Gandhara Civilization,Trademark of Pakistan

[divya]

A lot of gandharis out here with a eyes covered with dellusion

 

[sab]

So what's your point. Is Ganga valley civilization older than Indus valley civilization?

No lol, just serious discussion please.


peace.

So what they were??? Christian before birth of Christ? or Muslims before birth of Muhammad?

 

[sab]

The Indus civilization spreaded much beyond Indus valley. From present day's Afghanistan, Baluchistan, Sindh, Punjub, Manda near Jammu, Gujrat and North Maharashtra in the south. SO making it Indian or Pakistani as per present political border is ultimate stupidity.

 

[paritosh]

It's a good thing that the Pakistanis are finding pride in an ancient hindu civilization...it's akin to maybe our finding pride in the great mughals...
They are better than those Talibs who destroyed the Bamiyan by stating the statues to be anti-islamic...
i am sure the mullahs in Pak would not want anything hindu to be revered.

 

[Peshwa]

Sir,

You are absolutely wrong at that----there was criticism from pakistan and all the muslim community----just for example----when arab became muslim---before that there were stone idols in ka'aba----prophet Mohammad didnot order the destruction of those idols out of respect for the believers----.

That act of destruction was carried out by fanatics---which are present inevery community ans society.

Now as for owning upto to gandhara civilization---so who needs to own up to it---the locals or someone from mumbai---chennai or kolkata---come on buddy---it is ours----whatever we want to make up of it----it is for us to do it---whenever we want to acknowledge it---it is upto us to chose the time and date----the place already belongs to us----it existed in our geography----.

Every nation needs to learn and acknowledge its identity in their own time and in their on space---it upsets you very much to see that happen---!!!!

You are absolutely wrong Mr. Mastan Khan.....

Aren't you forgetting something called partition, the mass exodus of indigenous people that were forced out of their land due to the birth of a theocratic state?

If Pakistan was born on the need to protect the rights of the Islamic people of the subcontinent, then it fails to be about regionalism and ethnicity as you make it out to be....
Because the Gandhara kingdom comprised of only northern Pakistan and Afghanistan (Peshawar valley).....So with your theory only the people of those ethnicities that fall within the lands of the known boundaries of Ghandhara can claim it...NOT all Pakistanis like yourself who may have been from Sindh, Punjab or Balochistan.
An average Pakistani cannot claim any shared history with those people just because it fell within your land since your country was meant to bring the people of a religion together...not of a region.

Secondly....
Arent you forgetting the Millions of Hindus that moved out of those areas that did so during partition, exodus during Taliban insurgency that hail from the region and have called those lands their home before moving out? Those people probably have more in common with the Gandhara people than the other stock in that area...
Many of these people identify themselves as indians.....why do you forget those people just because they are a minority now? They have equal rights over that history as well and dont agree with your view of a "Pakistan tag" to it....

Lastly....
The lands you reside on currently was where the birth of Hinduism began...It is like Muslms not living in Saudi Arabia losing the importance of the holy land...
Similarly...Indus Valley Civilization etc will always be of importance to many Indians

Shared history is the acceptable term as it is NOT within the Pakistani right to change history....It has already been written!

 

[RezRoll]

I wasn't planning to revisit this place till I saw Jana's comment, so let me go ahead.

ancient india, ancient india = pakistan + modern hindustan

as taj mehal belongs to india, gandhara belongs to pakistan and its people who are the decedents of ancient gandharra

By this logic, then yes, i agree with you, bro.

But I don't think Taj Mahel is just an exclusive history of the Indians. I've been there before and it looks alot more Islamic than Indian with it's Quranic writing by it's entrance and all. In my personal believe, any Muslim from South Asia can claim the Taj Mahel as part of it's history. History is not like land or property where it has to be exclusively belong to one person or party. Anyone can claim history if they feel they are part of it

first of all you should take up your own Indian flag.

secondly there was NO India with current tricolor before 47.

Period

Oh Jana, yang masih tak berwibawa, macam mana saya nak menerangkan semua ini kepada u?

Firstly, as a premium member, you should start responding to people by the contents of their post, rather then just calling everyone who does not agree with you as Indian or whatever crap you can come with. It's been a couple of times I've been noticing you doing the same thing.

I'm not Indian..but perhaps maybe you're forgetting what you were called 70 years back

Secondly, you remind me of a dumb guy i met once who told me there is no Palestine because there was never a nation-state of Palestine before Israel was made there. Too bad for him, that region was always called Palestine well before any Jews came there so his logic is fail.

There was never a Malaysia nation too before 1957, we were just 13 states with different kings, but the region was always called Malaya.

There was never an India nation state with defined borders before 1947, but what was the region called before 1947? It requires simple logic to answer that.

Anyway none of this history concerns me so I'm not interested in responding anymore. I'm out of here

 

[Roybot]

I wasn't planning to revisit this place till I saw Jana's comment, so let me go ahead.



By this logic, then yes, i agree with you, bro.

But I don't think Taj Mahel is just an exclusive history of the Indians. I've been there before and it looks alot more Islamic than Indian with it's Quranic writing by it's entrance and all. In my personal believe, any Muslim from South Asia can claim the Taj Mahel as part of it's history. History is not like land or property where it has to be exclusively belong to one person or party. Anyone can claim history if they feel they are part of it

Islamic can be Indian too. I mean there are 150 Million Indians who are muslims!

 

[RezRoll]

Islamic can be Indian too. I mean there are 150 Million Indians who are muslims!

Okay, Taj Mahal is for both Muslims and Hindus of the sub-continent. Happy?

History can be shared, bro. Sharing is caring

 

[Roybot]

Okay, Taj Mahal is for both Muslims and Hindus of the sub-continent. Happy?

History can be shared, bro. Sharing is caring

Okay, Taj Mahal is for both Indians and Pakistanis of the sub-continent. There fixed it.

So is every other thing in the erstwhile India

 

[jayron]

I did not find a single shred of criticism coming from Pakistan when the 'good old Taliban' ruined the Bamian Buddhas that were the brightest sign of Gandhara style art. Rather, many quarters in Pakistan actually condoned and appreciated the act, for 'such depiction of human form was a representative of Paganism'.

And today, just for the heck of it, every Pakistani here is owning it up as if they personally presided over the formation of Gandhara.

Pakistan's Gandhara Civilization... yea right !

The second most important Gandharan archeological site is in Swat, Pakistan. It was recently vandalized by Pakistanis because they were ashamed of their heritage.

 

[Roybot]

@ Jayron

I would blame the Taliban for that though. The fact that statue was safe and unharmed till 2007 says a lot about the Swati people.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/6991058.stm

 

[MastanKhan]

You are absolutely wrong Mr. Mastan Khan.....

Aren't you forgetting something called partition, the mass exodus of indigenous people that were forced out of their land due to the birth of a theocratic state?

If Pakistan was born on the need to protect the rights of the Islamic people of the subcontinent, then it fails to be about regionalism and ethnicity as you make it out to be....
Because the Gandhara kingdom comprised of only northern Pakistan and Afghanistan (Peshawar valley).....So with your theory only the people of those ethnicities that fall within the lands of the known boundaries of Ghandhara can claim it...NOT all Pakistanis like yourself who may have been from Sindh, Punjab or Balochistan.
An average Pakistani cannot claim any shared history with those people just because it fell within your land since your country was meant to bring the people of a religion together...not of a region.

Secondly....
Arent you forgetting the Millions of Hindus that moved out of those areas that did so during partition, exodus during Taliban insurgency that hail from the region and have called those lands their home before moving out? Those people probably have more in common with the Gandhara people than the other stock in that area...
Many of these people identify themselves as indians.....why do you forget those people just because they are a minority now? They have equal rights over that history as well and dont agree with your view of a "Pakistan tag" to it....

Lastly....
The lands you reside on currently was where the birth of Hinduism began...It is like Muslms not living in Saudi Arabia losing the importance of the holy land...
Similarly...Indus Valley Civilization etc will always be of importance to many Indians

Shared history is the acceptable term as it is NOT within the Pakistani right to change history....It has already been written!

Sir,

I appreciate your comments----this history is indeed of the people who were from that area but had to migrate under duress---but you also need to understand---those migrations had been happening in this area for thousand of years---in different forms---in form of extinction through execution by the invading armies or just migrating in front of the coming armies.

Either they were forced to or moved on their own---those people found new places to start up----just the americas / australia / new zealand etc----people had to move out of europe by force or otherwise---in the due process of time, they have created their own history in the lands that they have settled in.

In the sub-continent as migration had happened so recently and we are still attached to each other physically----this sense of ownership will not fade away till eternity---as both the sides have their precious religious sites that they visit or want to visit---and the sense of attachment is still very strong---even though the emotions are extremely raw---as it shows from these discussion on this board---there is one thing that cannot be denied---pakistan and pakistanis, somehow want to take ownership of what they have and on what they are sitting on and that is a good thing in happening.

 

[notsuperstitious]

If there is no shared history, first rename PNS Tippu Sultan to PNS Ghazi Ilm-ud-din Shaheed!

@ Mastankhan, I think its good if Pakistanis embrace their past, its a positive development. But seems like its only being done by those hate mongers who want to deny Indians their rightful past, culture and roots (atleast on the forum). These 'historians' will first rewrite the past, so thats its clean enough to embrace

I think you are experienced enough to realise why their efforts will fail, and how. Because an idea with its roots in intolerance and hatred, will not succeed.

 

[Rusty]

For everyone crying about the Taliban destroying the Buddhist statue, I was to point out 2 things.
1. Notice how it's a Buddhist statue and yet there has not been a real Buddhist population in that area even before the Muslims arrived. I wonder what happened to all those Buddhists and why the land was almost all Hindu (forced conversions anyone?)
2. If people bothered to read the story of what actually happened they would know the real reason the Statue were destroyed.
Basically a few western academics came to Afghanistan and offered the Taliban lots of money to restore the statue, Afghanistan at the time was going through 3 years of drought and famine so naturally the Taliban said to give them the money to feed their people instead. The academics declined and the Taliban were so outraged that these people cared more about some rocks then human life that they destroyed it.

Now I am not defending the destruction of the statue, it is our history after all, but anyone with any sense of humanity can understand that human life comes before rocks.

 

[Roybot]

For everyone crying about the Taliban destroying the Buddhist statue, I was to point out 2 things.
1. Notice how it's a Buddhist statue and yet there has not been a real Buddhist population in that area even before the Muslims arrived. I wonder what happened to all those Buddhists and why the land was almost all Hindu (forced conversions anyone?)
2. If people bothered to read the story of what actually happened they would know the real reason the Statue were destroyed.
Basically a few western academics came to Afghanistan and offered the Taliban lots of money to restore the statue, Afghanistan at the time was going through 3 years of drought and famine so naturally the Taliban said to give them the money to feed their people instead. The academics declined and the Taliban were so outraged that these people cared more about some rocks then human life that they destroyed it.

Now I am not defending the destruction of the statue, it is our history after all, but anyone with any sense of humanity can understand that human life comes before rocks.

Do you have any source for that first claim of yours?

And God quite the justification for destroying those century old statues. Even if we believe this story of yours, why couldn't the oh so humane Taliban use their money to buy food for their people(whom they cared about so much) instead of buying RPG's to blow up the statue?