France workers sacked for fasting!!!

[Agnostic_Indian]

It helps to debate with facts instead of hyperbole. A fast lasts from sunrise to sunset; it does NOT extend "for days".

Lots of people around the world do their normal jobs while fasting. Including construction workers.



Your off-topic lecture notwithstanding, this is not a debate about the virtues of secularism. I have already explained why no one complains about Vatican City or KSA, but I know you guys will ignore it since it will take the steam off your off-topic debate.



Already addressed.

everything becomes off topic when you don't have convincing answers to defend you hypocrisy .


if you people are honest you will criticise Chinese , Saudi , Pakistani actions also which is against the spirit of equal treatment of citizen and religions .

as an Indian if I don't support the genuine rights and needs of minorities , of India then morally I am not eligible to talk about minorities in Pakistan.

you are saying France is secular country so they must not discriminate Muslims. so secular system is opposite to a discriminating system .


if you your self support / believe a discriminating system in your country , and say it is majority opinion , it is ok that state favour a religions .. then that means you believe, that. discriminating system is a good system. when France discriminate a religion that action becomes equal to the act of a theocratic state .

so both actions are same in effect .

only difference is French action becomes hypocratic.


. In France as well as other theocratic , autocratic states a religions , citizens right to be treated as equal/ religious freedom is denied .

The problem here is all Pakistanis criticise France for not delivering what it promised ( the promised thing should be a good thing other wise people won't criticise them for not keeping promise )

eg:
if France was originally declared as a military dictatorship but still provide all the civilian, democratic rights then will France becoming hypocritical becomes a concern or you will appreciate the good result of it ?
will pak Muslims criticise France if it was Christian theocratic state and it still treats Islam equally .. ? the action is a hypocrisy according to a statues of the nation ( Christian theocratic state ) but the result is morally better than what it should have been. )


so which is of a greater concern a action being hypocritic or a action being morally wrong? which is off greater concern hypocrisy or equal treatment of citizen and religion ?

I think even if the action is hypocritic(as in example) if the end result is good then it is better than not being hypocritc while the policy / action is still wrong. or in other words if the end result is discrimination then what difference does it make whether the policy it ise hypocratic or not. ? only difference is, in countries where the action is hypocratic there you have a chance to appeal against it because the policy is against the fundamentals of the nation.. where as in countries where the policy is not hypocritical but has the same bad effect(discrimination) , citizen their has no hopes of getting equal treatment..because it being denied officially.. so even though action of secular democratic govts: are some times hypocratic/ discriminating ,people there are still at advantage because they can challenge the policy / action of the govt .

a moderate secular country is always better than a fully theocratic , autocratic state. there is no perfect secular state, there will always be imperfections , but the system itself gives it a chance of improving it , correcting it , to make it near perfection.


( I tried my best to explain , not sure whether I put it well or not )

 

[Roybot]

Oh we know EXACTLY why you guys jump on the bandwagon to defend every anti-Muslim action anywhere in the world.

Lets hear it then? Enough of this victim mentality.

t is NOT about isolated incidents. If this was something by a private entity, it would be one thing but, for an official govt. body to act this way is worthy of notice. Along with the French weasel law that bans headscarves but allowed cross-pendants, the debate on the burqa, the Swiss ban on minarets, etc. this is all part of a larger pattern.

Yes of course there is a rising paranoia, who knows further down the line these countries might even loose "the secular tag" ( just doing that would make it OK according to your logic), and not let people of other faith in. If thats what the people of these countries want then so be it.

 

[AUz]

Frenchies are such embarrassment ...

Thank God I live in America

 

[somebozo]

About time we start arming the french rebels

 

[scrumpy]

The rule that the employees shouldn't fast was put in there after an incident involving a girl who had not eaten her lunch. When the rule was put in place, it was not to stop Muslim's fasting but for safety reasons.

Now the question is.. what is more important, safety or religion?

It appears that the employer to prevent controversies decided to go in favour of religion. However this leaves them open to accusations of not giving enough thought to safety. When it comes to kids, parents do go mental if there is any mention of danger. I wonder what happens next.

What are the airline rules with fasting pilots? Are they allowed to fly planes when fasting?
Blackouts are quiet common when you haven't had enough. I imagine that there are rules which prevent fasting pilots from flying with similar concerns about safety.

 

[somebozo]

China curbs Ramadan fasting in Xinjiang - Asia-Pacific - Al Jazeera English

 

[Cloakedvessel]

Lots of people around the world do their normal jobs while fasting. Including construction workers.

Is that really true?

Seems that economic productivity sharply drops in the Muslim world every year.

“Between the heat and the fasting, no one goes out to shop in the daytime,” says Adel Khalil, an elderly clerk in a fabric shop. He busily fans himself with a piece of cardboard while a dozen co-workers sprawl out, exhausted, on the shop’s display cases. Ramadan in August means longer, hotter days of fasting, with temperatures around 40 degrees Celsius. “Some people shop at night,” says Mr Khalil, “but there is no real work until the end of the month.”

Economic productivity drops sharply every year during Ramadan, when workers abstain from food and drink in daylight. The festive mood and physical exhaustion take a visible toll on many Egyptians, whose energies weaken and tempers flare as the weeks of fasting drag on. This affects all good Muslims, from manual labourers to office workers.

The work rate dips not only because of the physical toll of fasting but also because of work-place rules introduced to cope with Ramadan. In Egypt the working day is shortened on average to six hours. Similar systems have been adopted elsewhere in the Arab world.

A reduction of two hours’ work a day means that 40 hours are lost in the month, equalling a week of full-time work for everyone in the formal sector. A study published last year by Dinar Standard, a consulting group that specialises in the Muslim world, suggests that Ramadan may cut the month’s GDP by nearly 8%. Last year in Egypt that would have meant a loss of $1.4 billion.

Egypt and Ramadan: Hot and slow | The Economist

Night life activity also increases during the month of Ramadan which often results in a lower performance rate during the day.

Ramadan Mubarak!

On the other hand, the underperformance of Saudi cement firms reflects the shorter working day, and lower productivity of fasting laborers.

The Ramadan effect Cover Story

Productivity Decreases by 4% during Ramazan
Study estimates

New York: According to the results of a new survey, 77% of Muslim professionals said they try to maintain the same level of work productivity during Ramadan as they do outside of Ramadan, and feel that work should continue uninterrupted. At the same time, they do expect flexibility to perform optimally both in Muslim majority countries and in countries where they are minorities. What are these areas of flexibility needs? What are the levels of employee satisfaction during Ramazan?
DinarStandard, a Muslim market research and business media firm, and ProductiveMuslim Ltd, a productivity training and media firm, have joined forces to deliver a ground-breaking study that presents a fact-based assessment of the state of productivity during Ramadan across the world and offers recommendations for improving productivity of individuals, businesses and government institutions during Ramadan.
The study also looks at the differences in reduced Ramazan working hours in various Muslim majority countries and their economic impact. The study estimates a 4% decrease in productivity in the month’s GDP (Gross Domestic product) for each hour of work reduction per work day. This finding raises various questions for these governments to consider while searching for the right balance of Ramazan work-hour flexibility.
Rafiuddin Shikoh, the author of the report and Managing Director of Dinar Standard states, “For the first time, we have an actual pulse of what Muslim professionals expect and struggle with during Ramadan. These are strong insights that can help employers not only build goodwill with their Muslim employees, but directly and positively affect their companies’ productivity.” Mohammed Faris, Founder & CEO, Productive Muslim Ltd adds, “The survey results also show areas of spiritual activities that most Muslims struggle with during Ramazan, which can be addressed with better preparation—an area in which employers can also play a supporting role.”
For Muslim majority country based employers, the survey highlights arranging Iftar and Eid gatherings, and arranging for special Ramazan working hours, prayer times and facilities as key requests of employees. Muslim employees in Muslim minority countries were less happy with their employers’ flexibility during Ramadan. Despite the lower satisfaction rate, the researchers consider the results (48%) to be encouraging and indicative of the growing trend of businesses to accommodate a diverse workforce. Providing work-hour flexibility was the biggest request of these employees.
The survey was conducted online prior to Ramazan 2011, and marketed to Muslims in five key Muslim-majority countries (Malaysia, Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Pakistan, UAE) as well as five countries with sizeable Muslim minorities (USA, UK, Canada, India, Australia.) A total of 1524 responses were received, representing a 99% confidence level with a +/- 4% margin of error.
(DinarStandard specializes in the emerging Muslim markets, helping companies with their growth strategies. It has been a pioneer in researching and highlighting the emergence of the Muslim Lifestyle Market globally).
(ProductiveMuslim Ltd is a private UK company dedicated to promoting productivity amongst Muslims worldwide for members).

http://www.islamicvoice.com/September2011/COVERSTORY/

 

[Safriz]

The rule that the employees shouldn't fast was put in there after an incident involving a girl who had not eaten her lunch. When the rule was put in place, it was not to stop Muslim's fasting but for safety reasons.

Now the question is.. what is more important, safety or religion?

It appears that the employer to prevent controversies decided to go in favour of religion. However this leaves them open to accusations of not giving enough thought to safety. When it comes to kids, parents do go mental if there is any mention of danger. I wonder what happens next.

What are the airline rules with fasting pilots? Are they allowed to fly planes when fasting?
Blackouts are quiet common when you haven't had enough. I imagine that there are rules which prevent fasting pilots from flying with similar concerns about safety.

Not eating one's lunch does not compromise safety..
We don't see a surge in road accidents or other accidents in Muslim countries where millions are fasting in intense heat...
So this argument by experience and observation is lame and an excuse to persecute Muslims.

Is that really true?

Seems that economic productivity sharply drops in the Muslim world every year.



Egypt and Ramadan: Hot and slow | The Economist



Ramadan Mubarak!



The Ramadan effect Cover Story

Productivity Decreases by 4% during Ramazan
Study estimates



http://www.islamicvoice.com/September2011/COVERSTORY/

I dont agree with the ststs...
Fruit sales and processed cooked food sales goes off the chart in Ramzan and Eid more than compensates for the retailers for any lost revenues during Ramazan.

 

[Cloakedvessel]

Not eating one's lunch does not compromise safety..
We don't see a surge in road accidents or other accidents in Muslim countries where millions are fasting in intense heat...
So this argument by experience and observation is lame and an excuse to persecute Muslims.

Are you sure?

Oman

20% of all road accidents took place during Ramadan last year - Muscat Daily|Oman Newspaper

UAE

Peril of 'Ramadan rush hour' as Dubai police report 1,000s of smashes - The National

Saudi-Arabia

Road traffic accidents in Saudi Arabia. [Public Health. 1994] - PubMed - NCBI

Qatar

Qatargas supports Traffic Department

And you can go on...

 

[Agnostic_Indian]

The rule that the employees shouldn't fast was put in there after an incident involving a girl who had not eaten her lunch. When the rule was put in place, it was not to stop Muslim's fasting but for safety reasons.

Now the question is.. what is more important, safety or religion?

It appears that the employer to prevent controversies decided to go in favour of religion. However this leaves them open to accusations of not giving enough thought to safety. When it comes to kids, parents do go mental if there is any mention of danger. I wonder what happens next.

What are the airline rules with fasting pilots? Are they allowed to fly planes when fasting?
Blackouts are quiet common when you haven't had enough. I imagine that there are rules which prevent fasting pilots from flying with similar concerns about safety.

that is an interesting point .

so we may say in high risk jobs such as of a pilot , government , authorities can ban someone from doing the job if his health , strength is unfit . people who are responsible for high risk jobs should make sure that because of them no casualties happens.. they can surely believe that it will be equal to doing fasting for a year in front their god..because no ritual is greater than love and care for your fellow brothers and and people who trust you to ensure their safety .

-------------------

but I am having second thoughts about it
if the pilots job is high risk so is the job of a bus driver ? we can't stop all of them from fasting .. it will be bad .

 

[United]

Over $1trillion GCC consumables growth during Holy month of Ramadan

To cater to rise in demand during the Holy month, supplies are to be increased by more than 50 per cent according to a senior Consumer Protection Department official.
An average rise of 20-30 per cent is recorded during the Holy month of Ramadan from Muslim families and authorities said people should resist from hoarding as supplies would be increased to cater to the demand.
“The supplies would be increased by about 50 per cent,” said Al Nuaimi.

While many aspects of business life do indeed slow down, some areas, such as spending on food and other consumables experience a marked increase in activity. In essence, rather than simply slowing down, the character of the economies changes, with a rise in consumer spending helping to make up for the fall in other areas.

"Some sectors tend to get
more active during Ramadan," says
Esam Fakhro, chairman of the Bahrain Chamber of Commerce and Industry. "Though some sectors experience a slowdown you will find that, because of the social habits during the month of Ramadan, spending on food is in fact more than in the normal months.

But despite the impression that is created each Ramadan of lower economic activity, the reality
is rather more complex. The four weeks ending in the Eid al Fitr celebrations are a time of unusual burst in economic activity.

This rise in consumer spending can create its own problems, however, in particular leading to an increase in inflationary pressures. This happens both during Ramadan itself and in the months leading up to it, as households build up their stocks of food and other supplies.
Their research paper, Piety and Profits: Stock Market Anomaly During the Muslim Holy Month, examined stock market activity in 14 predominantly Muslim countries from 1989 to 2007, including the six GCC states. It found that 11 out of 14 countries had higher average returns during Ramadan – with an average return of 38.1 per cent during the month, compared to just 4.3 per cent through the rest of the year.

 

[fallstuff]

People are eating at least two meals a day.

There should be a standardized st*pid test for the French and for some folks before posting in some threads on PDF.

 

[Developereo]

Lets hear it then?

It's cute when you guys play innocent.

Yes of course there is a rising paranoia, who knows further down the line these countries might even loose "the secular tag" ( just doing that would make it OK according to your logic), and not let people of other faith in. If thats what the people of these countries want then so be it.

Are you actually trying to make a point here? If so, it is lost...

Is that really true?

Seems that economic productivity sharply drops in the Muslim world every year.

The issue here in the French action was alleged safety, not productivity. Actions have to be based on evidence specific to the case, not generic claims where cause and effect have not been established.

Correlation does not imply causation; there are numerous related factors.

Are you sure?

Oman

20% of all road accidents took place during Ramadan last year - Muscat Daily|Oman Newspaper

UAE

Peril of 'Ramadan rush hour' as Dubai police report 1,000s of smashes - The National

Saudi-Arabia

Road traffic accidents in Saudi Arabia. [Public Health. 1994] - PubMed - NCBI

Qatar

Qatargas supports Traffic Department

And you can go on...

Duh! You think it has anything to do with the fact that Ramadan is a festive season and people are out on the road much more.

The number of accidents in the West also rises during the Christmas holidays. Should we conclude that Christmas causes accidents?

 

[Thorough Pro]

What else do you expect from a lap dog except to bark in defence of his master!

indians bending over to france, a long way to go........

if a christian gets sacked for celebrating easter in pakistan...the whole world protests and shows how backward,medeival we are.
When france does similar...well indians are there to defend them.

 

[iPhone]

You can't fool me Razpak, 25 Dec is Jinnah's birthday in Pakistan, otherwise Pakistan don't provide public holidays for any non-Muslim festivals.

not true, we get ten days for christmas holidays. Quaid-e-Azam's birthday is only one of those days.

Yeah its kinda like North Koreans complaining about the lack of democratic rights in America. Non-Secular countries and people have no moral ground or right to complain.

Just saying hey your country is secular and mine is not, therefore you can't question and compare with me on secularism, is not a good enough excuse

Who is stopping you from making your country secular?

are you high or something? a north korean has every right to complain if he's wronged in a secular country. why else would he BE in a secular country if he cannot complain? what's the difference then between North Korea and whatever secular nation he is living in.

Some preferred beef in 1947 and guess what they are running for their life everyday in Karachi. I think our Muslim brothers are better than Chinese Muslims because Indian Muslims can observe Ramadan without having beef whereas Chinese Muslims can have beef but no Ramadan.

so india doesn't allow it's muslims to cut cow and eat beef, right?