Four MMRCA contenders fail Leh trials

[manish123]

Ok I understand your point:

But if we go with EJ 200 it means commonality of engines with the Typhoon as it is powered by the EJ 200. Also Typhoon is the only other contender which is pitching the TVC in their engine.

EJ - 200 will be a big tender of-course but will only be supplied until Kaveri is up and ready - it has already achieved 90% performance levels

Another Russian jet = 85-90% dependency on single supplier for our AF - Case of Ghorkshov rings a bell? Diversifying is very important.

What parts of Typhoon are prone to American sanctions?

Components in radar, ews, jammer, certain avionics, but which engine does rafale use?

 

[Mahakaya]

Components in radar, ews, jammer, certain avionics, but which engine does rafale use?

Its Snecma - M88 2 > French Engine.

Yes thats an eye opener that the Typhoon has significant amount of American Tech and needs US approval for sale - Like in the case of Saudis.

Damn these Americans are freaking everywhere!

 

[manish123]

Its Snecma - M88 2 > French Engine.

Yes thats an eye opener that the Typhoon has significant amount of American Tech and needs US approval for sale - Like in the case of Saudis.

Damn these Americans are freaking everywhere!

Great news , with snecma in there we are left with two choices rafale and mig 35, but su-30MKI will be 100% indian plane , all components right from nuts and bolts we make ourselves, we can even export ourselves , only thing is 3 billion dollars assembly line. So dont worry Su will be as much indian as tejas infact much much more so, so Mig 35 is equally good. BTW this agrement with russia was signed many years ago and they have to supply all TOT by 2011, hence india in any case will buy 40 su-30I before that to keep russians happy and their MIL IND complex growing.

 

[rubyjackass]

My take is that leaving Rafale and Gripen ( which hasn't been tested yet), all other failed Leh test. Now Rafale possibility comes from very 1999 kargill war Mirage performance for which MMRCA deal was floated. But MoD stopped the deal of acquiring 126 mirage and asked IAF to let it be competition between various vendors.

Makes sense.

 

[pop_alsa]

BTW, forget the aircrafts that failed, I would like to know which one did not.

LCA passed the Leh test long back.

 

[Justin Joseph]

what types!!! any guesses???
my guess its not the F-16IN

PAF F-16's routinely fly / land from Gilget / Skardu air-strips.

And one must remember our LCA Tejas has cleared that Leh Test.

And which engine powers it.

Its high altitude + extremely low temp. test.

 

[Justin Joseph]

I only hope that MIG 35 is not in that list, I would really love this aircraft in our Airforce, look at this Beast...

mig 29 have already operated there so it can't be mig 35

 

[tidu]

Few Leh airfied pics

awesome pics yaar thnx soo much ,keep jup yhe gud wrk

 

[1nd1a]

LiveFist - The Best of Indian Defence: Four MMRCA Contenders Fail Leh Trials!

It's the latest tidbit on India's $12-billion Medium Multirole Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) competition that's doing the rounds (and it was first reported by The Hindu on Tuesday). Four of the contenders that underwent cold-weather evaluation trials at Leh didn't meet performance requirements. OK, major understatement. Four of the contenders bit dust in Leh. Read that again: four aircraft. That's huge. It's still unclear which part of the Leh test the four aircraft types failed at, though it is quite clear that it was either the switch off/on after landing, or the take-off with meaningful combat load at that altitude. The only thing that appears true is that four aircraft failed the trial -- it is totally anyone's guess which these are. Any want to hazard a try?

Hello everyone,

I am not sure why are we still going along this thread. I too was worried when got to know this but this is not a big issue. After IA informed the bidders almost all of them have made the changes. So I my opinion all of them are good. Field trials are done to check the aircraft behavior and if there needs some modification manufacturer make those changes.

We are also talking about Tejas cleared all parameters in LEH. We are forgetting that Tejas was built with those specification however all these aircraft may not be designed to take those punishments. So, its very obvious that they would need some tweaks.

 

[black flame]

I hope F-18 is in the list since F-16's are a no go for us.

well there is only one aircraft is pending for cold trials that is jas 39 gripen remaining all the four aircraft have done the trials so hell it is a tough one and dont know how jas 39 gonna hold up ...........

 

[sancho]

Regarding the topic:

http://www.defence.pk/forums/756273-post1500.html

thats brings in my mind as Rafale & EF, though Rafale has not got the loading capability of a EF

will be interesting to know which contenders failed, rumors are saying that both American birds have failed at Leh Airfield

This is not correct, actually the Rafale offers the highest load capability of all MMRCA contenders!

Rafale - 9,5t on 14 stations (2 of them for pods) and 5 of them able to carry fuel tanks.

F18SH - 8t on 11 stations, 5 of them wet.

F16IN - 7 to 8t on 11 stations (2 of them for pods), 3 of them wet.

EF - 7,5t on 13 stations, 3 of them wet.

Mig 35: 6 - 7t on 9 stations, 3 of them wet.

Gripen NG - 6t on AFAIK 10 stations (2 of them for pods), 3 of them wet.

Components in radar, ews, jammer, certain avionics, but which engine does rafale use?

First of all, all major techs in the EF are developed by the consortium coutries in Europe! The radar, engine, avionics..., the most ammount of US parts should be the weapons, because at the moment its main A2A weapon is AMRAAM and A2G Paveway bombs.
Also if haveing some components from the US is a reason to be out of the competition, why do we even consider complete US fighters like F16 and F18? Not to forget that the Gripen NG is completelly dependend on other nations, including the US for all main parts.
Of course a single nation offer like Mig 35, or Rafale is more sanction prove, but that is only one advantage, not a requirement.

 

[Luftwaffe]

mig-35 gives creepy looks of F-15/F-14 what did russians do with it lol.

 

[razgriz19]

mig-35 gives creepy looks of F-15/F-14 what did russians do with it lol.

dont kno wat they did but they sure made it look more cuter!

 

[KEETARP]

Its not about T/W ratio only.
What india air force wants to test is switching off and on at Leh airfield, which includes various subsystem reliability since Temperature at Leh is below -10

+ taking off with combat load which is Thrust to Weight ratio
I am assuming Thrust to be important factor since-The rarefied atmosphere at high altitudes results in less air supply to the engine which results in reduced thrust. Taking off requires the most amount of thrust from the engine generally so the Engine with maximum thrust should perform better.

This is the quote from same news
The Hindu : Front Page : Sweden's Gripens head for AFS Jaisalmer

BANGALORE: Sweden's Gripen NG, the last of the six fighter aircraft that are being evaluated by the Indian Air Force for the $12 billion medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) deal, left Bangalore on Monday morning for the Air Force Station (AFS) Jaisalmer.

Having gone through a week of performance trials — including a demonstration of air-to-air refuelling and flying manoeuvres — by the IAF's specifically designated MMRCA team here, two Gripens will now complete the remaining part of their flight tests over Pokhran and Leh before heading for the AFS Jamnagar and then to an air base in Sweden.

While one of the Gripens will undertake hot weather trials in and around the AFS Jaisalmer and later take off to perform a dummy run and bomb drop at the Pokhran test range, the other fighter, as part of the cold weather trials, will land in Leh, switch off, refuel and then take off again.

Ministry of Defence officials familiar with the MMRCA trials told The Hindu that while they expect no hiccups during the weapons drop over Pokhran, the Leh exercise proved challenging to the other contenders vying for the MMRCA deal.

The officials confided that four of the five aircraft in the MMRCA competition faced problems starting up in the rarefied atmosphere of Leh, and the IAF had to ask the manufacturers to undertake modifications in the aircraft's fuel systems. The Gripen's evaluation is part of the MMRCA flight trials, which started in August last, when the F/A-18 Hornets arrived here. These were followed by another American fighter, the F-16IN Super Viper. In September, the French Rafale flew over Bangalore. It was followed by Russia's MiG-35 and the European Aeronautic Defence and Space consortium's Eurofighter Typhoon flew in March.

Now it comes down to operating experience in cold environment and altitude

Mig35 - wont have problems with its system bcoz of operating in Russian subzero temp. Altitude wise they have operated earlier in LEH , but whether with meaningful load that is a question??????
Though its t/w ratio is 18000 kgf / 17500 kg for normal combat load.

F-16's- operate in Alaska & Norway, but t/w ratio is less than 1
and then they have never operated at such high altitude- maximum they have is 6035 in Colorado springs
source- MMRCA trials: Chance to match highest take-off record | StratPost

The highest location from where the F-16 has taken off so far is Peterson Air Force Base in Colorado Springs, Colorado at an elevation of 6,035 feet. Colorado Springs is also the location of the United States Air Force Academy. Peterson Air Force Base, according to John Giese of Lockheed Martin, could also be safely considered the location with the thinnest density of air from where an F-16 has taken off. Leh is at an altitude of around 10,500 feet.

With restrictions being placed on information about the trials that could be given out by the participating companies, Giese had this to say. “Let me put it this way. We have been aware of this. We have great faith in the aircraft.” Is it going to be a big deal for Lockheed Martin? The vendor seems well aware of the bragging rights that come with a take-off from Leh. “Let’s just say that after this trial, Colorado Springs will no longer be the highest place from where an F-16 would have taken off,” he says, with an excited grin that can be sensed even over the phone.

The coldest location the F-16 has operated from is the Eielson Air Force Base in Alaska, where temperatures routinely drop to -30 degrees Celsius. The northernmost latitude from where the F-16 operates is Main Air Station at Bodo in Norway, above the Arctic Circle at 66.5 degrees North, where the average winter temperature is 0 degrees Celsius. Leh sees temperatures that fall well below – 20 in winter.

Lockheed Martin also submits in the context of density of air that, “The F-16 being offered to India is fully certified for flight operations up to 15.24 km (50,000 ft). At 15.24 kilometers high, the atmospheric pressure is only 110 millibars, (1.6 pounds per square inch), which is 1/9th of the atmospheric pressure at sea level.”

F-18's have operated in Canada in cold ,but t/w ratio less than 1and maximum altitude data is difficult to find on net since these are Sea based fighters,still cant rule them out bcoz Boeing was happy.
source - Super Hornets arrive in Australia

"We just completed field trials in India and I think we did very well," Gower says. He explains that Boeing showed off the Super Hornet's integration of the sensor suite and also performed a landing at 10,000ft (3,000m) above sea level. "We have the best handling qualities of any aircraft out there right now."

................cont in next post

 

[KEETARP]

Eurofighter underwent cold whether trials at -31 degrees in Sweden and for a significant combat load of 4BVR+2WVR and fuel for 900 km radius will have t/w more than 1 , but max altitude operation is not known still bcoz of better t/w ratio it can pass the trials

Gripen and Rafale have T/w ratio close to 1 , but operational wise i doubt bcoz Rafale are solely operated by French air-force and Navy and have no history of operation at high altitude of 11000 or low temp at -30.

Gripen sent have engines F404 so thrust will be less and its operators SA+Sweden dont have to operate at such high altitude, i doubt them also in clearing the tests .

So my guess is failures would be - Rafale , F16 , Gripen + may be F18 (But boeing's response says otherwise)

Tejas did clear tests in LEH with -2 drop tanks+ 1 ISRAEL pod+ 2 R73 missile,


If tejas can do why not Gripen ????

And Mirage in Kargil war dropped significant Bombing

but i doubt they took off from LEH , so Rafale is doubtful.

Thats my take -Some one should clear out more to have a clear picture
Plz stick to the topic and post only abt technical data , no crap or wishlist or bashing American/Russian jets