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French Avionics for JF-17

I have had enough of this.

Kharian Beast, I am sorry but I found quite a bit of amateurish stuff and not-so-well thought out ideas in your post, making it look like we live in some utopia. Not only are some of your ideas very vague and biased to support your argument, but you have also choose to use an argument against JF-17 and completely ignore it when it comes to your ideas.

May I ask why?

Here's a rebuttal to some of your points.

If PAF had gone for Rafael instead you wouldn't see this scathing dose of reality from my end.

Factual error No. 1: The JF-17 project was started in 1999 and at that time, no Rafale, no EF, no Gripen, no F-16 was available because Pakistan was under sanctions. And nobody in PAF was an astrologist to predict that 9/11 will have and sanctions would eventually be lifted.

Prior to 1999, we know what PAF had wanted and you know what happened ( with french mirages and Mr. 10%).


Some say as many as 250 JF-17 are to be ordered. 250 x$ 20 million = $5 billion USD

With upgrades and inflation might reach $8 billion USD in the end.
$8.5 Billion USD went to clear waste.

This could have purchased around 100 Rafale with possibilities of building some at home.


Factual Error No 2: Please, let me know who is selling 100 Rafales for $8.5 billion. May be you are ignorant of the Brazillian deal?

And why are you omitting the cos associated with "possibilities of building some at home". So the JF-17 will require the cost of setting up of assembly line, etc and the Rafale won't? Considering the airframe of Rafale is quite advanced, maybe you should tell us how much they will cost and remember they will be built by Dassault?

Oh, and as usual, depreciation and inflation only applies to JF-17. The Rafale is going to stay at constant price, won't it?

Factual Error No. 3: Pakistan had just committed to 150 planes. Anything above that will depend on our needs and our purchasing power. If you have the funds, we can go for higher numbers of F-16s, Rafales or even F-22 (Hey, we are living in fantasy so why not)

Also did you take the operating cost into account? Please do check that the cost of flying an aeroplane is in the thousands of dolloars per hour. So it matters a lot of what no only you want to fly but you can afford to fly. Least, you have your planes sitting on a tarmac and your pilots poorly trained and inexperienced.


Further upgradation to upcoming engine and radar of Rafale could have been seamlessly integrated and represented true growth and maturity


Sure, a US$41million per plane upgrade and that too without an engine upgrade on an outdated and less complex Mirage sounds as seamless an integration and true growth as you have beautifully said in one phrase.


I would take 100 Rafs over 250 FC-1 any day.

Sure, Sir...what a brilliant strategy!

While your 100 Rafales won't let anyone come close to the upper half of the country, the enemy would be having a walk in the park in the southern part because you do not have enough planes to field there.

Oh, and must I remind you that the last time we engaged in such fantasies of taking our F-16s over anything didn't work out because the sanction-prone F-16s were watching Kargil at home on Satellite TV.

Suppose things change and we are sanctioned again in 5 years time, would you switch gear and say "I had been shouting going indigenous and self sufficient all the time"?

This is not World War 2 where being a good dog fighter wins engagements

Would you please enlighten us as to how many BVR missiles have been shot to date, what was their predicted kill ratio and what was the actual kill ratio? and at what range were these missiles fire?

And while we are at it, please let us know how a SD-10 or MICA is a World War 2 missile.



Sure JF-17 is no break-through in the world of aviation and nothing that will take as ahead of the race, but are we willing and are we financially capable of joining this race? The USSR was a superpower, a big economy, all the technology, everything but what happened? Did it loose to F-22 and B-2? Do we want to follow the same tradition?

The PAF (and Pakistan) has no choice but to retain a minimum deterrence strategy. And no the JF-17 is not the "flying kite" and "little better than a trainer" that you have tried to convey to us. If we can afford and get our hands on a good avionics and missile, it can give any moder 4.5th generation fighter a run for its money.

If I've to defend an air space as large as ours, and with a budget as tight as ours, I will definitely go for 250 JF-17s over a (doubtful) 100 Rafales anytime of any day.

P.S. I do not mean any disrespect but the above points are purely for the sake of discussion here. I was rather surprised (and disappointed) by some of the arguments you have presented.
 
mean bird you have taken my post out of context and then provided lots of speculative hodge podge opinions as rebuttal. The post you quoted above intentionally was meant for nabil who told me that I wouldn't even be happy if PAF chose Rafale over JF-17 because he himself can't come up with any good reasons either.That is why I brought Rafale into this and if you do your homework you will agree with me on that post. However I've already added in other discussions that I think J-10 was a better project. In this thread I just wanted to let people know that 60% of JF-17 costs are going to go up with French packages. I am going to end the discussion here because I now know that this a fanboy section. Allow me to leave this thread in peace.
 
@Kharian Beast

Fair enough if you think I quoted out of context, and do not wish to continue further. As for the rest, I did my homework and do stand by my points but you are entitled to have your opinions on the JF-17.
As far as the J-10 project is concerned it has some of the same issues as the Rafale. Its more expensive than our pocket allows us to have it as a workhorse and there is still a problem of engines in it. RD-93 was one thing, AL-31 is another story.
 
This article is written by Group Caption Khalid Mehmood.

:chilli:

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gud article buddy i hope it will help kharian beast to change his mode of thnkng anywayz can u mention the date on which ths article was published
 
"In close combat the JF-17 excels at being truly agile and responsive to the pilot's commands."

..."But everything else is sh**"

This is not World War 2 where being a good dog fighter wins engagements.

Look I cant rebuff your allegations because OF SENSITIVE INFO. BUT BELIEVE ME YOU ARE SO WRONG YOU DONT KNOW WHAT YOU ARE ON ABOUT. PAF remains aware of its shortcomings. Why do you think we went JF17ways and not down the route of more Bl52s or M2Ks.The otpions are still open .Why are we not taking them? Think brother
Araz
 
Look I cant rebuff your allegations because OF SENSITIVE INFO. BUT BELIEVE ME YOU ARE SO WRONG YOU DONT KNOW WHAT YOU ARE ON ABOUT. PAF remains aware of its shortcomings. Why do you think we went JF17ways and not down the route of more Bl52s or M2Ks.The otpions are still open .Why are we not taking them? Think brother
Araz

r u talking about the sensitive info about jf-17?
 
mean bird you have taken my post out of context and then provided lots of speculative hodge podge opinions as rebuttal. The post you quoted above intentionally was meant for nabil who told me that I wouldn't even be happy if PAF chose Rafale over JF-17 because he himself can't come up with any good reasons either.That is why I brought Rafale into this and if you do your homework you will agree with me on that post. However I've already added in other discussions that I think J-10 was a better project. In this thread I just wanted to let people know that 60% of JF-17 costs are going to go up with French packages. I am going to end the discussion here because I now know that this a fanboy section. Allow me to leave this thread in peace.



I can argue with all day long and you will still struggle to match my argument. The reason i do not engage in any arguments here is because this is a military forum where we have to remain on topics in hand.

Thanks
 
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Look I cant rebuff your allegations because OF SENSITIVE INFO. BUT BELIEVE ME YOU ARE SO WRONG YOU DONT KNOW WHAT YOU ARE ON ABOUT. PAF remains aware of its shortcomings. Why do you think we went JF17ways and not down the route of more Bl52s or M2Ks.The otpions are still open .Why are we not taking them? Think brother
Araz

OPTIONS might be OPEN but who has the funds??:coffee:

hell our very own JFs we are getting them on SOFT LOANS! :hitwall:

anyhow why are we so keen on a french avionics package why not try going the way of the italians or even the Russians...hell after all the russians gave us the engines...maybe even avionics....& before anyone comes up with the logic of spares issue well the chinese know the russian avionics like the back of their hands!

just my take on it...why do we always limit ourselves to the french option & not the UK the swedes or any other nation that produces fighters....
 
OPTIONS might be OPEN but who has the funds??:coffee:

hell our very own JFs we are getting them on SOFT LOANS! :hitwall:

anyhow why are we so keen on a french avionics package why not try going the way of the italians or even the Russians...hell after all the russians gave us the engines...maybe even avionics....& before anyone comes up with the logic of spares issue well the chinese know the russian avionics like the back of their hands!

just my take on it...why do we always limit ourselves to the french option & not the UK the swedes or any other nation that produces fighters....

Russia may have given us the engine but u must know they havnt given us with that much ease at one stage russian stopped the export of engine but it was due to the efforts of China that we got it,and also India who is using ~80% of Russian technology and having joint projects with Russia will never allow them to export anythng to Pakistan,so Russia out of question,About sweeden a lot of sweedish technology has a lot of US influence n u know the unpredictability of US they can put embargo at any time so the aim of going indeginous will remain a dream ,French just need money they can give u their best technology if u give them handsome amount of money , Going french will also help to some extent as China will rapid up their efforts to develop a new engine and more advance radar in order to compete so all n all it will be gud just keep ur fingers cross
 
Russia may have given us the engine but u must know they havnt given us with that much ease at one stage russian stopped the export of engine but it was due to the efforts of China that we got it,and also India who is using ~80% of Russian technology and having joint projects with Russia will never allow them to export anythng to Pakistan,so Russia out of question,About sweeden a lot of sweedish technology has a lot of US influence n u know the unpredictability of US they can put embargo at any time so the aim of going indeginous will remain a dream ,French just need money they can give u their best technology if u give them handsome amount of money , Going french will also help to some extent as China will rapid up their efforts to develop a new engine and more advance radar in order to compete so all n all it will be gud just keep ur fingers cross
The problem with Sweden is not only the US techs, but they mainly co-develop their techs and weapons with other countries from Europe. Another problem could be, that their Gov don't sell weapons so easy to any country as France does.
Russian radars were on offer for J10 too, here were an article in the J10 thread last year, about more Russian engines and the Zhuk ME radar. But I think now IAF will use them on their Mig 29s as well as IN on the Ks, I think that road has closed.
 
The problem with Sweden is not only the US techs, but they mainly co-develop their techs and weapons with other countries from Europe. Another problem could be, that their Gov don't sell weapons so easy to any country as France does.
Russian radars were on offer for J10 too, here were an article in the J10 thread last year, about more Russian engines and the Zhuk ME radar. But I think now IAF will use them on their Mig 29s as well as IN on the Ks, I think that road has closed.

if even Russia has provided their Zhuk ME radar i dun thnk Paf would lyk to get it currently j-10 have russian engine and Paf is seeking for some chinese or western one to replace it
 
if even Russia has provided their Zhuk ME radar i dun thnk Paf would lyk to get it currently j-10 have russian engine and Paf is seeking for some chinese or western one to replace it
For J10? I thought PAF is searching for an engine for JF 17!
Btw, there are not many engines available if you don't want Russians. Chinese seems to be not ready yet, US engines seems to be not liked anymore, which leaves only European. The EJ 200 from EF is on offer and the most likely choice for LCA and the M88 of Rafale offers not enough thrust so far, which leaves only the M53 engine of Mirage 2k again. It's en older gen engine, not sure if thrust alone is what PAF searches for JF 17.
 
The J-10's engine will not be a problem even for PAF as the Chinese are also using the same engine in their variants. It was a different story for thunder as it was not adapted for China and Russians initially were reluctant to supply the engine to Pakistan. Russians know that they cannot piss Chinese by blocking the AL-31 FN sale even if the same engine is installed in FC-20 which so far is the case.
 

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