Future of SD-10 in PAF?

[MastanKhan]

I'm sure you can team up with @MastanKhan and give those media directorate people a run for their money.

Hi,

With what we have seen so far---I am positive that we can do a much much better job----actually we could have done a much better job---.

The paf are NOT QUALIFIED to make the right kind of deal---they may think that they are---but looking at the results---it is evident that pak air force is clueless in the art of deal making and taking utility of an opportune moment.

 

[fatman17]

Well Sir, we all agree that for present and next 5-8 year time frame the SD-10 and AMRAAMs may do the task, but for future what the the issues that you are seeing and what recommendation do you have.

Getting western stuff presently is a tough task and in future also would be very tough / impossible especially if we have no plans to acquire a western platform.

So where to go and what to do. Keep the Chinese engaged for their future projects and look for some western stuff / try new projects with Turks ?

PL-15 / 21 is said to be a future system by Chinese:

http://www.popsci.com/chinese-air-to-air-missile-hits-targets-spooks-usaf-general
http://chinese-military-aviation.blogspot.com/p/missiles-i.html

Russian options are currently don't seem possible and in future also chances are very slim till we induct one of their platforms which the Indians won't let.

we need to collaborate with the Chinese by utilizing our western experience with what's available with the Chinese, remember Chinese avionics is improving by leaps and bounds. Ukraine , turkey and south African tech can be made a base for upgrading Chinese missiles.

 

[MastanKhan]

Hi,

The sparrows have already eaten the seeds off the ground that was tilled---. It is too late to do something now----.

You pakistani kids and adults are going to learn that neither you are very smart---nor very intelligent---or too clever when it came to making defense deals---.

The only RAAG that you could sing was " no funds " " corruption "----it does not meet the needs----the price is too high----.

You guys are the true enemies of pakistan---.

For the last 10 years---if you guys had one voice and stood together and gotten access to media in pakistan---you could have forced the paf to change the direction of its follies---.

You kids cherish the drama created by the Pak F16 pilots taking out the EFT or the Rafale in excercizes---but have no clue that what could kill them---they don't have any antidote for that.

 

[Qabza Group]

SD-10 has even got some superiority over Adder. The A-Pole of SD-10 is met earlier, which makes its platform a bit safer during the Crank. If Firing Doctorine not set on Rmax, the DLZ shooting capability of SD-10 is also a bit superior to AA-12. In Block-3, the SD-10 proves clearly to be a supirior choice than Adder.

 

[Dazzler]

SD-10 has even got some superiority over Adder. The A-Pole of SD-10 is met earlier, which makes its platform a bit safer during the Crank. If Firing Doctorine not set on Rmax, the DLZ shooting capability of SD-10 is also a bit superior to AA-12. In Block-3, the SD-10 proves clearly to be a supirior choice than Adder.

Please elaborate your post and terms used:

* A-Pole
* Rmax
DLZ

Thanks

 

[_NOBODY_]

As someone pointed out, EFT has its own unique set of issues.

But then again aren't these countries desperate for orders because the production line of Typhoon will stop if they didn't receive more orders. Soft loans and aid from China and fellow Arab countries can lets us have Typhoon.
@MastanKhan @Quwa

 

[Bilal Khan 777]

But then again aren't these countries desperate for orders because the production line of Typhoon will stop if they didn't receive more orders.
@MastanKhan @Quwa

They are desperate for orders, but over the years companies like BAE Systems are calcified over with bureaucracy. They cannot take export customers seriously, and they all seem to have job security and government subsidized programs. The problem that I see is large defense companies being run by accountants, and that is why you don't see EFT flying in countries like Pakistan.

Anything that has a kickback is already tainted. Such as the Mp-5 which was ToT'd on what is one of many unfair traitorous deals done by people in PA. Such as the Mirage avionics prior to ROSE, such as a nice sulphur or something analyzer that sits rusting at the building in H-11 sector and has not a single useful attribute that the organization there wanted or ever needed; but was approved because someone's chahazad bhai who happened to be a retired colonel approved the deal because his relative had taken the agency for that rather useless equipment.

Or maybe the purchase of certain glowy bulbs for a place where yellow stuff gets slammed around at 10000rpm, which originally cost $.50-$1.50 a pop and were available from Amrika, strangely these were purchased from Cheen at $180 each ( I can only imagine the kickback). But then who asks these people what they do with our cash since we are kept busy hating one 10%, 60% or 20% who keeps coming and going without ever returning anything.
And this is stuff I can mention before someone decides to come out of some obscure media directorate and starts posting legal threats here.

We are corrupt to the core, each and EVERY one of us.

I dither though.

What do you mean the MP-5 doesn't work? I thought it was always the faulty mags...

SD-10 has even got some superiority over Adder. The A-Pole of SD-10 is met earlier, which makes its platform a bit safer during the Crank. If Firing Doctorine not set on Rmax, the DLZ shooting capability of SD-10 is also a bit superior to AA-12. In Block-3, the SD-10 proves clearly to be a supirior choice than Adder.

New account made by serving officer to defend the SD-10, intriguing.

 

[The Eagle]

There is no point in giving anyone a run for their money. The idea is to use facts and facts alone. Verifiable facts. However, this is a misnomer as these facts are essentially my own experiences and hence CANNOT be facts at all. Which is why I avoid needless and baseless criticism and focus on events that can be deemed plausible by corroboration.

The people of the military are just that; people. granted they are trained and many truly are brave and bold; but there are also those who are sell outs or cowards. People who ran from enemy aircraft in 65 while claiming kills, people who were very eager to shoot hapless Bengalis but pee'ed under Indian attack, people who made millions off siphoning off airforce resources during Zia's era, people who made millions in kickbacks from Army or Military deals, and people who during Kargil and 2001 went to PNS Shifa and begged doctors to declare them unfit so they wont face the Indian Navy.

They are just people, and people that represent a section of Pakistanis as who we are.

Either way, I dither.

Sir, why not to make an attempt to turn the steering wheel a bit in right direction through any kind of source/bridge that may overcome or minimize further failures, if any.

 

[Mangus Ortus Novem]

Anything that has a kickback is already tainted. Such as the Mp-5 which was ToT'd on what is one of many unfair traitorous deals done by people in PA. Such as the Mirage avionics prior to ROSE, such as a nice sulphur or something analyzer that sits rusting at the building in H-11 sector and has not a single useful attribute that the organization there wanted or ever needed; but was approved because someone's chahazad bhai who happened to be a retired colonel approved the deal because his relative had taken the agency for that rather useless equipment.

Or maybe the purchase of certain glowy bulbs for a place where yellow stuff gets slammed around at 10000rpm, which originally cost $.50-$1.50 a pop and were available from Amrika, strangely these were purchased from Cheen at $180 each ( I can only imagine the kickback). But then who asks these people what they do with our cash since we are kept busy hating one 10%, 60% or 20% who keeps coming and going without ever returning anything.
And this is stuff I can mention before someone decides to come out of some obscure media directorate and starts posting legal threats here.

We are corrupt to the core, each and EVERY one of us.

I dither though.

People get the leaders they deserve...it is a reflection of their own being. Deep pschy of the masses is manifested in their leaders.


You dither, my dear brother, yet this rampant corruption bothers you to your very core.


Is there no way that this pervasive corruption in your great country can be managed if not totally irradicated?

I know...it sounds so cynical to say manage corruption...but corruption is the curse of human condition. It is global...what differs is the level/spread in a given society.

Wish you and your great country a better future that you all surely deserve!

I do percieve a spirit of time changing in your country...PDF is a micro cosmos of Pak society... status quo is weakening slowly, but surely.

a few years back none challenged anything...and were all blindly supporting their forces.

now Pak posters are more unforgiving and want the best for their taxes...if they pay at least!

.

 

[Qabza Group]

Please elaborate your post and terms used:

* A-Pole
* Rmax
DLZ

Thanks

A-Pole: The range between Fighter and the target when The radar of missile goes active.
After launching the Active BVR, The missile gets its initial guidance from the platform till a specific time and then its Own radar goes active. So to provide guidance to the missile, the platform has to travel further into the threat facing it (just like semi-active). This makes him more vulnerable. Once the radar of ARH missile goes active, the aircraft can breakoff away from the target, now the missile homes on to its own guidance. That DISTANCE (between the Launching aircraft and the target aircraft) at which this missile flows on its own guidance is A-Pole.
The SD-10 platform gets a much earlier A-Pole than the AA-12 platform, hence the "Fire and Forget" property is more in it, making its Platform Safer.

Rmax: It is the Maximum claimed range of the missile at a specific height. It depends upon various factors like Speed of the launching aircraft, Speed of the target aircraft, Aspect Angle between both the aircrafts and most importantly the heights of both aircrafts. As the missile is fired at the Maximum range, the kill probablility is just close to 5-10%. the Rmax of Adder is slightly more than SD-10.

DLZ: (Desired Launch Zone) It is a place ahead of Rmax, in which the missile gets better cues and the kill probability is increased. Unlike Rmax (in which if the target aircraft turns even 5 degrees the in-flight missile may trash) , in DLZ the missile is fired with accuracy of degrees, which are marked in Ds, e.g. if a missile is fired in D10, it means even if the target turns away 10 degrees from that point, missile will hit him, same goes for D20,D30...D90, D120 and then D180 which is called E-Pole (No Escape zone) meaning thereby even if the target aircraft turns 180 degrees after launch of a missile, it will be invariably shot down.
In case of SD-10 and AA-12, This DLZ criteria is met much earlier in SD-10 thus giving it a clear edge over the adversary platform.

 

[cranwerkhan]

A-Pole: The range between Fighter and the target when The radar of missile goes active.
After launching the Active BVR, The missile gets its initial guidance from the platform till a specific time and then its Own radar goes active. So to provide guidance to the missile, the platform has to travel further into the threat facing it (just like semi-active). This makes him more vulnerable. Once the radar of ARH missile goes active, the aircraft can breakoff away from the target, now the missile homes on to its own guidance. That DISTANCE (between the Launching aircraft and the target aircraft) at which this missile flows on its own guidance is A-Pole.
The SD-10 platform gets a much earlier A-Pole than the AA-12 platform, hence the "Fire and Forget" property is more in it, making its Platform Safer.

Rmax: It is the Maximum claimed range of the missile at a specific height. It depends upon various factors like Speed of the launching aircraft, Speed of the target aircraft, Aspect Angle between both the aircrafts and most importantly the heights of both aircrafts. As the missile is fired at the Maximum range, the kill probablility is just close to 5-10%. the Rmax of Adder is slightly more than SD-10.

DLZ: (Desired Launch Zone) It is a place ahead of Rmax, in which the missile gets better cues and the kill probability is increased. Unlike Rmax (in which if the target aircraft turns even 5 degrees the in-flight missile may trash) , in DLZ the missile is fired with accuracy of degrees, which are marked in Ds, e.g. if a missile is fired in D10, it means even if the target turns away 10 degrees from that point, missile will hit him, same goes for D20,D30...D90, D120 and then D180 which is called E-Pole (No Escape zone) meaning thereby even if the target aircraft turns 180 degrees after launch of a missile, it will be invariably shot down.
In case of SD-10 and AA-12, This DLZ criteria is met much earlier in SD-10 thus giving it a clear edge over the adversary platform.

thanks sir concept cleared now very informative !

 

[Dazzler]

A-Pole: The range between Fighter and the target when The radar of missile goes active.
After launching the Active BVR, The missile gets its initial guidance from the platform till a specific time and then its Own radar goes active. So to provide guidance to the missile, the platform has to travel further into the threat facing it (just like semi-active). This makes him more vulnerable. Once the radar of ARH missile goes active, the aircraft can breakoff away from the target, now the missile homes on to its own guidance. That DISTANCE (between the Launching aircraft and the target aircraft) at which this missile flows on its own guidance is A-Pole.
The SD-10 platform gets a much earlier A-Pole than the AA-12 platform, hence the "Fire and Forget" property is more in it, making its Platform Safer.

Rmax: It is the Maximum claimed range of the missile at a specific height. It depends upon various factors like Speed of the launching aircraft, Speed of the target aircraft, Aspect Angle between both the aircrafts and most importantly the heights of both aircrafts. As the missile is fired at the Maximum range, the kill probablility is just close to 5-10%. the Rmax of Adder is slightly more than SD-10.

DLZ: (Desired Launch Zone) It is a place ahead of Rmax, in which the missile gets better cues and the kill probability is increased. Unlike Rmax (in which if the target aircraft turns even 5 degrees the in-flight missile may trash) , in DLZ the missile is fired with accuracy of degrees, which are marked in Ds, e.g. if a missile is fired in D10, it means even if the target turns away 10 degrees from that point, missile will hit him, same goes for D20,D30...D90, D120 and then D180 which is called E-Pole (No Escape zone) meaning thereby even if the target aircraft turns 180 degrees after launch of a missile, it will be invariably shot down.
In case of SD-10 and AA-12, This DLZ criteria is met much earlier in SD-10 thus giving it a clear edge over the adversary platform.

very informative, thanks

I have a question, what is the maximum engagement range of sd-10A version? i have at least two figures, 80km and 90 km. But the actual figure ia anybodys guess to date.

thanks.

 

[Qabza Group]

very informative, thanks

I have a question, what is the maximum engagement range of sd-10A version? i have at least two figures, 80km and 90 km. But the actual figure ia anybodys guess to date.

thanks.

You are welcome.
As far as the actual max range of a missile is concerned it is not FIXED FOR ANY MISSILE. One day you can even see an IR guided missile hitting at 25kms while even an Active BVR Missing at 25kms even if the target doesn't take evassive maneuver. Even IF THE GUIDANCE IS OF SAME TYPE FOR TWO MISSILES, Max Range depends upon Multiple of factors:-

a) Aerodynamics

This is ofcourse the main factor. If the missile is of thin Diameter and long in design with agile actuators (its control fins) then it has more ranges. How?? it will be understood below.

b) Motor burnout Time

If the missile's motor burnout time is more due to the nature of Propulsion / Fuel in it, it can travel more distance. Typical missiles possess 10-20 seconds of motor burnout time. Please note that in this phase (when the motor is burning) the missile is very less agile due to The forward force.

c) Height of the launching Platform

In Aerial battle the height of launching platform is one of the main factors for the max range of missile. In case of BVRs, The Higher the launching platform is the more will be range of BVR. But again the agility will be compromised due to Low air density, it is here that the Aerodynamic design comes into account.

The other factors are:-
- Rate of closure of the two Aircrafts
- Aspect Angle between them

An SU-30 carring AA-12 at 15000 feet will have less max range than The same at 30000.

Max SD-10 range can b calculated by its Motorburnout time vs Speed graph at a given height.

An interesting thing:-
If you consider the max ceiling a JF-17 can climb and launch SD-10 and its Adversery also coming towards him HEAD-ON. Both Aircrafts at Mach-2, I won't wonder if the SD-10 Hits the Adversary at 120kms

 

[Xerxes1]

What you talking about?

I am just joking sir

 

[SQ8]

What do you mean the MP-5 doesn't work? I thought it was always the faulty mags....

Not working is not the issue, that amount of money for ToT for what was just a CQC requirement of max 300 units being turned into a mass procurement programme for a "field weapon" to be used on the front lines. Nobody wanted the gun, the bullet is lying on the ground after 800ft(not meters) and the evaluation team put a big "NOT RECOMMENED FOR FIELD" on the file. But the general had already cashed his cheque and we spent millions on something that was not needed.

Just another day, another $million and more no one knows what happened to and why.. and unlike the much(and correctly) maligned politicians; we wont hear much of these sacred cows and the only accountability so far is the Naval chief who did not even do 1/10th of the crap these guys pull off. But they needed to save face before a bigger torch was put on them so Mansour ul haq got the whole boot while those with 7 Land Cruisers given to them as "gifts" for military contracts have kids living in Dubai and opening up coffee shops just for fun because Daddy has enough money to keep them and their grandkids there for eons.

Lets not dither.