France OKs Sub Talks With Pakistan

[imiakhtar]

at least with the exocet you have a proven combat record. can the same be said for the harpoon or the chinese counterpart?

 

[Keysersoze]

Well the Exocet was not generally regarded as being as capable a system. The only reason it became a big seller is that it sank HMS Sheffield during the Falklands conflict. (The type 42 had a number of weaknesses which were corrected after the conflict)

And I would suggest that "combat proven" isn't really the best logic, as several items have been proved to work in combat. But are not that good. After all can you tell how many were launched by the Argentinian navy?

 

[niaz]

I think a troop carrier was also sunk by the Argentinian launched Exocet. It is has been a long time but I think Argies had 15 Exocets, Super Etandard carried one at a time, that would make about 3 sorties. There was a TV program about Argentnian Airforce where a pilot claimed that only 4 were launched, What they thought was the 'Ark Royal' ( Aircraft Carrier) turned out to be the troop carrier. However 2 ships sunk out of 4 is not bad.

Iraqi Mirage F-1 certainly caused havoc with it in the Iran/Iraq war. But that was against oil tankers. Iranians were forced to move to Sirri Island for the export of their crude instead of Kharg Island. Sirri was beyond the range of the F-1.

However you are right, Exocet is now 'Dated' technology and Harpoon -II is far more modern.

 

[Keysersoze]

It wasn't a troop carrier but a unprotected freight vessel so a victory against that is hardly big news (It did have a affect on the supplies for the ground forces though)

Oh and the warhead failed on the one that hit the Sheffield.......

But anyway............I guess we should get back to the thread !

 

[blain2]

Well the Exocet was not generally regarded as being as capable a system. The only reason it became a big seller is that it sank HMS Sheffield during the Falklands conflict. (The type 42 had a number of weaknesses which were corrected after the conflict)

And I would suggest that "combat proven" isn't really the best logic, as several items have been proved to work in combat. But are not that good. After all can you tell how many were launched by the Argentinian navy?

I agree with this...Exocet as was used in the gulf or Falklands war was not a very capable system in terms of its guidance to targets in littoral warfare. I think the newer versions of both Exocet and Harpoon have very good capabilities for use in littoral warfare.

 

[EagleEyes]

Some U214 submarine pictures from South Korea.

http://www.pakistaniforces.com/forums/showthread.php?p=38357#post38357

 

[TomCat111]

Some U214 submarine pictures from South Korea.

Unfortunately, cant see the propeller... :cry1:

 

[EagleEyes]

Enjoy!

 

[niaz]

Also unlike naval surface vessels, from outside most submarines look alike except for size.

 

[TomCat111]

Enjoy!

You da man... :pff:

 

[sandyboy911]

pLS INVEST THE TAX PAYERS MONEY IN EDUCATION AND DEVELOPMENT..NOT IN ARMS AND AMMUNITION..

 

[TomCat111]

pLS INVEST THE TAX PAYERS MONEY IN EDUCATION AND DEVELOPMENT..NOT IN ARMS AND AMMUNITION..

GOOD advice. Is it for Indians or Pakistanis, or both?

 

[EagleEyes]

GOOD advice. Is it for Indians or Pakistanis, or both?

Its a good advice for the both countries. Considering that we posses nuclear weapons, no country is stupid enough to attack our sovereign nation.

 

[Contrarian]

Actually webby, its not stupidity but calculated risk.
What Pakistan took in Kargil while we were a nuke capable nation. So depends how Pakistan is pushed, how close it gets to its nuke threshold. And since Pakistan's only enemy is India, lets talk specifically, i think that the cold-start was made for this reason only. Quick punitive measures, short and precise so that the Pak Govt doesnt feel so threatened as to go on nukes, and yet suffer.

 

[Quwa]

pLS INVEST THE TAX PAYERS MONEY IN EDUCATION AND DEVELOPMENT..NOT IN ARMS AND AMMUNITION..

Easy to make when you're the instigator.

For clarification: HDW showed the U-214 at IDEAS 2006 in Karachi, and U-214 was designed specifically for export. U-212 is a domestic version for the German Navy and although it is smaller than U-214, overall the former is superior. It appears PN is favoured towards the U-214 since they would integrate the Harpoon Block II.

According to the following article, IDAS may even be exported to Pakistan.

Posted 09/26/05 11:19
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German Navy Pursues Sub-Launched Missile
By MARTIN AGÃœERA, MUNICH


In the next legislative term, the German Navy hopes to revive an effort to develop a submarine-launched missile that may ignite a multinational development and marketing effort, said officials and industry executives.

The weapon would be intended to work against anti-submarine warfare helicopters, small surface and littoral targets, industry officials said.

Last year, the German military’s central procurement agency, the BWB in Koblenz, began to explore the idea through a working group dubbed IDAS, for Interactive Defense & Attack System for Submarines. The group is composed of representatives from the BWB and several companies which split the proceeds from the contract. The contract’s value has not been publicly disclosed, but the firms and their shares of it are:

• Diehl BGT Defense, Überlingen, 40 percent.

• ThyssenKrupp Marine Systems’ Howaldtswerke Deutsche Werft (HDW), Kiel, 40 percent.

• Norway’s Kongsberg Defense & Aerospace, Kongsberg, 20 percent.

Kongsberg will provide the weapon control system and HDW will integrate the missile into the submarine itself. HDW will build the container and perform other integration, said Klaus-Eberhard Möller, head of anti-radar and naval missiles with Diehl BGT Defense.

Funding is being provided through the country’s research and development resources, said one Ministry of Defense (MoD) official.

No existing missile fully met the IDAS requirements, Möller said. IDAS would replace Triton, a fiber-optic guided missile program based on EADS-LFK’s Polyphem missile and scrapped in 2002 primarily for budgetary reasons.

“Back then,” said the MoD official, “the procurement of a new missile from scratch was deemed too expensive.”

IDAS’ primary sensor likely will be based on the infrared image-processing seeker of the six-nation IRIS-T short-range air-to-air missile. Other components will be new, such as the fiber-optic data link and the one-stage solid-fuel rocket engine with a range of 15 kilometers, said the MoD official.

The IDAS working group will also make use of the complete IRIS-T hardware and software guidance package. Each will trail a lightweight fiber-optic cable to send images from the missile’s infrared seeker back to a controller aboard the sub.

“By this, we have eliminated a share of the development costs already, which is very significant for such a program,” said Möller.

IRIS-T Model

The IDAS team said it can use management methods of a multinational program like IRIS-T to reduce redundancies, said Möller.

“With IDAS, we strive to develop a new missile for submarines that applies to the mission scenarios of the future,” said Joachim Reuter, IDAS project manager for HDW. “It is a suitable weapon for effects-based operations.”

HDW, a platform maker, has never built a munition, said Reuter.

“But the torpedo as the only main armament system of the submarine limited the ships somewhat for future missions,” said Reuter. “Now, the main focus is not any more on destroying ships totally.”

Instead, a weapon must be able to deliver a variety of punches, depending on the situation.

Preparations for tests are under way. By the end of next year, the IDAS team could demonstrate a dummy driven by a hot-water propulsor out of the submerged submarine’s torpedo tube to the point where fiber-optic guidance would begin.

The MoD official said a heavyweight torpedo tube would hold a launch container with several missiles, which will be launched separately.

The MoD official said several navies had already expressed an interest. “It would be ideal to find suitable partners for this development effort, which could begin in 2007,” said the MoD official. “Those who deal with missiles also know how expensive development work can be … That’s why putting it on a multinational level can help.”

But tight German MoD budgets are complicating the effort.

Möller expects that a number of countries — basically, all the ones that operate HDW submarines — could become customers for IDAS: Greece, Israel, Norway, Pakistan, Turkey and others.

The Diehl BGT Defense executive said the working group is already in talks with Norway. •


E-mail: maguera@defensenews.com.

http://dfn.dnmediagroup.com/story.p...102541&C=europe (link is out of date now)