France starts ban on full-face veil

[Developereo]

Then the same question is relevant "how large is large for a religious symbol?

The whole point of adding a subjective "ostentatious" to the law is add a loophole for traditional Christian symbols, i.e. cross pendants, while outlawing traditional Muslim, Jewish, Sikh symbols, i.e. headscarf, turban, yarmulka.

Like I wrote, if you want to disallow religious symbols, just say so. What add a loophole?

The secular French wanted to discriminate in favor of Christians, while maintaining the fiction of a secular law.

 

[ExtraOdinary]

The french are kinda bringing a bad name to secularism. Secularism stands for tolerance.

 

[jbond197]

The french are kinda bringing a bad name to secularism. Secularism stands for tolerance.

Security concerns weighs heavy over everything. The day these Burqa clad "Gentlemen"'s stop creating security threats to the common people's life, there will be no more bans of Burqas etc etc..

 

[narcon]

Let us respect the laws of each country where we are given the abode. Its about laws. Just as it is in Saudi Arabia which has some clothing restrictions even for men.

 

[Agnostic_Indian]

The whole point of adding a subjective "ostentatious" to the law is add a loophole for traditional Christian symbols, i.e. cross pendants, while outlawing traditional Muslim, Jewish, Sikh symbols, i.e. headscarf, turban, yarmulka.

Like I wrote, if you want to disallow religious symbols, just say so. What add a loophole?

The secular French wanted to discriminate in favor of Christians, while maintaining the fiction of a secular law.

I have different opinion in this regard.

French ban of full face cover is done sighting two reasons, one is protection of culture, dignity of women etc, which I don't think is a good excuse.
second one is security reasons and i support the ban and reason given.
head scarf, hijab is what mandatory for Muslim women, and it's widely used by them but Christian women, especially nuns also use it to cover the head so banning or allowing it is not targeted to Muslims alone.
in general I oppose banning any religious symbols or fashion other than full face cover..but again it could vary according to the merit of each case like I said earlier.

read this link where court sighting security reasons also as one of the reasons to uphold the ban.

UM.SiteMaker: Message

 

[Developereo]

French ban of full face cover is done sighting two reasons, one is protection of culture, dignity of women etc, which I don't think is a good excuse.
second one is security reasons and i support the ban and reason given.

I agree with you on both these points and I don't have any issue with the burqa ban for security reasons. Personal freedoms are ALWAYS subservient to society's security concerns.

 

[Audio]

The whole point of adding a subjective "ostentatious" to the law is add a loophole for traditional Christian symbols, i.e. cross pendants, while outlawing traditional Muslim, Jewish, Sikh symbols, i.e. headscarf, turban, yarmulka.

Like I wrote, if you want to disallow religious symbols, just say so. What add a loophole?

The secular French wanted to discriminate in favor of Christians, while maintaining the fiction of a secular law.

There is also the thing of when offering the finger and the hand gets taken it is best to retract that finger.

@Agnostic_Indian

See, here is a prime example of finger being offered and yet the hand is grabbed. Law gives provisions for small tokens of religion like crosses, crescents, stars of David etc....but the Muslim wants more then equality.

If this is given to him in 5 years he will demand as full burqa in government offices citing who knows what religious concern he might have. It's so transparent it makes one sick.

Good going, France.

 

[Developereo]

@Agnostic_Indian

See, here is a prime example of finger being offered and yet the hand is grabbed. Law gives provisions for small tokens of religion like crosses, crescents, stars of David etc....but the Muslim wants more then equality.

If this is given to him in 5 years he will demand as full burqa in government offices citing who knows what religious concern he might have. It's so transparent it makes one sick.

Demanding that people hold true to their claims of equal rights and secularism is not about finger or hand. It's about holding people accountable for their claims.

The French legal system doesn't say "Muslim citizens are second class citizens and will be granted a finger at the mercy of the majority. It says that all citizens are equal before the law and can expect equal treatment -- no favoritism based on religion."

I have absolutely no issue if France declares itself a Christian state and passes laws favoring Christians. But the current hypocrisy bears highlighting.

 

[Pboy]

Their country,

Their law.

As long as it doesnt go overboard, its okay.

 

[Audio]

Demanding that people hold true to their claims of equal rights and secularism is not about finger or hand. It's about holding people accountable for their claims.

The French legal system doesn't say "Muslim citizens are second class citizens and will be granted a finger at the mercy of the majority. It says that all citizens are equal before the law and can expect equal treatment -- no favoritism based on religion."

Equality is guaranteed by law, you jus't dont want to see it....straws and all that.

 

[Raja.Pakistani]

Your comparisons are false equivalences. When calling or chatting of course you don't see each others face, that is what we expect to be. The fundamental difference is that each side is in the same situation. There is the case of evenness, which is absent when I am in the opposite position of a person wearing a burqa. It's an unequal level of communication, which is not reproduced in telephonic communications or during a debate on a forum such as this.

I was not making any comparison. you said ban on veil is must for communication and i just said that there is something called verbal communication

I was saying that communication can be done without body language or facial expression which no doubt are important when you have communication with someone close to you i.e your relative, friends etc but body language or face expression are less important when you deal or communicate with strangers

 

[Dubious]

Equality is guaranteed by law, you jus't dont want to see it....straws and all that.

What sort of equality? For you but you are oppressing my religion and it is not equal on my part!

 

[Raja.Pakistani]

France is over doing things in the name of secularism and equality, I mean one can understand banning of full face cover(security issues ),
.

You are right. I personally think veil is cultural practice more than religious but i don't see any security problems in UK because of veil or because of some extra piece of clothes

as i said before there is not a single incident in Europe where Burqa was used for any crime or any sort of terrorism because they have certain strict laws and rules there to prevent crimes.

so what security issues was there in France before this ban?

 

[Raja.Pakistani]

Equality is guaranteed by law, you jus't dont want to see it....straws and all that.

equality : if a woman is free to flash her water melon in public then she should also be free to cover herself no matter if it make us nervous or uncomfortable

or you also having french sharia in France just like Taliban..the only difference may be one was forcing women to wear it while french Sharia was forcing them to take it off. It's all about denial of personal choices

 

[Agnostic_Indian]

You are right. I personally think veil is cultural practice more than religious but i don't see any security problems in UK because of veil or because of some extra piece of clothes

as i said before there is not a single incident in Europe where Burqa was used for any crime or any sort of terrorism because they have certain strict laws and rules there to prevent crimes.

so what security issues was there in France before this ban?

you can't say it never happened,anti social elements would have been using it for smuggling,prostitution, robbery etc


Burqa-clad Criminals Worry US Muslims | islam.ru


Two burqa-clad robbers hold up post office near Paris - FRANCE - FRANCE 24


http://themuslimissue.wordpress.com...n-unprovoked-attack-in-london/comment-page-1/



there are a few incidents which are reported, there could be many such small incidents which were not reported, there could be many more where police didn't even find out. any way commonsense says hiding face is not good for public safety, it will only give a loophole to anti social elements, so prevention is better than cure.