Gen. Kiyani rebuffs Clinton

[S-2]

We're such puppies compared to these guys-always.

Nice to know that however "depraved and immoral" our forces are, there's always going to be one neo-imperialist nation that takes the cake-

Russian Death Squads "Pulverise" Chechans-London Times

Makes for some gross reading.

These guys must have one morose and sick sense of humor and a hell of an appetite for vodka to sleep at night.

 

[Ratus Ratus]

I don’t think that Gen Kayani is either stupid or full of hot air as some here would state.

He has made it very clear that the Army is under control of the government and that is YOUR problem.
He has also not hinted at any moves about a coup as again he has made it clear he intends to keep the Army out of politics.

BUT he does make it very clear that he will not move till the government decides to have a real military intervention in this matter. YOUR government has NOT made that decision.
Why? Because it is too week and there is no collective consensus on how to move forward.

Ref: A new resolve?.
DAWN.COM | Pakistan | A new resolve?

WITH districts around Swat seemingly falling like ninepins, the state has been shockingly ambivalent about it plans to restore its writ in northern Pakistan. But yesterday it appeared that the Pakistan Army has finally awoken from its slumber. The message from the chief himself, Gen Kayani: the militants will not be allowed to run amok and order will be restored. So far the army’s wait-and-watch policy in Malakand division has had dangerous consequences. Buner is now in the militants’ hands and IDPs are pouring into neighbouring districts, especially Swabi, Mardan and Haripur. Meanwhile, Shangla has been penetrated by the militants and Swabi and Mardan are the next likely targets. Shrewdly taking advantage of the cessation in hostilities in the valley, militants from Swat fanned out into neighbouring areas, expanding the theatre in which they will have to be taken on and ensuring that an even messier fight lies ahead.

Why has the army waited? It claims the ‘operational pause’ was meant to give a chance to the forces of reconciliation and not as a concession to the militants. Now that the army has sensed the panic among the people and seen the militants’ determination to expand their territorial control, it has pledged to achieve ‘victory’ against terrorism and militancy ‘at all costs.’ We hope this resolve will not melt in the days ahead. But two points regarding the overall war against militancy need to be flagged. One, the army has been particularly agitated by the recent spate of foreign comments that Pakistan is on the verge of collapse and that the army is unwilling or unable to defeat militancy. Gen Kayani’s forceful statement that the army ‘never has and never will hesitate to sacrifice, whatever it may take, to ensure [the] safety and well-being’ of Pakistan’s people and its territorial integrity should be noted in foreign capitals. Whatever the suspicions, the Pakistan Army is an indispensable element in any successful strategy against militancy in Pakistan and the region generally, and riling the army high command to score a few public points cannot be part of a sound strategy.

The second point concerns the political component here in Pakistan. While the Pakistan Army isn’t under the full control of the civilians, it has made it clear that it will only fight when there is a political consensus for it to do so. Thus far the politicians have been woefully divided; whether the dissenters blame America as the root cause of militancy or harp on about fuzzy ideas of dialogue, they have not been able to unite on the need to take on the militants militarily. That discord may finally be changing. The PML-N, the PML-Q and the religious parties have voiced concerns about militants on the march, while the MQM has come out as the foremost critic of the peace deal in Swat. It is not clear yet whether they will support the military option, but the army cannot fail to note that the politicians are at last beginning to agree on the seriousness of the threat of militancy.


It is up to your government to make the decision. Blame them and their inabilities not the General.

You need to get your government and all the so called political parties on the same net. Somewhat impossible but it may be worth a try. One day.

 

[All-Green]

This is similar to the statement by PAF about its capability to shoot down the Drones which according to our Defense Minister "cannot be shot down by Pakistan"
Whereas we are all irked by the lack of resolve and continuity of any form of strategy on part of all responsible...it is time we pause, take a breath and remember the troubled history in which ARMY has been blamed for being more than 50% responsible...with this heavy baggage Kiyani has to be careful in how Army action is perceived by the people of Pakistan...lest ARMY is seen as following its own agenda and towing foreign line which is not supported by Legitimate Government of the people!

What Kiyani is trying to do is to openly declare willingness to fight a bloody and prolonged war with the support of a democratically elected government to ensure that there is no backlash from the public which ruins the solidarity of Pakistan.
He is actually asking the government to take a tough stand and not be cowed into submission.
He is trying to give backbone to the spineless battalion strength parliament which we have elected!!!
It really is a pathetic time.
The ANP and its champions of democracy are just scared and want to save their hides.
When the debate was started on Nizam e Adal and the manner in which it was being forced upon the government and the people...ANP leaders started making hue and cry that Pakhtuns are being slaughtered...please help us stop the slaughter...just approve it...
Great ANP forget that all Pakistanis are being slaughtered by TTP...they almost make it like an ethnic crime if GOP does not bend over to TTP....this is the most pathetic thing i could see...ANP has never been a true Pakistan centric party...no wonder things are going from bad to worse...
I cannot blame Kiyani completely for inaction, how could he act when all such great leaders were crying to give Peace and Sufi Muhammad a chance?
Had Army moved on its own against this agreement it would have been a mistake with severe repercussions...it would have been painted as anti Pashtun action by ANP to already flame an already sensitive area...the risk was too great for PA to move...
However one thing which could have been done was to deploy battalions in all the surrounding districts at all key strategic locations. This would have been done to guard the peace and counter any TTP actions and efforts to expand their influence.

Now TTP had made a strategic mistake in moving in on neighboring areas against the peace agreement...tactically it was part of their scare the **** out of the masses campaign but strategically they made a blunder...
It was a great opportunity for GOP to malign Taliban mentality and get people on board the anti TTP express but what happened...everyone was sleeping on it...no jumping up and down by ministers and no statements to the effect that TTP has broken the agreement and now shall face the consequences for their treachery and betraying the sincerety of Pakistan State and people...no letting the people know that this is to be expected from this Army of Darkness and that together we can and we should throw these demons back into the oblivion...No surrender no retreat!
Instead a DCO pissing in his pants and some Mullahs who are trying to pass on as local elders are trying to convince us that Buner was and is fine...don't worry they say...we all got a few kicks by seeing our local law enforcement agents getting killed...just a small misunderstanding...Now the foreign Taliban are going and only the local Taliban are left...Local Taliban being of course the legitimate presence which we should all bend over to...Pathetic!

The fifth column support to TTP in the form of Mullahs and madrassas need to be strictly monitored/countered by agencies and in any area with big Madrassas, adequate police, FC and even ARMY should be deployed to ensure GOOD WILL from the potential local Taliban supporters.

GOP needs to wake up...why is it always a dictator who makes tough decisions in this country...i think this is because the esteemed parliament is full of people who are only reactive and cannot think beyond their own petty personal agendas...when threatened directly with force like the ANP...they shall cry and try to extend their trouble free political life by appeasing Taliban and trying to have a working relationship...can you have a working relationship with terrorists?
Can you make bed partners with the murderers of your children?
I have never liked MQM but hats off to Farooq Sattar for making his speech in Assembly against TTP and the deals...atleast MQM has not been cowed into submission...and i think the bigger parties should be ashamed and need to realize their strength before it vanishes due to their own lethargic attitude and inaction...

TTP is only as strong as the room for maneuver that is being offered to it by GOP...make them run...make them fight...make them bleed...make them pay a price for their actions...bomb their posts, vehicles and headquarters...make them face superior numbers at most fronts...capture their commanders and release video tapes of their confessions to the media...play it on state run Anti Terrorism Channel which should be established asap...capture them and try them in terrorist courts and give them death penalty and hang them at every damn place where they have bombed/murdered innocent Pakistanis!

The ideology of TTP is terrorism...deal with them and you will never get far...fight with them and they can be defeated...really not much is needed to reach a decision but then again here is another reason which we shall remember as to why Pakistani Democracy fails...it fails because it cannot even make timely decisions...let alone follow them through with solid actions...

My sincerest wishes are that this Government announces what it has learnt in dealing with TTP and what is the decision going forward in this War we should be fighting but are still shy in admitting to ourselves...break the farce and let us tackle reality!

Democracy is the best revenge...i think TTP will readily agree with this silly quote from our current elected party and i see nothing more pathetic than this...
fault is not with democracy...it is with the democratically elected and contracted foreign consultants which we seem to have hired...who mint a lot of money but in the end are not part of the company it seems...and do not think they will go down when the company sinks...sad indeed.

 

[Kharian_Beast]

We're such puppies compared to these guys-always.

Nice to know that however "depraved and immoral" our forces are, there's always going to be one neo-imperialist nation that takes the cake-

Russian Death Squads "Pulverise" Chechans-London Times

Makes for some gross reading.

These guys must have one morose and sick sense of humor and a hell of an appetite for vodka to sleep at night.

Nothing new in warfare.

 

[yuka]

Whereas we are all irked by the lack of resolve and continuity of any form of strategy on part of all responsible...it is time we pause, take a breath and remember the troubled history in which ARMY has been blamed for being more than 50% responsible...with this heavy baggage Kiyani has to be careful in how Army action is perceived by the people of Pakistan...lest ARMY is seen as following its own agenda and towing foreign line which is not supported by Legitimate Government of the people!

 

[Patriot]

I think PPP won't give orders to Army for full fledge war because PPP Ministers are worried that if anything goes wrong then Pakistan's People Party will die for ever and will never ever win election again.In my opinion, there should be elections soon and a popular government possibly Nawaz Sharif should give orders for full fledge war and hire good PR guys so nation actually support army.If General Kiyani goes ahead without civillian orders then Army will be blamed for everything.

 

[All-Green]

Whereas we are all irked by the lack of resolve and continuity of any form of strategy on part of all responsible...it is time we pause, take a breath and remember the troubled history in which ARMY has been blamed for being more than 50% responsible...with this heavy baggage Kiyani has to be careful in how Army action is perceived by the people of Pakistan...lest ARMY is seen as following its own agenda and towing foreign line which is not supported by Legitimate Government of the people!

I think you just quoted a para from my post with some added animation for general amusement...hope that's not all you intended to post.

 

[Jihad]

Strong statement behind closed doors.
Right, how convincing.
Are we supposed to drool over this? Like "Wow!, Gen. Kiyani has replied strongly to Mrs. Clinton, awesome".

Where are the results for crying out loud, Hillary Clinton has all the right to call our actions against the Taliban ineffective and incompetent.
We are giving in to their demands simply because we are AFRAID.
Miss. Clinton is also 100% correct when she says that the Pakistani government is losing it's credibility in the fight against Taliban.
I can't oppose her statements, she sounds frustrated and correct at the same time about this whole situation.
Ohwell, Pakistan's credibility faded away a long time ago when our beloved Zardari came in charge.

 

[BaburCM]

That's exactly what we need. A firm and resolute stance. These Americans only have a loose mouth, but no concrete plan or action. Exactly the reason why they also failed to achieve anything in Iraq. Anyone déjà vu? We should pursue our own action. I salute Kiyani! In these stressful times we need a strong statement.

 

[Jihad]

That's exactly what we need. A firm and resolute stance. These Americans only have a loose mouth, but no concrete plan or action. Exactly the reason why they also failed to achieve anything in Iraq. Anyone déjà vu? We should pursue our own action. I salute Kiyani!

And what has our "own action" given us or achieved for us so far?
Not saying that we should follow America's "action" or "path", however, I assume that implementing Sharia law in SWAT was part of our "action"?

What has it brought us?

 

[BaburCM]

And what has our "own action" given us or achieved for us so far?
Not saying that we should follow America's "action" or "path", however, I assume that implementing Sharia law in SWAT was part of our "action"?

What has it brought us?

Of course, we should be critical of our inactions. Nevertheless, the general has made a fair point which is that we should pursue our own course due to US bickering which isn't helpful at all. The implementation of so-called Sharia in Swat was a disaster and should have been intervened. You can find my previous posts on this forum in which I have severely criticized our governments role on the Swat issue. In fact, I've been lambasted by a few members of this forum for having such a view. I still believe that we need to have one common law across Pakistan. We cannot have separate laws. It just doesn't work and Swat is a good example.

 

[All-Green]

I think PPP won't give orders to Army for full fledge war because PPP Ministers are worried that if anything goes wrong then Pakistan's People Party will die for ever and will never ever win election again.In my opinion, there should be elections soon and a popular government possibly Nawaz Sharif should give orders for full fledge war and hire good PR guys so nation actually support army.If General Kiyani goes ahead without civillian orders then Army will be blamed for everything.

NS is just popular because he has been making best of the political turmoil recently...can he take on TTP and their kind?
His statements have been to please most in Pakistan but sadly he is not enough of a warrior to take on TTP with an unflinching and relentless assault on their atrocities and terrorist ideology.

Do we have one current leader who will stand up and say the following?

"There is only one law in Pakistan and nobody has the right to change it other than the elected reps within the framework established by the constitution of Pakistan.
I will not allow any Taliban like mentality to prevail in Pakistan, Pakistan is not a test bed for implementing self styled shariah or any other law which has not been approved by the Parliament and Islamic council.
I will not allow the Mullah and Madrassas to play a negative role in our society, Government shall regulate all these Mullahs and madrassas and anyone found promoting hate and warmongering shall be dealt with in an exemplary fashion!
Anyone who causes lawlessness shall do so at the bane of their life, regardless of whatever cause they are claiming to serve"


I really do not think NS can in a million years muster enough courage to say these things, actually anyone who says these things shall have to be one hell of a great leader with complete confidence in his abilities and a clear conscience.
His younger brother is more capable in dealing with terrorists but still NS will never let the younger one take a shot at the top slot.

His priority is to remove the ban on third term for a prime minister...ever wonder why he is so much focused on this thing other than any issue...because he cares for only one thing....sad to see but it is the reality.

 

[Patriot]

NS is just popular because he has been making best of the political turmoil recently...can he take on TTP and their kind?
His statements have been to please most in Pakistan but sadly he is not enough of a warrior to take on TTP with an unflinching and relentless assault on their atrocities and terrorists ideology.

Do we have one current leader who will stand up and say that

"There is only one law in Pakistan and nobody has the right to change it other than the elected reps within the framework established by the constitution of Pakistan.
I will not allow any Taliban like mentality to prevail in Pakistan, Pakistan is not a test bed for implementing self styled shariah or any other law which has not been approved by the Parliament and Islamic council.
I will not allow the Mullah and Madrassas to play a negative role in our society, Government shall regulate all these Mullahs and madrassas and anyone found promoting hate and warmongering shall be dealt with in an exemplary fashion!
Anyone who causes lawlessness shall do so at the bane of their life, regardless of whatever cause they are claiming to serve"

I really do not think NS can in a million years muster enough courage to say these things, actually anyone who says these things shall have to be one hell of a great leader with complete confidence in his abilities and a clear conscience.
His younger brother is more capable in dealing with terrorists but still NS will never let the younger one take a shot at the top slot.

His priority is to remove the ban on third term for a prime minister...ever wonder why he is so much focused on this thing other than any issue...because he cares for only one thing....sad to see but it is the reality.

Well, IMO ISI and Army should use him as a pawn and fight the war.

 

[ajpirzada]

no one can give orders for a full scale war unless pakistanis come fwd and decide to back their gov. and especially pashtuns, in whoz land this war is to be fought. remember our army is also scared of pashtun backlash which might give rise to pashtunistan movement. to make sure that this doesnt happen gov is doin wateva possible to bring peace in the region. ppl of swat said that if shariah is brought to swat then talibans will give up arms and peace will be restored. gov did that but talibans didnt keep their word. rather they started moving into other areas. now wat do u think, whom will ppl support. gov or talibans?? ppl who were previously against military operation have now started to think if not already made up their mind in favour of military operation. american policy makers are mostly arrogant and apparently they are not ready to take some painful steps which will trun ppl against talibans.
this time when FC attacked militants in lower dir, ppl were chanting slogans in favour of FC (according to ISPR). would u have imagined this if demands of ppl werent fulfilled?? army and gov are both workin on the same strategy and they both are on the same side of the page. for the first time i will say that i support GoP on how they are dealin with the crisis

 

[SSGPA1]

I think PPP won't give orders to Army for full fledge war because PPP Ministers are worried that if anything goes wrong then Pakistan's People Party will die for ever and will never ever win election again.In my opinion, there should be elections soon and a popular government possibly Nawaz Sharif should give orders for full fledge war and hire good PR guys so nation actually support army.If General Kiyani goes ahead without civillian orders then Army will be blamed for everything.

I hope that NS comes to power ASAP so that people can see real NS!

NS and Zardari are not leaders, Musharraf, with all his faults, is still the only leader Pakistan has.

He will kill and die for this country, I hope that he comes back in power before it is too late.