Fourth Milgem Corvette launched for Pakistan Navy

[arslank03]

So is the PN looking to expand its capabilities further by inducting more superior platforms?

I'd say one (I-Class vs. J-Class) isn't necessarily better than the other. To me, they're like parallel design streams managed by two different contractors (ASFAT A.S for J-Class and STM for I-Class).

ASFAT A.S was probably chosen because they (1) were willing to carry out redesign work on the MILGEM to add VLS and (2) develop a new frigate and help build up NRDI's capacity to manage big naval projects.

ASFAT A.S. is now building on the J-Class to offer larger designs, like AS3600 (tbh, I think it's a sign the PN will work on a larger frigate via a J-Class Batch II or Batch III).

i guess in theory, the PN has not actually committed to JCF numbers yet, atleast openly, i could see batch buys, i.e batch 1 being the config we think it will be, batch 2, larger etc etc until they decide that they've had enough. Im not sure the contract has been issued yet, the wording DT used implied it would be publically announced, but nothing, pure radio silence. Wouldn't be surprised if its delayed and significantly different to what we think at the moment, though thats not an issue as final babur will be delivered 2025. Maybe it will end up evolving into something like AS3600.

 

[Tipu7]

Im not sure where your analyses has come from but:

"increased ASW capabilities"
Via the deletion of the towed array?

"increased AAW capabilities" have discussed this to death, wont do it again, feel free to scroll through the thread.

the ASuW suite is the only positive of the platform here, but even that is negligible, because what metric is that based off of lol. Its an abstract and useless statement.


The 054a is a platform that should have been inducted in place of F22P's. Yes, it brings an improvement to the PN's capabilities, but so would the PN inducting F-7s for fleet air defence.

The truth is the 054a is not sufficient for our threat environment and will likely be a sitting duck, albeit one that will go down with a little more of a fight than the other sitting ducks. Though, ironically if the f22p mlu recieves albatross and also a new asuw suite it will likely be a more capable platform in most ways than the 54a.

Hit your pocket and re-read your argument again.
With the economic condition and restriction on availability of technology, you won't be getting any other vessel with this cost and in such short interval of time.
Before 054, you were running after US with a bowl for few OHPs. At that point you wanted something like Turkey's G-class. And instead received what? Approval to get some spares for Alamgir from Turkey.

If F-22Ps will become so superior than 054 after receiving MLU, then I guess PN should have acquired 4X Type-53H3 and given them MLU instead of "wasting" precious time and money on 054APs.

"increased AAW capabilities" have discussed this to death, wont do it again, feel free to scroll through the thread.

Won't be wasting my time.

"HHQ-16A/LY-60N is a major improvement over whatever current systems we currently have"

The 054a is a platform that should have been inducted in place of F22P's. Yes, it brings an improvement to the PN's capabilities, but so would the PN inducting F-7s for fleet air defence.

That's absurd comparison I must say.

 

[arslank03]

Hit your pocket and re-read your argument again.
With the economic condition and restriction on availability of technology, you won't be getting any other vessel with this cost and in such short interval of time.
Before 054, you were running after US with a bowl for few OHPs. At that point you wanted something like Turkey's G-class. And instead received what? Approval to get some spares for Alamgir from Turkey.

If F-22Ps will become so superior than 054 after receiving MLU, then I guess PN should have acquired 4X Type-53H3 and given them MLU instead of "wasting" precious time and money on 054APs.

Won't be wasting my time.

"HHQ-16A/LY-60N is a major improvement over whatever current systems we currently have"


That's absurd comparison I must say.

"With the economic condition and restriction on availability of technology, you won't be getting any other vessel with this cost and in such short interval of time."

Not sure what everyones obsession with timescale is. Are we war-preparing or something if theres no rush then i don't see why fast delivery is a major selling point. We didnt NEED them to be here ASAP. We have no URGENT PRESSING need.

Im not sure how the OHP and G class argument is relevant anyway. Those hulls were free and the PN paid purely for modernization. A pretty good trade-off if you ask me, Alamgir is always actively forwarding Pakistani diplomacy via counter-piracy missions off the coast of Africa.

"If F-22Ps will become so superior than 054 after receiving MLU, then I guess PN should have acquired 4X Type-53H3 and given them MLU instead of "wasting" precious time and money on 054APs."

Sure, if that's your takeaway from this, then yes, on qualitative grounds, there are literally more capable 053h3 modifications out there, the RTN's Narusean class took a 053H3 hull, improved the poor fire suppression systems, solved the quality issues and SIGNIFICANTLY upgraded its sensors and weapons suite.

Let me know in what ways the 054A is comparible? the ESSM is a FAR more capable missile than the HQ-16, for the 1980's buk was great, for defending against swarm attacks from advanced high speed anti ship missiles, not great. You will be sending sailors to watery graves.

"Won't be wasting my time."

Glad as the deficiencies of the HQ-16 are something i was the first person to raise on here and have been discussed to death, i wont be repeating it.

"HHQ-16A/LY-60N is a major improvement over whatever current systems we
currently have"

Once again, anything is an improvement over nothing. 0+1= 1, doesnt mean its a good improvement. For the threat environment it was an awfully short sighted decision to make, IF PAID FOR IN FULL- WHICH IT WASNT.

This is the key point, the reasons the 054A were purchased was to retire Tariqs at a VERY LOW COST. ONE COMPARIBLE TO THE YARMOOK BATCH 2.

However, does that mean these ships are fit for the kind of threat they will face? No. It doesnt, hence why China is modifying some key bottlenecks i.e the illuminators and then also modernising them via the 054B.

Harping on about it being an improvement is simply not good enough. It is a deficiency and should be highlighted. Its very simple, if an IN ship was to empty its entire magazine of BrahMos against a Tughril, put it how it is, there would be no chance for a total kinetic interception of them all.

 

[CivilianSupremacy]

Im not sure where your analyses has come from but:

"increased ASW capabilities"
Via the deletion of the towed array?

"increased AAW capabilities" have discussed this to death, wont do it again, feel free to scroll through the thread.

the ASuW suite is the only positive of the platform here, but even that is negligible, because what metric is that based off of lol. Its an abstract and useless statement.


The 054a is a platform that should have been inducted in place of F22P's. Yes, it brings an improvement to the PN's capabilities, but so would the PN inducting F-7s for fleet air defence.

The truth is the 054a is not sufficient for our threat environment and will likely be a sitting duck, albeit one that will go down with a little more of a fight than the other sitting ducks. Though, ironically if the f22p mlu recieves albatross and also a new asuw suite it will likely be a more capable platform in most ways than the 54a.


the cost is the only benefit, because it was heavily subsidised by the chinese govt, still doesnt mean it is as great as its being hyped to be

Bro, Let me explain you why Type 54A/P a value-able addition to Pakistan Navy. There is a reason why Pakistan Navy call these ships as Force Multipliers

I am not going to prove that this ship is the best ship in the world. Obviously its not given the cost and timelines these are procured. However, it was much needed platforms for PN and here's why:

If you notice indian navy, its giant comparatively to PN. Also only their destroyers and newest frigates are capable, rest of large number of ships are not anywhere close to modern standards. But still they are keeping a massive fleet and that massive fleet gives huge advantages in terms of quantity and to be deployed along with modern platforms. That's why PN needs quantity as well. It cannot depend on 3 to 4 modern platforms coming over the period of decades. PN needs large number of platforms with some being very modern. Its like PAF has JF-17s but still it went for few J-10Cs.

Naval Combat Scenario:
Secondly, the way you are putting Type54A/P combat scenario is never going to happen. Pakistan is not an island or a penisula that a lone ship could come under attack from all sides. Pakistan has a small straight coast and is very much defendable. Navy's doctrine is such that their submarines will be used for offensive operations and surface combatants will mostly be in defensive posture. A single type 54A/P will never go against indian fleet. It will be in fleet formation and ALL ships will collectively contribute in fleet defense.

Scenario example: Lets say 8 ships are in the formation. 4 Type 54A/Ps, 2 F-22Ps and 2 Baburs. Then all of these ships will use their missiles to counter incoming missiles. Even F-22Ps will fire their very old legacy FM-90 missiles to contribute. In such scenario if you remove 4 Type-54A/Ps then you can imagine yourself that without 32 cell VLS x 4 ships how much of a chance the fleet will have against incoming barrage.

Also you must consider Pakistan's geopolitical & geostrategic positions. India is a common enemy between China and Pakistan. China has done billions of investment in Pakistan and especially Gwadar. The prospect of sanctions from the west (under indian pressure or anything else) or limitation on defense products will always be there. However, possibility of upgrades of these Type-54 A/Ps in future is obvious. With newer missile HHQ-16FE these ships will play a unique role in PN.

Lastly. SARH is not that bad or gone obsolete. Especially when ships are in formation this is still very much weapon of choice. Arliegh Burke destroyers still use vast variety of SARH missiles. Only recently some of the latest versions are coming with dual mode. Those too are guideded by illuminators but only at terminal phase they use infrared homing or switch to ARH. Ship's large radars and power electronic equipment is far less vulernable to be jammed then onboard missile's radar through EW. These missiles will continue to serve for atleast a decade more. The cost per missile is also a major factor. In scenarios when only 1 or 2 incoming missiles are to be intercepted then why you have to fire an expensive missile.

 

[arslank03]

Bro, Let me explain you why Type 54A/P a value-able addition to Pakistan Navy. There is a reason why Pakistan Navy call these ships as Force Multipliers

I am not going to prove that this ship is the best ship in the world. Obviously its not given the cost and timelines these are procured. However, it was much needed platforms for PN and here's why:

If you notice indian navy, its giant comparatively to PN. Also only their destroyers and newest frigates are capable, rest of large number of ships are not anywhere close to modern standards. But still they are keeping a massive fleet and that massive fleet gives huge advantages in terms of quantity and to be deployed along with modern platforms. That's why PN needs quantity as well. It cannot depend on 3 to 4 modern platforms coming over the period of decades. PN needs large number of platforms with some being very modern. Its like PAF has JF-17s but still it went for few J-10Cs.

Naval Combat Scenario:
Secondly, the way you are putting Type54A/P combat scenario is never going to happen. Pakistan is not an island or a penisula that a lone ship could come under attack from all sides. Pakistan has a small straight coast and is very much defendable. Navy's doctrine is such that their submarines will be used for offensive operations and surface combatants will mostly be in defensive posture. A single type 54A/P will never go against indian fleet. It will be in fleet formation and ALL ships will collectively contribute in fleet defense.

Scenario example: Lets say 8 ships are in the formation. 4 Type 54A/Ps, 2 F-22Ps and 2 Baburs. Then all of these ships will use their missiles to counter incoming missiles. Even F-22Ps will fire their very old legacy FM-90 missiles to contribute. In such scenario if you remove 4 Type-54A/Ps then you can imagine yourself that without 32 cell VLS x 4 ships how much of a chance the fleet will have against incoming barrage.

Also you must consider Pakistan's geopolitical & geostrategic positions. India is a common enemy between China and Pakistan. China has done billions of investment in Pakistan and especially Gwadar. The prospect of sanctions from the west (under indian pressure or anything else) or limitation on defense products will always be there. However, possibility of upgrades of these Type-54 A/Ps in future is obvious. With newer missile HHQ-16FE these ships will play a unique role in PN.

Lastly. SARH is not that bad or gone obsolete. Especially when ships are in formation this is still very much weapon of choice. Arliegh Burke destroyers still use vast variety of SARH missiles. Only recently some of the latest versions are coming with dual mode. Those too are guideded by illuminators but only at terminal phase they use infrared homing or switch to ARH. Ship's large radars and power electronic equipment is far less vulernable to be jammed then onboard missile's radar through EW. These missiles will continue to serve for atleast a decade more. The cost per missile is also a major factor. In scenarios when only 1 or 2 incoming missiles are to be intercepted then why you have to fire an expensive missile.

ill comment on the rest later but this has all stemmed from my key point of 054as not being suitedd for modern threats. Talking about upgrades is 20 years down the line, theyre not suited for the threat of today let alone the next few decades

 

[CivilianSupremacy]

ill comment on the rest later but this has all stemmed from my key point of 054as not being suitedd for modern threats. Talking about upgrades is 20 years down the line, theyre not suited for the threat of today let alone the next few decades

Sure bro, whenever you reply please consider realistic scenario that Type-54A/Ps in fleet formation. Tughril versus several ships Or 1 vs 1 is not how the war will pan out. It will ALWAYS be fleet vs fleet.

Also let's say we will have 4 baburs by 2025/26 and first Jinnah by 2035. Could PN really has a chance with such a small fleet of 5 modern combatants ? PN's force multiplier label for Type-54s exactly mean that a single ship may not have a chance against enemy fleet but when its part of fleet formation then it actually acts as multiplier effect. Remember we need good numbers with decent capability (supersonic missiles, VLS, enhanced radar coverage capabilities) in these cost and timelines, My arguement does not mean at all that we should not have gone for Baburs. or that Baburs are a wrong choice. But my argument is that we simply could not depend on just 4 corvettes. Jinnah is going to take a long time. and how long each ship will take is anybody's guess.

the ESSM is a FAR more capable missile than the HQ-16,

The evolved Sea Sparrow missile is also SARH. The Thai navy info graphic does not say block-2. The original versions which are still being used in US navy are SARH. They will keep using them until these missiles have a shelf life remaining.

 

[Tipu7]

"With the economic condition and restriction on availability of technology, you won't be getting any other vessel with this cost and in such short interval of time."

Not sure what everyones obsession with timescale is. Are we war-preparing or something if theres no rush then i don't see why fast delivery is a major selling point. We didnt NEED them to be here ASAP. We have no URGENT PRESSING need.

We have been pushing to develop Navy with in a given time scale ever since work has actively commenced on CPEC. We failed to timely replace Amazons creating the pressure to undertake necessary modernization for minimizing the gap against Indian Navy.

Im not sure how the OHP and G class argument is relevant anyway. Those hulls were free and the PN paid purely for modernization. A pretty good trade-off if you ask me, Alamgir is always actively forwarding Pakistani diplomacy via counter-piracy missions off the coast of Africa.

OHPs were once needed to meet the requirements I mentioned earlier. We only received one handicapped ship at the end. Remember Kerry Lugar Bill?

Sure, if that's your takeaway from this, then yes, on qualitative grounds, there are literally more capable 053h3 modifications out there, the RTN's Narusean class took a 053H3 hull, improved the poor fire suppression systems, solved the quality issues and SIGNIFICANTLY upgraded its sensors and weapons suite.

Let me know in what ways the 054A is comparible? the ESSM is a FAR more capable missile than the HQ-16, for the 1980's buk was great, for defending against swarm attacks from advanced high speed anti ship missiles, not great. You will be sending sailors to watery graves.

Good Luck getting ESSM and other related equipment from United States.

This is the key point, the reasons the 054A were purchased was to retire Tariqs at a VERY LOW COST. ONE COMPARIBLE TO THE YARMOOK BATCH 2.

054AP is comparable to Yarmook-II? You are passing this judgement based on aesthetics. And its defective approach. Simple question is, will PN employ 054AP and Yarmook-II in same way? I believe, that's not the case. Yarmook-II being smaller ship has its own employment profile which is very different than that of 054APs.

Once again, anything is an improvement over nothing. 0+1= 1, doesnt mean its a good improvement. For the threat environment it was an awfully short sighted decision to make, IF PAID FOR IN FULL- WHICH IT WASNT.

"LY-80N is far superior than any system currently in PN disposal"
The ship and its VLS have good potential for upgrades and those will be made with passage of time and maturity of system.

Harping on about it being an improvement is simply not good enough. It is a deficiency and should be highlighted. Its very simple, if an IN ship was to empty its entire magazine of BrahMos against a Tughril, put it how it is, there would be no chance for a total kinetic interception of them all.

My dear, there is no ship or even ship formation which can survive a silo of 16-24 Brahmos missiles. We are not packing huge amount of VLS for intercepting Brahmos saturated strike.
The times when PN used to think (and people on internet still does) this way is gone.
Idea is to deny such situation in first place. And 054AP has its role to play.

 

[CivilianSupremacy]

Idea is to deny such situation in first place. And 054AP has its role to play.

Exactly. The comparisons can't be drawn by placing a ship in a middle of ocean in front of enemy fleet. when that's not the role of it at first place and that's not the strategy to counter the adversary.

The importance of a platform's role can only be understood if one understands country's naval doctrine. It will be even better if we also give value to geostrategic, geo-political and economic positions. Assessment that a certain platform isn't good for us without considering a broader view / zoomed-out scenario is a faultily assessment. True assessment should value all these factors.