Four of the most ancient human civilisations

[Indus Pakistan]

Counting number of sites is ridicalous proposition. To begin with it's like trying counting bricks or brick fragments. I have two bricks, oh no I have 80 brick fragments etc etc etc.

The real issue is simple. Indus River is central to Pakistan like Nile is central to Egypt. India on the other hand is entirely seperate geography. Over 600 million Indians live in the wet Ganga Basin. That is about half of India lives around the Holy Ganga. Some of the largest cities in India and the capital are either on or adjacent to Ganga. New Delhi, Agra, the Hindu holy city of Varanasi, Kolkatta etc. Ganga is the crucible of India - plain and simple. It's like the Yellow River Basin to China.

• The Ganga River Basin is home to more than 600 million Indians.

• As India's holiest river, the Ganga has a cultural and spiritual significance that far transcends the boundaries of its basin.

• The Ganga is India's most important and iconic river.

http://www.worldbank.org/en/news/feature/2015/03/23/india-the-national-ganga-river-basin-project

Then there is the Dravidia India. The V shaped peninsula that points south. This is dominated by Dravidian speaking people and all the region lies south of the equator all of it falling within the tropical zone. This region is almost thousand miles south of the Indus Region making it well outside it's influence. Over 200-300 million Indians live in this region.

Placing it all on context is the map below - which is zeroed on India. The approximate Ganga Basin and Dravidia are marked. These regions are where 90% of Indians live. As can be seen the Indus River is to the extreme north west corner. The Thar Desert acting like huge fracture zone between present day Pakistan and India. Ganga and Dravidia fall well east and or south of this "border zone". Despite these facts ~ all these India from far flung regions dream of Indus River. Bizzare.

And by way of comparison take a look at a map below that is zeroed on Pakistan. One look at it and you can see Pakistan is rocking to the tune of the Indus River. Entire country is wrapped around the dry semi-arid Indus Basin. Despite these facts if Indians insist on licking our underneath then maybe we ought to be enamoured. This smacks like of those African's dreaming of Egypt when most come from Sub Saharan Africa. They call that trend "Afrocentrism" and I think we can call this yearning by Ganga people for Indus Valley [Pakistan] as "Gangacentrism".

@Talwar e Pakistan @django @Chinese-Dragon etc

 

[war&peace]

@Kaptaan @AUSTERLITZ , should we not be looking at how South Asians can be working together in the immediate future?? For example, Kashmir or a common manned space program?? What is the point of dwelling entirely in the glories of the past??

I agree with you mate but first we will need to resolve the outstanding issues and then we can cooperate and dedicate more resources to the development of our people who remain to be poor and much less developed than their potential.

 

[Awan68]

What are the parallels that you can point to your ancestral heritage?? Westerners have no idea why these IVC people abandoned their homes and where they settled??

They went away to call Arab invaders due to the stench from their nieghbours, the gangadeshi's.

 

[Talwar e Pakistan]

What are the parallels that you can point to your ancestral heritage?? Westerners have no idea why these IVC people abandoned their homes and where they settled??

The most desperate Indian theory that the people of IVC randomly migrated 1000 miles into India (which was already populated) and disappeared from the Indus.

If you look at the "collapse" of various civilizations such of that as Egypt and Greece, the people did not migrate and disappear.

At-most, there was a mass shift from urban to rural as cities were abandoned for whatever reason.

The four phases of the "localization era" of the Indus Valley Civilization highlights the fact that fragments of IVC continued to linger on around 400 years after the "collapse of IVC" before forming into cultures and Kingdoms such as Gandhara which existed as early as 1500 BCE.

Four phases of the Localization Era of IVC:
Punjab Phase (Cemetery H)
Jhukar Phase (Sindh)
Rangpur Phase (Western Gujarat)
Pirak Phase (Balochistan)

@Kaptaan @django

 

[AUSTERLITZ]

Then what is bharatvarsha? I doubt those are not IVC sites since those are located very far from Indus Valley / Basin.


I don't deny their existence but I contend their candidature as IVC sites.


So you're saying that no other civilisation thrived in India and its the IVC only. Wow that's a deep penetration of the IVC and I don't know if it was possible. But you guys should be asking a question Why Ganges, which is the holiest river for the Hindus and who claim hinduism to be thousands of years old religion, never supported any civilisation, so infertile and barren?

What are you talking about?They have the same indus seals found in them,same stepwell and similar technology in city planning.And many such sites are being found in India.What is now established is that the indus civilization actually was much larger in extent,and extended eastwards to a far greater degree than previously thought.As more and more sites are being excavated this is being established.Harappa and mahenjo daro are oldest major sites,most extensively excavated and thus get the most publicity.This doesn't mean they are the civilization in entirety.What i'm saying is simple - pakistan can ofcourse claim IVC as part of their ancient heritage(though due to ideological reasons they are not interested in claiming any part of their subsequent 'hindu' history such as ancient takshashila),what you can't do is say its is only a pakistani heritage given that huge number of sites have been found in India.You can call it a shared heritage.

We have not excavated the ganges area in depth due to existing population centres dotting the region and no certain conclusions can be made.In any case the ganga forms the heartland of the vedic civilization that followed the IVC,so how was it infertile.The great ancient indian kingdoms of the vedic area centred on the ganga and its tributaries as well as the indus tributaries in punjab region.The second urbanization in indian history is centred on ganges.If you want to bring religion into this you will find the IVC has many features similar to hinduism - pashupathinath seals depicting proto-shiva,fire worship,mother goddess,worship of animals.In terms of religious identity IVC is far closer to modern day India than pakistan.But lets keep religion out of this.

@Kaptaan @AUSTERLITZ , should we not be looking at how South Asians can be working together in the immediate future?? For example, Kashmir or a common manned space program?? What is the point of dwelling entirely in the glories of the past??

I did not start this thread,nor did i start the chest thumping.See first page Kaptaan's rambling rants about how 'superior ' he believes himself to be to the 'gangadeshis' - a term he has coined and his obsession with ganga .I merely answered.It has been apparent from his posts for some time that kaptaan has been sliding into mental retardedness and delusional fantasies due to his self bred hatred,bigotry - first with his obsession with muslims of lucknow rising up and starting some sort of rebellion aided by pakistan and now his illogical hatred of the ganga- a geographical feature.He needs help.

 

[Indus Pakistan]

The most desperate Indian theory that the people of IVC randomly migrated 1000 miles into India (which was already populated) and disappeared from the Indus.

Yes, the Indians are so desperate to move Indus Valley civilization from Pakistan into India that they have whole industry out there churning out tales to "tilt IVC into Ganga India".

If you look at the "collapse" of various civilizations such of that as Egypt and Greece, the people did not migrate and disappear.

Indeed. You don't get Egypt shutting shop and moving to Somalia. Or Greece closing doors and moving en masse to Russia. All this self serving story about "IVC moving to India" is so these aboriginals can get something to chew on.

And they never explain that if indeed IVC did move en masse to Ganga why did they not flourish there and we don't get new Mohenjo Daro's in India? The rubbish about the Indus Basin drying up is cited as a reason. Well Ganga was damp so the IVC should have flourished there but that is not the case.

It's all part of elaborate "Gangacentrism". A yearning by these primitive aboriginals from Ganga like Africans have for Egypt.

 

[AUSTERLITZ]

Counting number of sites is ridicalous proposition. To begin with it's like trying counting bricks or brick fragments. I have two bricks, oh no I have 80 brick fragments etc etc etc.

The real issue is simple. Indus River is central to Pakistan like Nile is central to Egypt. India on the other hand is entirely seperate geography. Over 600 million Indians live in the wet Ganga Basin. That is about half of India lives around the Holy Ganga. Some of the largest cities in India and the capital are either on or adjacent to Ganga. New Delhi, Agra, the Hindu holy city of Varanasi, Kolkatta etc. Ganga is the crucible of India - plain and simple. It's like the Yellow River Basin to China.

• The Ganga River Basin is home to more than 600 million Indians.

• As India's holiest river, the Ganga has a cultural and spiritual significance that far transcends the boundaries of its basin.

• The Ganga is India's most important and iconic river.

http://www.worldbank.org/en/news/feature/2015/03/23/india-the-national-ganga-river-basin-project

Then there is the Dravidia India. The V shaped peninsula that points south. This is dominated by Dravidian speaking people and all the region lies south of the equator all of it falling within the tropical zone. This region is almost thousand miles south of the Indus Region making it well outside it's influence. Over 200-300 million Indians live in this region.

Placing it all on context is the map below - which is zeroed on India. The approximate Ganga Basin and Dravidia are marked. These regions are where 90% of Indians live. As can be seen the Indus River is to the extreme north west corner. The Thar Desert acting like huge fracture zone between present day Pakistan and India. Ganga and Dravidia fall well east and or south of this "border zone". Despite these facts ~ all these India from far flung regions dream of Indus River. Bizzare.

And by way of comparison take a look at a map below that is zeroed on Pakistan. One look at it and you can see Pakistan is rocking to the tune of the Indus River. Entire country is wrapped around the dry semi-arid Indus Basin. Despite these facts if Indians insist on licking our underneath then maybe we ought to be enamoured. This smacks like of those African's dreaming of Egypt when most come from Sub Saharan Africa. They call that trend "Afrocentrism" and I think we can call this yearning by Ganga people for Indus Valley [Pakistan] as "Gangacentrism".

@Talwar e Pakistan @django @Chinese-Dragon etc

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rigvedic_rivers

We have nothing to do with the Indus?Lol.Do you even know your history?Read the rig veda?
Saptasindhu - Indus and its seven tributaries is the cradle of vedic civilization and the beginning of hinduism.
Saptasindhu is one of the most prominent themes of the early hindu texts.
The difference is we have inherited and carry on the legacy and cultural heritage of our ancestors and civilization,you abandoned your own cultural heritage to adopt that of the arab.You only want to appropiate the IVC because its convinient - its pre-vedic and thus not directly related to your great ideological civilizational 'hindu' enemy even though the religious practices of IVC are far closer to hinduism than islam.You chose to abandon your own history ,we didn't.Your history is claiming the IVC and then restart with qasim.

 

[Indus Pakistan]

Indus and its seven tributaries is the cradle of vedic civilization and the beginning of hinduism.

I know. Now can you at least respect us for having given you a religion? No idea why you people worship the filthy Ganga. You need to look west and worship our land. Our Indus. We gave you everything. Don't ever forget that.

 

[AUSTERLITZ]

I know. Now can you at least respect us for having given you a religion? No idea why you people worship the filthy Ganga. You need to look west and worship our land. Our Indus. We gave you everything. Don't ever forget that.

What a joker,the people gradually migrated eastwards and 2nd great urbanization took place on the ganga.The indus and Ganga are both integral to our history,heritage and legacy.The vedic traces can be found in syria and central asia - as well where pillars are found with offerings to agni,mitra,varuna and other vedic gods.You don't even understand the concept of migration,settlement,mixing of peoples.There is no you and us ,there was one people.(i know it hurts).
A part of that people held on to their heritage and legacy ,the other part surrendered in the face of the onslaught from the west and abandoned their own heritage and history.They adopted the legacy and culture of their conqueror -they adopted the civilization of the arab and the turk.To each his own.

 

[Indus Pakistan]

(i know it hurts).

The only thing that I can see hurting is you - your the one trying to sniff my backside. On the contrary I don't want to have anything to do with Ganga. Out of curiosity where abouts Ganga are you from? Or are you from Dravidia?

And note your trying to desperately hypenate Ganga with Indus. I on the other hand would not even piss in the Ganga let alone associate with it. Ganga and Dravidia are strictly "verboten". When you have gold you don't look at garbage. When you have garbage then you look over the fence at the shining gold.

Ps. I rarely bother looking at Indipedia, sorry Wikipedia links that relate to South Asian history. You and your mates have pressure pumped it with your own biased tales. Thus "Indpedia".

 

[Talwar e Pakistan]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rigvedic_rivers

We have nothing to do with the Indus?Lol.Do you even know your history?Read the rig veda?
Saptasindhu - Indus and its seven tributaries is the cradle of vedic civilization and the beginning of hinduism.
Saptasindhu is one of the most prominent themes of the early hindu texts.
The difference is we have inherited and carry on the legacy and cultural heritage of our ancestors and civilization,you abandoned your own cultural heritage to adopt that of the arab.You only want to appropiate the IVC because its convinient - its pre-vedic and thus not directly related to your great ideological civilizational 'hindu' enemy even though the religious practices of IVC are far closer to hinduism than islam.You chose to abandon your own history ,we didn't.Your history is claiming the IVC and then restart with qasim.

This has little to do with Hinduism. The fact that you think that Hinduism in an organized form was dominant in ancient Pakistan highlights how narrow-minded you are.

Our history does not start with IVC and "restarts" with Qasim as you have immaturely stated.

Our history starts with the Soanians and the Riwatians, moves on to Mehrghar and the Indus Valley civilization, continues into the Kamboja, Gandhara, Kasmira, Sindhu, Madra, Paurvas, Bahlika Kingdoms.

Sagala, Multan, Taxila, Patala, Krokola, Banbhore, Minnagara, etc... city states.

The Indo-Greek and Indo-Persian Kingdoms and fierce tribes of the Sakas, Kushanas, Hunas, Hephthalites.

The various dynasties of the Rai, Ror, Soomra, Talpur, Samma, Raees, Katoor, Tarkhan, Arghun, Kalhora, and etc...

95% of these states were not even Hindu.

I could go on and on as our history is distinct and vast. But I should not waste anymore time on a Hindu-centric ignorant fool.

 

[navtrek]

Gangadeshis eat your hearts out.Kudos Kaptaan

lol Instead of telling that we are all brothers and sisters here also we are busy differentiating lol

 

[Talwar e Pakistan]

lol Instead of telling that we are all brothers and sisters here also we are busy differentiating lol

Brothers and Sisters as in what terms?

 

[American Pakistani]

How can you consider yourself the heir of a civilization that existed in another country? Don't you think you should ask Pakistan for their permission before you steal their history?

Even their name India is a corrupted word of my home province of Sind. Please also note that river Indus is known as Darya e Sindh in all local languages of South Asia.

 

[Chinese-Dragon]

Even their name India is a corrupted word of my home province of Sind. Please also note that river Indus is known as Darya e Sindh in all local languages of South Asia.

Both their country (India) and their religion (Hindu) are named after your Indus river.

If they hate Pakistan so much, maybe they should disown the civilization and culture they acquired from the IVC.