Future of SD-10 in PAF?

[Bilal Khan 777]

I guess we should keep working with Denel for air to air missiles for coming blocks of Jf17
How about replacing SD10 with Marlin
View attachment 333686
And PL5 by A Darter?
View attachment 333687

Yes but Denel has two issues. Marlin is far from ready, and Darter is with a wrong marketing team which will likely lead to the market being secured by the next contender.

1. You are claiming SD-10 an export variant of the PL-12 as inferior, inferior to whom ?? and on what terms ?

2. JF-17 radar is Chinese KLJ-7 v2, so if PAF choose some other BVRAAM, who is going to mate it, and does the BVRAAM is a plug and play device to be just put it on the plane.

3. SU-35, to access the weapon for JF-17 development, how ?? Does Chinese think that they could not supply their weapon package, and wants Russian to add their weaponary so easily. Doesn't Chinese thinking of some profits gain from the JF-17 weapon package.

@Beast so which Seaker Chinese are using in their PL-12 BVR

and some one suggesting PL-15 ?? Is it ready for the export ? and the cost signify the usage in general or rather for special targets.

Kindly don't put words in my mouth. SD10 effectively meets the current requirement of PAF. However, JF17 is for future role, and the future requirement vis-a-vis the evolving threat requires other weapons to be considered.

We have R-77 in our stock. So what do you think? We even modify existing Su-30MKK to fire our own PL-12 missile. If R-77 is such magical and wonderful missile. We would have long gone for more or keep buying R-77. But fact is, many layman has hyped up by its wonderful marketing skill and didn't know the real story.

China never go for the second restock of R-77. Once it fully expended, we will used only PL-12 missile or PL-15 if it enter service.

View attachment 333778

Most likely the Russian radar is replaced with domestic radar.

Most of Chinese hardware is license produced or illegal copied Russian or Israeli hardware. There are hardly innovations out of China. You can harp your horn all you like, but being the largest customer of chinese defense exports, we know what works and what is junk from China.

@Bilal Khan 777

In terms of the future a key consideration will be the guidance suite. As difficult as it is to develop the propulsion, I don't think there is a world's of difference between the rockets powering the SD-10 series versus the R-series or other AAMs (exception being AIM-120D and Meteor). But the guidance element is an option question. One's consideration isn't only confined to the current typing, e.g. active radar-homing, but we also need to keep other ideas, such as dual-seekers (e.g. ARH and IIR) and AESA-based seekers. The vendor who is (1) developing this stuff, (2) is willing to export it, (3) and is willing to sell to Pakistan would be the long-term winner, IMO.

Well thought out ideas, and something everyone interested in the topic should think about.

 

[Beast]

Most of Chinese hardware is license produced or illegal copied Russian or Israeli hardware. There are hardly innovations out of China. You can harp your horn all you like, but being the largest customer of chinese defense exports, we know what works and what is junk from China.

LOL, as if you know. Actually you know nothing. Most your knowledge of Chinese military is based on bogus western source which basically recycle from crap western article which is nothing but smearing.

Or you want to claim DF-21D is also copy from Russia? We do not need this kind of crap Pakistanis fanboy like you who only know how to worship western stuff blindly.

Or you want to claim China UCAV is also copy from Russian who even needs to buy from Israel? Israel dont even have a proper working UCAV. Their surveilance drone is good but cant carry out combat and surveilance mission at once. The best UCAV is from USA and China.

Learn more before you sprout nonsense.

 

[Bilal Khan 777]

LOL, as if you know. Actually you know nothing. Most your knowledge of Chinese military is based on bogus western source which basically recycle from crap western article which is nothing but smearing.

Or you want to claim DF-21D is also copy from Russia? We do not need this kind of crap Pakistanis fanboy like you who only know how to worship western stuff blindly.

Excuse me sir. This is MY thread, so watch your bull shit. It is your opinion what I know or don't. Most of my knowledge is based on being the end user of Chinese military equipment. I do not worship western equipment blindly, and kindly take you juvenile attacks elsewhere.

 

[SQ8]

The Adder series is a great system on paper, but so far its reliability and availability is an issue along with a very suspect shelf life. T

he SD-10 is at the end the seeker of the Adder mated with a modified Sparrow body.

The performance of the SD-10 was evaluated against the Aim-120C and found to match it.

The issue is the impeding issue of needed a new generation Helmet for the JF-17 which is where the actual limitations occur. The Russians have nothing to offer and what is available has Elbit or IAI stamped on its components.

The PL-5 is pretty adequate for most slash and dash passes but the trump card what was to be the A-darter never panned out. That is the where the real problem is.

The JF-17 is unlikely to get anything western for the PAF at least since the French are too desperate to land more deals on our "playa" neighbor throwing their money around.

Excuse me sir. This is MY thread, so watch your bull shit. It is your opinion what I know or don't. Most of my knowledge is based on being the end user of Chinese military equipment. I do not worship western equipment blindly, and kindly take you juvenile attacks elsewhere.

Cue the nationalist and over zealous Chinese teenager who keeps calling out everyone as having no knowledge.

 

[MastanKhan]

Pakistan Air Force opted for a compromise solution, with the inability to get European weapons, for SD-10 air to air missile. The weapon is now in service, with many hundred on order. However, what is the future of this weapon? Considering the evolving threat of BVRAACM in the theatre, it is likely that PAF will look for a life beyond SD-10.

Enters Russian Federation, which warmup gestures to Pakistan, as India lap dances in American corn fields. Russia has a robust arsenal of developed and developing air to air weapons. It is likely that Pakistan will look towards Russia to arm the next generation of JF17 aircraft, and making the aircraft relevant to Russian block for purchase (having a Russian power plant does help).

What we may expect is a solid interest of PAF in RVV series weapons, such as the Archer and Adder. This may make the sub-continent air battle very interesting, and perhaps the only airfare that will operate US and Russian weaponry side by side.

It is quite possible that Pakistan may opt for Su-35 aircraft, just to access the weapons for JF17 deployment.
However, there will be counter actions to try to buy Rafale or EFT, to access european weapons. May the tallest glass on the table win.

BR

Hello Sir,

You are touching on a subject that most people cannot comprehend. When bad decisions are made---terrible things happen immediately and in the long run---.

Bad decisions not only have an immediate effect---but they have a MULTIPLIER effects that lingers on for years to come---and raises its ugly head where you least expect it to.

And that is when I come back to the year 2002---2005. A vendor knowing that a sale is must to save the life of its fighter aircraft industry---a buyer totally oblivious to the fact---or does not care.

The consequences of not buying the Rafale are going to haunt the paf for many a coming decades---.

I think that the Paf needs to find a way to get hooked up with the EFT and some goodies for the JF17----.

I would rather have that package with 24---30 EFT's than 40 SU35's---.

We have R-77 in our stock. So what do you think? We even modify existing Su-30MKK to fire our own PL-12 missile. If R-77 is such magical and wonderful missile. We would have long gone for more or keep buying R-77. But fact is, many layman has hyped up by its wonderful marketing skill and didn't know the real story.

China never go for the second restock of R-77. Once it fully expended, we will used only PL-12 missile or PL-15 if it enter service.

View attachment 333778

Most likely the Russian radar is replaced with domestic radar.

Hi,

I do not understand why you are upset at the word copy----. Copying is a form of art that few have---.

Copying something means that you have the ability to get into the head of the person who designed that item---if your copy meets the abilities of the one copied from---then technically you are ahead of the originator----but if you end up making a better system out of the copy---then you capabilities are way way ahead of those of the original manufacturer.

Which means that you just needed to be shown a direction---and your inner intellect superior brain power took it over and took things to the next level up.

So---next time when someone says " it is a copy "---you better smile and say---" yes it is ---and we have more coming from where it came from".

 

[Thorough Pro]

What is stopping Pakistan now to outflank india and sign a deal for 40 Rafaels tomorrow?

 

[Curious_Guy]

Money and may be french themselve

What is stopping Pakistan now to outflank india and sign a deal for 40 Rafaels tomorrow?

 

[MastanKhan]

What is stopping Pakistan now to outflank india and sign a deal for 40 Rafaels tomorrow?

Hi,

India has already signed a massive deal for the Locomotives with France---correct me if I am wrong---. If india totally rejects the Rafale---then maybe---.

 

[wiseone2]

Can we arm our JF-17 with AIM-120 AMRAAM which is far superior to Russian and Chinese BVRs.

the yanks might not allow

Hello Sir,

You are touching on a subject that most people cannot comprehend. When bad decisions are made---terrible things happen immediately and in the long run---.

Bad decisions not only have an immediate effect---but they have a MULTIPLIER effects that lingers on for years to come---and raises its ugly head where you least expect it to.

And that is when I come back to the year 2002---2005. A vendor knowing that a sale is must to save the life of its fighter aircraft industry---a buyer totally oblivious to the fact---or does not care.

The consequences of not buying the Rafale are going to haunt the paf for many a coming decades---.

I think that the Paf needs to find a way to get hooked up with the EFT and some goodies for the JF17----.

I would rather have that package with 24---30 EFT's than 40 SU35's---.



Hi,

I do not understand why you are upset at the word copy----. Copying is a form of art that few have---.

Copying something means that you have the ability to get into the head of the person who designed that item---if your copy meets the abilities of the one copied from---then technically you are ahead of the originator----but if you end up making a better system out of the copy---then you capabilities are way way ahead of those of the original manufacturer.

Which means that you just needed to be shown a direction---and your inner intellect superior brain power took it over and took things to the next level up.

So---next time when someone says " it is a copy "---you better smile and say---" yes it is ---and we have more coming from where it came from".

the EFT is a political nightmare with 4 countries responsible

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

Hello Sir,

You are touching on a subject that most people cannot comprehend. When bad decisions are made---terrible things happen immediately and in the long run---.

Bad decisions not only have an immediate effect---but they have a MULTIPLIER effects that lingers on for years to come---and raises its ugly head where you least expect it to.

And that is when I come back to the year 2002---2005. A vendor knowing that a sale is must to save the life of its fighter aircraft industry---a buyer totally oblivious to the fact---or does not care.

The consequences of not buying the Rafale are going to haunt the paf for many a coming decades---.

I think that the Paf needs to find a way to get hooked up with the EFT and some goodies for the JF17----.

I would rather have that package with 24---30 EFT's than 40 SU35's---.



Hi,

I do not understand why you are upset at the word copy----. Copying is a form of art that few have---.

Copying something means that you have the ability to get into the head of the person who designed that item---if your copy meets the abilities of the one copied from---then technically you are ahead of the originator----but if you end up making a better system out of the copy---then you capabilities are way way ahead of those of the original manufacturer.

Which means that you just needed to be shown a direction---and your inner intellect superior brain power took it over and took things to the next level up.

So---next time when someone says " it is a copy "---you better smile and say---" yes it is ---and we have more coming from where it came from".

The SD-10 was less of a bad decision than it was a necessity of the time. In the early 2000s there were hardly any decent active radar-homing (ARM) AAM solutions available to the PAF. For example, there was the R-Darter, which - while an ARM - was becoming a dated solution, and Denel's next-gen BVRAAM programs (e.g. T-Darter) were just not entering development.

In fact, I was speaking to a South African engineer familiar with Denel's dealings with Pakistan a few weeks ago; the company had hoped to engage in a number of projects, but in the mid-2000s, the BRICS mantra and India's lure for lucrative contracts encouraged the company's leadership close the door on Pakistan (and in the process abandon a number of promising programs).

For one reason (e.g. corruption allegations) or another ("IP theft in India" - his words, not mine), Denel was not able to effectively enter the Indian market. "It was a regretful decision" (again, his words, not mine).

The PAF was interested in the MICA-RF, but that tunnel collapsed.

Besides that, there wasn't much of anything else, besides perhaps some even older semi-active radar-homing (SARH) solutions such as the Aspide. Unfortunately, and to @Bilal Khan 777's point, the PAF has yet to secure a true next-gen AAM solution - i.e. a platform that will stay relevant for not a few years, but at least 10-15 years. In that regard, it is a matter of studying who is in practical possession of the best concepts.

 

[Super Falcon]

SD 10 will evolve too

 

[Viper0011.]

Pakistan Air Force opted for a compromise solution, with the inability to get European weapons, for SD-10 air to air missile. The weapon is now in service, with many hundred on order. However, what is the future of this weapon? Considering the evolving threat of BVRAACM in the theatre, it is likely that PAF will look for a life beyond SD-10.

- SD-10 and later, PL-15 will remain in the PAF and for the JFT's (along with potential Russian or EU options).

- Pakistan wants full independence in terms of essential defense capability. A big part of that is an internally made BVR weapon, similar to the capability that the JFT provides for the PAF. The only and a better option is the Chinese one (whether SD-10 TOT or licensed manufacturing of PL-15). Russians or Europeans won't give you the proprietary codes and integration capability beyond need.

- Plus, SD-10 and PL-15 have said to have both, the Russian influence and the Western influence in terms of having advanced Passive and Active seekers. So its a better option then the Russian one's available today, which have proven pretty useless in pretty much all air battles in the Middle East in recent times.

- Some analysis I've read from Janes and others (very credible) also explain that the SD-10 program has Israeli technology involved too (Python, etc). The Israelis cancelled all advanced capability projects with the Chinese per the US pressure, when the Israelis were selling the Chinese their Phalcon AWACS platform. Till then, the tech transfer and know how provided on BVR missile platform had played a key role into SD-10's development. Which is why it is rated directly with AMRAAM C5 and not with the Russian Archer or other BVRAAM's.

 

[MastanKhan]

The SD-10 was less of a bad decision than it was a necessity of the time. In the early 2000s there were hardly any decent active radar-homing (ARM) AAM solutions available to the PAF. For example, there was the R-Darter, which - while an ARM - was becoming a dated solution, and Denel's next-gen BVRAAM programs (e.g. T-Darter) were just not entering development.

In fact, I was speaking to a South African engineer familiar with Denel's dealings with Pakistan a few weeks ago; the company had hoped to engage in a number of projects, but in the mid-2000s, the BRICS mantra and India's lure for lucrative contracts encouraged the company's leadership close the door on Pakistan (and in the process abandon a number of promising programs).

For one reason (e.g. corruption allegations) or another ("IP theft in India" - his words, not mine), Denel was not able to effectively enter the Indian market. "It was a regretful decision" (again, his words, not mine).

The PAF was interested in the MICA-RF, but that tunnel collapsed.

Besides that, there wasn't much of anything else, besides perhaps some even older semi-active radar-homing (SARH) solutions such as the Aspide. Unfortunately, and to @Bilal Khan 777's point, the PAF has yet to secure a true next-gen AAM solution - i.e. a platform that will stay relevant for not a few years, but at least 10-15 years. In that regard, it is a matter of studying who is in practical possession of the best concepts.

Hi,

Thank you for your post---and it again comes back to the ramifications of simple deals gone bad---.

No deal is a single deal in itself---. So what is obvious and visible to everyone now ( what was visible to very few of us then ) is that there were blunders made one after the other.

Obviously there was no concept of FEATURES & BENEFITS--- or what I would do for them---to what they will do to us in return kind of thinking---.

Paf needed someone with god's view of the French deal or for every deal that they have failed to make in a timely manner---.

There are basically 2 tier 1 vendors in the world for air force aircraft / weapons / EW suite that can supply you from one end to the other---covering everything---the U S---& the French---& the Paf managed to get both of them pi-ssed off or ticked off at pakistan.

Now---someone Plz tell me what kind of game plan and strategy is this---.

You talk about the mid 2000's----when things started to change----Bilal---the world knew that change was coming----the only fool that did not believe in that was the Paf and its Air Chief---and the Pakistanis---.

At that time pakistanis were walking arrogant as gods---" money talks---the GORAY will sell their mother's to us for money "---that was the mindset of the pakistanis---not illiterate pakistanis---but the Pakistani military air force General Staff---".

Well---they are not selling their mothers for anything---the pakistani air force wants to---but no one wants to buy their mothers---.

It is said in the U S---you want to check the pulse of the U S--check the car sales in the U So----that is the first thing that tells you what is coming----. The sale of vehicles to the citizens of a certain nation in the late 90's and early 2000's tells a very interesting story

The indian influence by mid 2005 was no surprise---.

 

[Jaga Badmash]

the yanks might not allow

Since India is going to have complete F-16 / F-18 plus many other make in India aseembly lines we might ask Modi to give us access

 

[Bilal Khan 777]

- SD-10 and later, PL-15 will remain in the PAF and for the JFT's (along with potential Russian or EU options).

- Pakistan wants full independence in terms of essential defense capability. A big part of that is an internally made BVR weapon, similar to the capability that the JFT provides for the PAF. The only and a better option is the Chinese one (whether SD-10 TOT or licensed manufacturing of PL-15). Russians or Europeans won't give you the proprietary codes and integration capability beyond need.

- Plus, SD-10 and PL-15 have said to have both, the Russian influence and the Western influence in terms of having advanced Passive and Active seekers. So its a better option then the Russian one's available today, which have proven pretty useless in pretty much all air battles in the Middle East in recent times.

- Some analysis I've read from Janes and others (very credible) also explain that the SD-10 program has Israeli technology involved too (Python, etc). The Israelis cancelled all advanced capability projects with the Chinese per the US pressure, when the Israelis were selling the Chinese their Phalcon AWACS platform. Till then, the tech transfer and know how provided on BVR missile platform had played a key role into SD-10's development. Which is why it is rated directly with AMRAAM C5 and not with the Russian Archer or other BVRAAM's.

SD-10 is a Ukrainian program derivative with Russian seeker built in China on License, with a Chinese AAM fuse.

The SD-10 was less of a bad decision than it was a necessity of the time. In the early 2000s there were hardly any decent active radar-homing (ARM) AAM solutions available to the PAF. For example, there was the R-Darter, which - while an ARM - was becoming a dated solution, and Denel's next-gen BVRAAM programs (e.g. T-Darter) were just not entering development.

In fact, I was speaking to a South African engineer familiar with Denel's dealings with Pakistan a few weeks ago; the company had hoped to engage in a number of projects, but in the mid-2000s, the BRICS mantra and India's lure for lucrative contracts encouraged the company's leadership close the door on Pakistan (and in the process abandon a number of promising programs).

For one reason (e.g. corruption allegations) or another ("IP theft in India" - his words, not mine), Denel was not able to effectively enter the Indian market. "It was a regretful decision" (again, his words, not mine).

The PAF was interested in the MICA-RF, but that tunnel collapsed.

Besides that, there wasn't much of anything else, besides perhaps some even older semi-active radar-homing (SARH) solutions such as the Aspide. Unfortunately, and to @Bilal Khan 777's point, the PAF has yet to secure a true next-gen AAM solution - i.e. a platform that will stay relevant for not a few years, but at least 10-15 years. In that regard, it is a matter of studying who is in practical possession of the best concepts.

SD-10 is a stop gap measure, but JF17 will see more. The life beyond SD-10 will see more weapons being inducted.

Earlier questions of how to mate radars with AAM. In case of an active seeker AAM, that is not required. JF17 has two mission computers and a stores management system. The main interfacing point is the mission computer.

Hello Sir,

You are touching on a subject that most people cannot comprehend. When bad decisions are made---terrible things happen immediately and in the long run---.

Bad decisions not only have an immediate effect---but they have a MULTIPLIER effects that lingers on for years to come---and raises its ugly head where you least expect it to.

And that is when I come back to the year 2002---2005. A vendor knowing that a sale is must to save the life of its fighter aircraft industry---a buyer totally oblivious to the fact---or does not care.

The consequences of not buying the Rafale are going to haunt the paf for many a coming decades---.

I think that the Paf needs to find a way to get hooked up with the EFT and some goodies for the JF17----.

I would rather have that package with 24---30 EFT's than 40 SU35's---.



Hi,

I do not understand why you are upset at the word copy----. Copying is a form of art that few have---.

Copying something means that you have the ability to get into the head of the person who designed that item---if your copy meets the abilities of the one copied from---then technically you are ahead of the originator----but if you end up making a better system out of the copy---then you capabilities are way way ahead of those of the original manufacturer.

Which means that you just needed to be shown a direction---and your inner intellect superior brain power took it over and took things to the next level up.

So---next time when someone says " it is a copy "---you better smile and say---" yes it is ---and we have more coming from where it came from".

As someone pointed out, EFT has its own unique set of issues.