in the same band. If these 31 frequencies of JY-14 radar belong to different bands like 4-5 belonging to I-band (old X-band), 5-6 belonging to G-band (old C-band) and then some in lower B or C-band (called P-band in old system), then its ok.

Jammers and anti-radiation missiles specially work in certain bands...and all frequencies in one band are then covered.....

Secondly, the beam width (main lobe)....thats important because beam width plays central role in capability to identify individual aircrafts flying in a tight formation....

4-5 fighters flying closely at 100km from a radar may seem to be just one aircraft on radar screen...only a radar with a very narrow beam shall be able to do it....Its difficult to achieve because beam width increases with range.....

Then comes the side lobes and back lobes of a radar.......they play important role in jamming.....they should be reduced to minimum as compared to the main lobe....some anti-radiation missiles use these side-lobes for guidance...

Then is the sheer power output of radar......the more powerful a radar, the less effective is noise jamming technique...and more is the burn-through range of the radar against jammer....

PAF has got the jammers, they can do field trails of burn-through range....and sorting of tight formation...we can fly a tight formation of 4 fighters at distances of 150km, 100km and 50km range and then see at which range actually the radar picks up individual aircrafts.

Then a modular design,whereby the antenna can be replaced easily and quickly if destroyed by anti-radiation missile/drone attack......

The anti-radiation FT-2000 shall be valuable if its anti-radiation guidance is combined with all-aspect Infra-rad (heat-seeking) guidance in the terminal 4-5 kilometer range.

For HQ-9, if chinese are able to install one more guidance algorithm with option to launch the SAM on any of the two guidance options....

First option can be the present method of command in mid-course and TVM in terminal phase with one other method in option. This way when two shots are fired at an intruder in ripple fire and he counters one, he shall fall prey to other shot which is coming with a different guidance scheme.

Other methods can be to retain a single guidance method but the SAM should have the capability to launch two missiles at an aircraft while each one is guided by different frequencies of separate bands....this may mean at least two engagement radars within SAM battery or a single fire-control radar with this capability...

To improve kill probability against low-flying targets, I think that ONE fire-control radar be mounted on either a baloon or giraffe-radar type mount to better cover the earth's curvature....

So if we are using two fire-control radars in one battery, one can be on ground, other on the giraffe-type mount or on a baloon.

The ability to switch guidance from one fire-control radar to another for a missile which is already in the air,shall be an add-on towards becoming a real air defence.

Suppose a target is being engaged by a fire-control radar based on ground, the target aircraft dives down and goes below radar cover. Now if its possible to hand-over the missile in the air to the other balloon-mounted or mast-mounted fire-control radar, it shall make this engagement a success.

If all of the above techniques are combined, it SHOULD be a very capable SAM.

Dear shehbazi2001; sir
thanks for your priceless input, but what do you mean.... is it, that systems i put forward , are good to get?

 

[shehbazi2001]

Dear shehbazi2001; sir
thanks for your priceless input, but what do you mean.... is it, that systems i put forward , are good to get?

We dont have the required information to decide. Its not very straight forward. We may suggest them some modifications and improvements to get a tailor-made solution.

Therefore field trials should be done to test the performance like for the radar, whether it can pick up individual aircrafts in a tight formation and that too at which range? and other tests that I mentioned in the post like whether it can operate on frequencies of different bands etc...

HQ-9 too needs field trails and the results of field trials shall show us whether its good enough. We can check it against certain criteria for example as I mentioned in my above post about level of side lobes, back lobes, resistance to jamming etc.....or other criteria about SAMs that I have written in many other threads too....

For FT-2000, India would be getting a few AWACS or any country shall bring only a few AWACS to support fighters.....purchasing whole batteries for this purpose seems a bit of overdose.....

and if the FT-2000 becomes clueless once radar is shut down.....then I think its value is reduced if not finished...unless as I mentioned, some IR guidance is also put into it.....it may still achieve a soft kill by shutting down the radar of AWACS........fighters normally attack in radio silence and against them it shall not be very effective.....

In air combat, we cant use it because radars of our fighters shall also be ON.