From MiG-21 to JF-17. The evolution of the ultimate single engine light fighter.

[A.P. Richelieu]

Wrong.

JF-17 was designed by a joint team of Sino Pakistani scientists and engineers. The design requirements were laid out by the customer, PAF not Chengdu.

Pakistan tested both F-20 in late 80s and Gripen in 90s.

That Pakistan has tested Gripen, is something that is claimed from time to time,
but noone has ever provided any source that shows it ever happened.

I very much doubt that this would happen without the approval of the Swedish Government.
After all, all Gripens are government property.
When Musharraf mentioned interest in Gripen when visiting Sweden, he was told to forget it. Rather bluntly!

I also doubt that it would happen without it making the news here.
I am confident that I would know about it, and remember it.

Certainly, no Gripen has ever landed in Pakistan.

The only possibility I could think of would be some Pakistani allowed up in a dual seater at air exibition, but that is hardly ”testing” it.

Consider it a myth, until proven otherwise.

 

[Kompromat]

This is back during the 90s, when the US told Pakistan that it won't deliver our F-16s but wouldn't object to a sale made by Sweden or France (M2k). Gripen was also pitched to and tested by Pakistan in 2005-6 but the sale didn't materialise.

Pakistan doesn't advertise systems its in the process of buying. For instance the PAF competed tests on Eurofighter & Rafales in mid 2000s but it never landed in the "news".

That Pakistan has tested Gripen, is something that is claimed from time to time,
but noone has ever provided any source that shows it ever happened.

I very much doubt that this would happen without the approval of the Swedish Government.
After all, all Gripens are government property.
When Musharaff mentioned interest in Gripen when visiting Sweden, he was told to forget it. Rather bluntly!

I also doubt that it would happen without it making the news here.
I am confident that I would know about it, and remember it.

Certainly, no Gripen has ever landed in Pakistan.

The only possibility I could think of would be some Pakistani allowed up in a dual seater at air exibition, but that is hardly ”testing” it.

Consider it a myth, until proven otherwise.

 

[A.P. Richelieu]

This is back during the 90s, when the US told Pakistan that it won't deliver our F-16s but wouldn't object to a sale made by Sweden or France (M2k). Gripen was also pitched to and tested by Pakistan in 2005-6 but the sale didn't materialise.

Pakistan doesn't advertise systems its in the process of buying. For instance the PAF competed tests on Eurofighter & Rafales in mid 2000s but it never landed in the "news".

That is pure bullshit. Pakistan was told in 2004 that there was no way that they could buy Gripen.

http://www.defense-aerospace.com/ar...’t-sell-gripen-jets-to-pakistan-(july-8).html

July 7, 2004:

ISLAMABAD --- In a setback to Pakistan’s efforts to get new generation Swedish-made Gripen fighter planes, Stockholm has said that it will not sell any weapons or weapon-related equipment to Islamabad.

“There is no question of selling them weapons or anything directly related to weapons,” Swedish Foreign Minister Laila Freivalds said after her talks with visiting Pakistan President Pervez Musharraf in Stockholm yesterday.
...

Pakistan was allowed to buy EriEye, not Gripen.

 

[Kompromat]

If you know how to read properly, I've already stated that the sale didn't materialise for XYZ reasons. Most likely because Sweden wanted to pitch Gripen to Indian MMRCA tender of 126 jets and by denying 60 Gripens to Pakistan it hoped to create conducive political atmosphere with India. In the end Sweden sold zero Gripens because Indians bailed. That's a total of 186 Gripens not sold, worth a fortune.

The OP was that JF-17 was inspired by Gripen in terms of weight, performance, cockpit and weapons payload.

Whether to sell or not to sell Gripen is a political question and either way Pakistan gets to fulfill its needs.

Sweden didn't sell us Gripens, Americans didn't sell us F-16s and we didn't purchase Mirage 2000 because India already had that aircraft.

Thus the JF-17 was born, incorporating everything we wanted at a price point deemed affordable to a small economy like Pakistan.

Now the JF-17 Thunder Block-II/III is competing against JAS-39 Gripen for Malaysian tender. That speaks volumes about the perseverance of Pakistan in general. We build a fighter aircraft project out of sanctions.

That is pure bullshit. Pakistan was told in 2004 that there was no way that they could buy Gripen.

http://www.defense-aerospace.com/ar...’t-sell-gripen-jets-to-pakistan-(july-8).html

July 7, 2004:

ISLAMABAD --- In a setback to Pakistan’s efforts to get new generation Swedish-made Gripen fighter planes, Stockholm has said that it will not sell any weapons or weapon-related equipment to Islamabad.

“There is no question of selling them weapons or anything directly related to weapons,” Swedish Foreign Minister Laila Freivalds said after her talks with visiting Pakistan President Pervez Musharraf in Stockholm yesterday.
...

Pakistan was allowed to buy EriEye, not Gripen.

 

[Taimoor Khan]

You have to be blind to somehow come to conclusion that Mig21 and JF17 share the same DNA.

Sharing design features with f16 and f18 will make more sense.

 

[Beast]

The cancelled Mig-33 was the base from which this JF-17 evolved from. The cancelled Mig-33 program was sold off to the Chinese in the mid-90's by the Russians.

Sorry, that is BS. The Soviet themselves cant even finalised what the Mig-33 will be and all existed is just a wooden model which looks nothing like present JF-17. It just a concept. Why would China paid for an incomplete concept plane that led to nowhere? Might as well save the money and developed an whole new place,

The current most advance model of Mig-21 is this FCT-2000G

Crank enlarged wing to increase fuel capacity and low speed handling, extra pylon got each wing , giving it 7 weapon hardpoints. DSI to improve air inlet flow and reduced weight and reduced RCS of engine blade. Larger nosecone to house a more powerful PESA or mechanical slot radar. Capable of advance training and air combat duty. Payload is 3 tons.

JF-17 got nothing to do with Mig-21 and Mig-33.

 

[Tokhme khar]

Not true, the Project 33 has an uncanny resemblance to the JF-17. It's just been tweaked and modified. This was to be the soviet F-16ski. Meant to be exported to its Warsaw pact and other poorer allies as the Mig-29 was expensive and difficult to maintain and operate. Not to mention the erstwhile USSR refused to export the su-27 when it was under secrecy in the late 80's:

https://hushkit.net/2016/09/01/10-incredible-soviet-fighter-aircraft-that-never-entered-service/

FYI the USSR also transferred the 'Heavy Migs' prototypes (E-152M) to the PLAAF from which the Chinee derived their J-8's. Later Egypt transferred a number of Mig-21M's and early Mig-23Ms floggers which were also copied into various variants including the technology into modified J-8's with the side intakes and a Mig-23 nose.

Sorry, that is BS. The Soviet themselves cant even finalised what the Mig-33 will be and all existed is just a wooden model which looks nothing like present JF-17. It just a concept. Why would China paid for an incomplete concept plane that led to nowhere? Might as well save the money and developed an whole new place,

The current most advance model of Mig-21 is this FCT-2000G

Crank enlarged wing to increase fuel capacity and low speed handling, extra pylon got each wing , giving it 7 weapon hardpoints. DSI to improve air inlet flow and reduced weight and reduced RCS of engine blade. Larger nosecone to house a more powerful PESA or mechanical slot radar. Capable of advance training and air combat duty. Payload is 3 tons.

JF-17 got nothing to do with Mig-21 and Mig-33.

 

[A.P. Richelieu]

If you know how to read properly, I've already stated that the sale didn't materialise for XYZ reasons. Most likely because Sweden wanted to pitch Gripen to Indian MMRCA tender of 126 jets and by denying 60 Gripens to Pakistan it hoped to create conducive political atmosphere with India. In the end Sweden sold zero Gripens because Indians bailed. That's a total of 186 Gripens not sold, worth a fortune.

The OP was that JF-17 was inspired by Gripen in terms of weight, performance, cockpit and weapons payload.

Whether to sell or not to sell Gripen is a political question and either way Pakistan gets to fulfill its needs.

Sweden didn't sell us Gripens, Americans didn't sell us F-16s and we didn't purchase Mirage 2000 because India already had that aircraft.

Thus the JF-17 was born, incorporating everything we wanted at a price point deemed affordable to a small economy like Pakistan.

Now the JF-17 Thunder Block-II/III is competing against JAS-39 Gripen for Malaysian tender. That speaks volumes about the perseverance of Pakistan in general. We build a fighter aircraft project out of sanctions.

The fact is that Pakistan never got to evaluate Gripen.
Pakistani pilots did not test Gripen.
The main reason is that Pakistan is a country to which we do not want to sell any material that can be used to repress any democratic movement.

 

[Beast]

Not true, the Project 33 has an uncanny resemblance to the JF-17. It's just been tweaked and modified. This was to be the soviet F-16ski. Meant to be exported to its Warsaw pact and other poorer allies as the Mig-29 was expensive and difficult to maintain and operate. Not to mention the erstwhile USSR refused to export the su-27 when it was under secrecy in the late 80's:

https://hushkit.net/2016/09/01/10-incredible-soviet-fighter-aircraft-that-never-entered-service/

FYI the USSR also transferred the 'Heavy Migs' prototypes (E-152M) to the PLAAF from which the Chinee derived their J-8's. Later Egypt transferred a number of Mig-21M's and early Mig-23Ms floggers which were also copied into various variants including the technology into modified J-8's with the side intakes and a Mig-23 nose.

Mig-33 is a concept plane but not related to JF-17. JF-17 is essentially designed from ground up. The only similar will be build upon RD-93 engine. It just like saying LCA and Gripen derived from each other just becos they share the same engine plant. A lot of so called western source knows nothing about Chinese project and they just spew the typical stereotyping rubbish that Chinese cant designed anything up from ground and needs to copy or borrow from other thing. The best source about Chinese project needs to get from Chinese source and historical documentary. I suggest you stop looking into those so called western source self made link. Those are the same western sources that rubbish all the achievement about Iranian industries right? In fact, JF-17 has more influence from F-16 than Mig-33 which Pakistan incorporate their experiences from their F-16 fleet to advised on JF-17 chief designers.

The fact is that Pakistan never got to evaluate Gripen.
Pakistani pilots did not test Gripen.
The main reason is that Pakistan is a country to which we do not want to sell any material that can be used to repress any democratic movement.

Dont kid yourself.

You mean swedish is selective in delivering the so called democracy? Sourgrapes, your lousy gripen is not selected and then claimed sour. Not willing to export to PAF becos of Pakistan democracy issue? LOL... @Horus

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Thai_coup_d'état

https://www.hrw.org/news/2018/05/21/unending-repression-thailand-4-years-after-coup

Unending Repression in Thailand 4 Years After Coup

Why suddenly sell to Thai army Junta who suppressed democracy and freedom? Selective or excuses? Tell me?

 

[American Pakistani]

Why suddenly sell to Thai army Junta who suppressed democracy and freedom? Selective or excuses? Tell me?

He is just trolling. If you look at his source, it is based on "press trust of india", that says it all.

 

[Beast]

He is just trolling. If you look at his source, it is based on "press trust of india", that says it all.

He is a sourgraped. Bad loser. When loses a game or competition. He will claim bad weather, black magic or competitor play trick. End of the day, my product is world best and unrivaled. Others are crapped.

Look at his mentality.

 

[Kompromat]

Gripen is no space age tech. Its still inferior to F-16s we've been flying to 30 years. No country would even begin negotiations for an aircraft without flying it. Its an SOP in the industry.

As i said, Swedish got punched in the face due to their own Greed.

The fact is that Pakistan never got to evaluate Gripen.
Pakistani pilots did not test Gripen.

The main reason is that Pakistan is a country to which we do not want to sell any material that can be used to repress any democratic movement.

This post is an evidence of your total ignorance to the political situation in this region. Which "democratic movement" is being "suppressed" by Pakistan which requires using jets?

Gripen wasn't indispensable to Pakistan's Security matrix. Sweden didn't sell us because they wanted to sell to India because their tender was bigger. In the end Swedish received dust in the face from India.

By that time Pakistan's own Gripen was accepted in service.

Gripen or no Gripen, we get what we want.

No one cares. Our F-16s can still skin these Gripens and have them for lunch.

Swedes refused to sell Gripen that didn't stop us. Now our jet is competing AGAINST the jet they denied us.

Mig-33 is a concept plane but not related to JF-17. JF-17 is essentially designed from ground up. The only similar will be build upon RD-93 engine. It just like saying LCA and Gripen derived from each other just becos they share the same engine plant. A lot of so called western source knows nothing about Chinese project and they just spew the typical stereotyping rubbish that Chinese cant designed anything up from ground and needs to copy or borrow from other thing. The best source about Chinese project needs to get from Chinese source and historical documentary. I suggest you stop looking into those so called western source self made link. Those are the same western sources that rubbish all the achievement about Iranian industries right? In fact, JF-17 has more influence from F-16 than Mig-33 which Pakistan incorporate their experiences from their F-16 fleet to advised on JF-17 chief designers.


Dont kid yourself.

You mean swedish is selective in delivering the so called democracy? Sourgrapes, your lousy gripen is not selected and then claimed sour. Not willing to export to PAF becos of Pakistan democracy issue? LOL... @Horus

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Thai_coup_d'état

https://www.hrw.org/news/2018/05/21/unending-repression-thailand-4-years-after-coup

Unending Repression in Thailand 4 Years After Coup

Why suddenly sell to Thai army Junta who suppressed democracy and freedom? Selective or excuses? Tell me?

At Farnborough airshow a journalist asked SAAB rep, why they're charging such high prices when the disparity between Gripen & Thunder is only marginally in favour of Gripen. He had no answer. @Beast