جے ایف تھنڈر طیارے جیسے کئ منصوبے ذیر غور ہیں- ائیر چیف مارشل

[Mrc]

Brain farting usually reserved for india related threads...

Above post is completely un related to facts and especially current thread

 

[The Eagle]

یہ پڑھنے لائق ہے ایگل بھائی


’ہم پاگل ہیں چریا نہیں‘
پاکستان میں جب بھی آئی ایس آئی کا نیا چیف بنتا ہے تو اس کے بارے میں دفاعی مبصر ہمیشہ یہ کہتے ہیں کہ وہ ایک پروفیشنل سولجر ہیں لیکن جیسے ہی یہ حضرات ریٹائرڈ ہوتے ہیں تو ہمیں پتہ چلتا ہے کہ یہ تو اصل میں فلسفی تھے۔ ایسی ایسی بات کرتے ہیں کہ انسان جھوم جھوم جاتا ہے۔


اختر عبدالرحمٰن جو پہلے افغان جہاد کے معمار سمجھے جاتے ہیں اپنے آپ کو فاتحِ سوویت یونین سمجھنے لگے تھے لیکن ریٹائر ہونے سے پہلے ہی اپنے باس جنرل ضیاالحق کے ہمراہ مارے گئے۔ اس لیے ان کے خیالات عالیہ جاننے کا موقع کم کم ملا۔ اس کے بعد حمید گل آ ئے اور جلال آباد فتح کرنے چل پڑے۔ بیس سال گزر چکے ہیں لیکن وہ ابھی تک جلال آباد کے راستے میں ہیں۔ ہر اخبار، ہر ٹی وی چینل پر ان کا سٹاپ ہوتا ہے شاید اسی لیے یہ سفر کبھی ختم نہ ہوگا۔

جنرل اسد درّانی کے کارنامے کسی کو یاد نہیں لیکن میں نے انہیں بین الاقوامی کانفرسوں میں جگتیں لگا کر پاکستان کا امیج بہتر کرنے کی کوشش کرتے ضرور دیکھا ہے۔

ان کے بعد آنے والے جنرل جاوید ناصر کو آپ نے کبھی دیکھا ہے؟ آپ نہیں دیکھ سکتے کیونکہ وہ پردہ کرتے ہیں۔ میں نے ٹی وی پر ان کا ایک انٹرویو دیکھا۔ انکا چہرہ نظر نہیں آرہا تھا۔ میں سمجھا ٹی وی خراب ہے۔ پتہ چلا کہ انہوں نے ٹی وی والوں کو انٹرویو اس شرط پر دیا تھا کہ ان کے چہرے کے آگے سیاہ سکرین لگا دی جائے۔

اس کے بعد جنرل جاوید اشرف قاضی آئے۔ ریٹائر ہونے کے بعد قوم کو تعلیم دینے کی ذمہ داری ان پر آن پڑی۔ پہلے انہوں نے بی بی سی کے ایک انٹرویو میں نواز لیگ کے صدیق الفاروق کو منہ بھر کے گالیاں دیں۔ بعد میں قرآن پاک کے سپارے کم لگے تو ان میں اضافہ کر دیا۔

ضیا الدین بٹ، نواز شریف کے ہاتھوں چار پھول لگوا کر صرف کچھ منٹ ہی فوج کے سربراہ رہے۔ یہ بات سمجھ آتی ہے کہ انہیں ایسا صدمہ ہوا کہ آج تک کچھ نہیں بولے۔

جنرل محمود احمد نے اپنے باس جنرل مشرف کی غیر موجودگی میں حکومت کا تختہ الٹ کر انہیں تخت پر بٹھایا لیکن مشرف کی 'وار آن ٹیرر‘ کے پہلے شکار بھی وہی بنے۔ آج کل سنا ہے تبلیغی اجتماعات کی رونقیں بڑھا رہے ہیں۔

لیکن زمانہ تیز ہو گیا ہے اسی لیے آئی ایس آئی کے موجودہ سربراہ نے ریٹائر ہونے کا انتظار نہیں کیا اور حاضر سروس ہوتے ہوئے بھی دنیا کو اپنے خیالات عالیہ سے نوازنا شروع کر دیا۔ اور خیالات بھی کیسے ۔پاکستان کی تاریخ، جغرافیہ، معیشت، سیاست سب کو ایک جملے میں سمو دیا۔ جرمن رسالے کو انٹرویو دیتے ہوئے فرمایا کہ:
The world thinks we are crazy but we are not completely out of our minds
بیچاری اردو زبان ایک جملے میں اتنی بلاغت سہنے کی صلاحیت نہیں رکھتی۔ اردو اور پنجابی ملا کر اچھا ترجمہ ہو سکتا ہے لیکن وہ قابل اشاعت نہیں ہوگا۔ اردو اور سندھی کے ملاپ سے کہا جا سکتا ہے 'ہم پاگل ہیں چریا نہیں‘۔

اس کو بلند آواز میں پڑھیں تو لگتا ہے کہ نہ صرف یہ غنائیت سے بھرپور ایک نعرہ ہے بلکہ پاکستان کے حالات کی بھرپور نمائندگی کرتا ہے۔

جنرل شجاع نے اپنے انٹرویو میں یہ بھی فرمایا کہ پاکستان میں طالبان جو بھی کہہ رہے ہیں یا کر رہے ہیں اسے اس لیے نہیں روکا جاسکتا کہ آزادئ اظہار کا حق تو انہیں بھی ہے۔

فوج کے تعلقات عامہ کے ادارے نے اس انٹرویو کی ایک نیم دلانہ تردید جاری کی اور کہا کہ کچھ باتیں سیاق و سباق کے بغیر لکھی گئی ہیں۔ لیکن انٹرویو لینے والے نے یہ بھی لکھا کہ جنرل موصوف انتہائی شستہ جرمن بول رہے تھے جس سے میرا یہ شک اور پکا ہوا کہ جنرل شجاع کی وردی کے پیچھے ایک فلاسفر چھپا ہوا ہے۔ آخر جرمن بڑے بڑے فلسفیوں کی زبان رہی ہے۔ علامہ اقبال نے بھی جرمن فلسفہ پڑھنے کے بعد ہی پاکستان کا خواب دیکھا تھا۔


تو ایک ایسے ملک میں جہاں ایک طرف سوات میں بچیوں کو سکول جانے کی اجازت نہیں ہے، جہاں وزیرستان کے باسیوں کو اپنے گھر جانے کی اجازت نہیں ہے، جہاں بلوچستان کے رہنے والوں کو اپنے ہی وسائل کا حق مانگنے کی اجازت نہیں ہے، جہاں ملک کے کروڑوں غریبوں کو عزت سے جینے اور مرنے کی اجازت نہیں ہے وہاں کم ازکم طالبان کے لیے آزادئ اظہار تو ہے۔ یہ ملک 'پاگل ہوں چریا نہیں‘ کی ایک جیتی جاگتی تصویر نہیں تو اور کیا ہے۔

پاکستانی بچوں کو سکول میں اتحاد، تنظیم اور یقینِ محکم کا درس دیا جاتا ہے۔ یہی نعرہ کئی سرکاری دستاویزات اور عمارتوں پر بھی لکھا نظر آتا ہے۔ کیا ہی اچھا ہو کہ ہم اسے خیرباد کہہ کر پاگل ہوں چریا نہیں کو اپنا قومی نعرہ بنا لیں۔ اگر میرے پاسپورٹ پر یہ نعرہ لکھا ہوگا تو اپنا سر فخر سے بلند کر کے دنیا میں کہیں بھی جا سکوں گا۔ اور جہاں جاؤں گا انہیں بھی پاسپورٹ دیکھ کر پتہ چل جائے گا کہ کون آیا ہے۔

Bohat aalaw sarkar.... thora ikhtalaf ha muje jamhoriat k tanazur ma par after all a great one.

But don't you see things are getting better than before at least we realized that "we are crazy but not out of mind" so soon it's going to be "we are in our senses and we know who we are"... what you say Sire?

Baki falsafa na ho to intelligence kese kamyab hoti Un ki

 

[PakShaheen79]

I don't know why PAF is so keen to always refer to op Zarb e Azb, I don't mean any disrespect here but does Zarb E Azb really measure the success and skill of PAF? What aerial threat and competition PAF faces in this op nearly none?

In order to understand the significance of this op for PAF, first you will have to understand the evolution of warfare itself. Now it is no longer a clearly defined battlefields or rules .... now enemy is within us. Finding it, eliminating it has become far most dangerous and difficult now. Indeed there is no aerial threat from enemy in such war, but isn't helping ground forces, picking and tracking enemy movement and communication is among air force's role? Indeed they are and this is where PAF has achieved major success and for the first time PAF and Pakistan Army have developed an operational joint action doctrine which has turned the table in this heinous war ...Please check the history of war and level of operational synergy between two forces and you will understand. Aerial combat is just one aspect of modern air forces their overall operational scope has evolved far from that.

 

[Mrc]

In order to understand the significance of this op for PAF, first you will have to understand the evolution of warfare itself. Now it is no longer a clearly defined battlefields or rules .... now enemy is within us. Finding it, eliminating it has become far most dangerous and difficult now. Indeed there is no aerial threat from enemy in such war, but isn't helping ground forces, picking and tracking enemy movement and communication is among air force's role? Indeed they are and this is where PAF has achieved major success and for the first time PAF and Pakistan Army have developed an operational joint action doctrine which has turned the table in this heinous war ...Please check the history of war and level of operational synergy between two forces and you will understand. Aerial combat is just one aspect of modern air forces their overall operational scope has evolved far from that.

this air and ground forces coordination lagged behind western countries by atleast a decade may be even more. one issue in kargil was that airforce was completely kept out side the loop, and land warriors were at it on their own.

this needs to change, our military should be on cutting edge of strategy and technology. the generals who become old and grumpy and fail to adopt new concepts need to be dealt with.

 

[Basel]

I think some 4.5th Generation Fighter Jet may come from China before J-31. I have a gut feeling it can be JH-7 B @MastanKhan

To my knowledge China already working on replacement of JH-7 family, which PN is aware of.

 

[Thorough Pro]

What I don't like about this format of documentaries is that the interviewer who are mostly illiterate in defence matters don't do their home work properly and ask stupid random questions on the go rather than have planned a progression. Second thing he walks in to the operations control room and the PAF official leaves his station to answer his questions, which is unprofessional at best and gross negligence from duty/abandoning his station/post at worst.

Again why the **** these interviewers have to lace the interviews with their overly exaggerated stupid comments on most inappropriate moments?

READ THIS YOU FUCKING PRODUCERS/INTERVIEWERS NO ONE IS INTERESTED IN LOOKING AT YOUR UGLY FACES, KEEP YOURSELF OUT OF PICTURE, WATCH SOME BBC DOCUMENTARIES TO LEARN THE BASICS.

minute 36 onwards.
I hope you can get you tube.....

How many transporters do we need to setup a production line?
It's like baying a truck for moving two or three times in your lifetime instead of a car which you need for daily commute.

Production of An-178?

 

[I.R.A]

and for the first time PAF and Pakistan Army have developed an operational joint action doctrine which has turned the table in this heinous war

I am sorry this is should not have spoiled this thread but I have to register this.

Don't get me wrong sir but it took long for PAF to understand this, long enough for enemy to hurt us badly and this for a layman like me counts as their (PAF's) inefficiency and should be reflected in their personal files. It was those attacks on bases that served as kick to their rears to wake them up and realise that it is not only PA that has to fight this war.

Once you are forced to be an active party to a conflict then you have to give it everything, your best brains, your best assets but if it takes you decade to realise that you are also supposed to be active part of the conflict then that failure to realise should also be accepted. Meetha hup hup karwa thoo thoo. @MastanKhan & @Khafee PN too has been inactive inefficient party to this war.

Perhaps because our few aircraft made much better impact than US and NATO air forces did in Afghanistan and Iraq?

Okay may be, but are they willing to accept their failures as well?

 

[MastanKhan]

I am sorry this is should not have spoiled this thread but I have to register this.

Don't get me wrong sir but it took long for PAF to understand this, long enough for enemy to hurt us badly and this for a layman like me counts as their (PAF's) inefficiency and should be reflected in their personal files. It was those attacks on bases that served as kick to their rears to wake them up and realise that it is not only PA that has to fight this war.

Once you are forced to be an active party to a conflict then you have to give it everything, your best brains, your best assets but if it takes you decade to realise that you are also supposed to be active part of the conflict then that failure to realise should also be accepted. Meetha hup hup karwa thoo thoo. @MastanKhan & @Khafee PN too has been inactive inefficient party to this war.



Okay may be, but are they willing to accept their failures as well?

Hi,

The year is 1992---I am selling cars in Los angeles area---the finance manager is an ex U S Marine---was a retd seargent---.

I leased a car to an active Army Capt----you what the finance manager the retd seargent did when it came to sign the contract---when I took the Capt to his office----he had seen from the credit application who he was---the finance mngr never got up from his chair---never shook hands---says to him---you are army---I am marine---you know how I feel about you---here are the papers---just sign and get out.

The army Capt never said a word---sat down----signed---I was shocked---after the customer left---I asked him what was that about---He says " these army fckrs never helped us in vietnam "---I then found out that the U S marine really resented the U S army personale for their lack of support in vietnam.

The same resentment should be shown against the pakistan air force and pak navy---why are there no navy or air force personal fighting a ground war in fata. The navy must have some kind of ground force.

I think that the navy and air force troops need to be embeded with the army troops

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

A SAM program is more in need then a new fighter jet program

 

[I.R.A]

Hi,

The year is 1992---I am selling cars in Los angeles area---the finance manager is an ex U S Marine---was a retd seargent---.

I leased a car to an active Army Capt----you what the finance manager the retd seargent did when it came to sign the contract---when I took the Capt to his office----he had seen from the credit application who he was---the finance mngr never got up from his chair---never shook hands---says to him---you are army---I am marine---you know how I feel about you---here are the papers---just sign and get out.

The army Capt never said a word---sat down----signed---I was shocked---after the customer left---I asked him what was that about---He says " these army fckrs never helped us in vietnam "---I then found out that the U S marine really resented the U S army personale for their lack of support in vietnam.

The same resentment should be shown against the pakistan air force and pak navy---why are there no navy or air force personal fighting a ground war in fata. The navy must have some kind of ground force.

I think that the navy and air force troops need to be embeded with the army troops

Sir PN people may be easy to brainwash (because of beliefs they hold and school they follow) may be that's why they are not there in action, the ship incident is evidence of that. I have a close blood relation that served in Swat and FATA ........... when I would ask him why these other two are missing in action, he would reply these sleeping idiots would never realise that the enemy PA is fighting with its blood is threat to all of us, and they think it's job of PA only to fight this evil jahil cult, and another interesting thing he said was when one is there on the ground then he realises what barbarity and thuggish cult wrapped as Jihad one is fighting against, but someone who has not served there he thinks the enemy is fighting for a holy cause and are our naraz bai.

 

[untitled]

I then found out that the U S marine really resented the U S army personale for their lack of support in vietnam.

Actually the resentment of the Marines by the American Army is older than the Vietnam war. After WWII President Eisenhower himself an army man had tried to make the Marines a redundant force.

 

[ebrahym]

View attachment 292845
روزنامہ جنگ کراچی بدھ ۱۰ فروری صفحہ نمبر ۲۰
http://e.jang.com.pk/02-10-2016/karachi/page20.asp

most probably variants of jf 17 like twin engine variant stealth variant we wish but what comes in our hand with this economy will be admired

 

[PakShaheen79]

I am sorry this is should not have spoiled this thread but I have to register this.

Don't get me wrong sir but it took long for PAF to understand this, long enough for enemy to hurt us badly and this for a layman like me counts as their (PAF's) inefficiency and should be reflected in their personal files. It was those attacks on bases that served as kick to their rears to wake them up and realise that it is not only PA that has to fight this war.

Once you are forced to be an active party to a conflict then you have to give it everything, your best brains, your best assets but if it takes you decade to realise that you are also supposed to be active part of the conflict then that failure to realise should also be accepted. Meetha hup hup karwa thoo thoo. @MastanKhan & @Khafee PN too has been inactive inefficient party to this war.



Okay may be, but are they willing to accept their failures as well?

Isn't it obvious from history and two (PA and PAF) always have had their operational problems and this is exactly what i wrote in my reply and this is really encouraging to see that they finally have realized their lagging behind and are now participating in war against nation.

Coming back to the topic, I don't find this news strange or exaggerated at all. Because if our journalists are really that dump how they can invent something on the behalf of ACM? Then is it natrual progression of what JF-17 Thunder started? A very young but promising aviation industry. PAF is aware of what is the value of building advanced weapons, sensors, sub systems and even whole fighters in house not only for defense but also for export so I think it is natural to believe that PAC would evolve further with future need. Now at what pace this will happen that is debatable and depend on lots of factors like economy, political will and strategic planning on PAF's end which for now is looking in right direction.

 

[The Eagle]

Isn't it obvious from history and two (PA and PAF) always have had their operational problems and this is exactly what i wrote in my reply and this is really encouraging to see that they finally have realized their lagging behind and are now participating in war against nation.

care to explain red bold part, please...

 

[PakShaheen79]

care to explain red bold part, please...

I meant .... participating in war which has been waged against nation.