Former Pakistani General: CIA, Mossad behind WikiLeaks Reports

[TechLahore]

Quite right. I do want to visit Pakistan sometime. I have little idea of how most Pakistanis interact at a personal and family level, for example. I don't know how most Pakistanis interpret art and form. But via forums and newspapers I can tell how Pakistanis reason.

Well come on over then. I offered you before and am offering you again. Come to Lahore. I'll be more than happy to host you.

I have spent half my life in the west, the US in particular. I read all the major US newspapers and have seen more than my fair share of US focused internet forums. Let me tell you, real Americans you sit across the table with, look in the eye and talk to are *not* what you get in forum posts and newspapers. The same is true for Pakistanis.

You claim you and Gates' share the borderline "insanity" opinion. I haven't come across Gates claiming that the Pakistani nation is insane. Would you care to point me to that statement?

You have not demonstrated what necessary quality is lacking in my background, have you?

Um, actually, I have. What is lacking in your background is that you have not even visited the country and nation you are calling insane. You have never interacted with Pakistanis in Pakistan. You have no sense for what the Pakistanis who you will never find on a defence forum are like. And they are the majority. Further, you made a broad claim about an entire nation and have not demonstrated at all what objective metrics you based your insult on. You are the one making the insanity claim. You need to then demonstrate that you have the data and the qualifications to make sense of the data. We are talking sociology here, not mathematics. So there is no 2+2 = 4 simplistic proof involved. Your background, your qualifications in judging a society, your exposure to that society are all very important elements that determine whether or not you have a leg to stand on in making the sort of claim you did. By your own admission, you have none of the above, so I am amused that you continue the obfuscation.

If you don't like inference talk to the French, they are big on deduction.

I'm content with on the ground reality, thank you.

 

[Solomon2]

Wow! You are super defensive for someone who just called an entire nation borderline "insane". Can you smell the hypocrisy there?

No. I am stating (propounding, if you wish) a national quality of thinking, one that is relevant to how Pakistanis process information. You are engaging in an ad hominem attack while ignoring my ideas.

when you make such a strong statement about 175 million people, asking you what real basis you have to make these claims is not a personal attack. It is simply reasonable.

Yes. And I've cited the bases. I've pointed out as near as I can tell this general's statement can only be taken seriously if Pakistanis share this deficiency. (If this general made such unsupported conspiracy claims at a meeting of my local school board the reaction from the audience and officials would be so strong he'd probably wet himself.)

Your inability to address the question has left you flustered perhaps.

What question? About my qualifications? What in the world could be proven on a forum? So the question itself is moot.

You, on the other hand, have failed to address my ideas, save to question the representativeness of the Pakistanis here (yourself included) as the primary basis of forming them.

 

[TechLahore]

You, on the other hand, have failed to address my ideas, save to question the representativeness of the Pakistanis here (yourself included) as the primary basis of forming them.

What "ideas"? That the Pakistani nation is "insane"? Seriously? You want me to argue the case for why 175 million people are not insane?

 

[Solomon2]

Well come on over then. I offered you before and am offering you again. Come to Lahore. I'll be more than happy to host you.

Thanks for the invitation. I may come over, but I'm not going to do it on my own dime, so I'm not sure when that can happen.

real Americans you sit across the table with, look in the eye and talk to are *not* what you get in forum posts and newspapers. The same is true for Pakistanis.

Pakistan is run by and for a feudal, elite class. There are democratic elements, like Great Britain three hundred years ago. The opinion of ordinary Pakistanis counts much less than that of Pakistanis who are "in" the system.

You claim you and Gates' share the borderline "insanity" opinion. I haven't come across Gates claiming that the Pakistani nation is insane. Would you care to point me to that statement?

Sec Def commented that one can never be an optimist about Pakistan -

What is lacking in your background is that you have not even visited the country and nation you are calling insane. You have never interacted with Pakistanis in Pakistan.

You have no sense for what the Pakistanis who you will never find on a defence forum are like.

Oh, I do. What I don't have is a sense of Pakistanis who are not part of the elite.

you made a broad claim about an entire nation and have not demonstrated at all what objective metrics you based your insult on. You are the one making the insanity claim.

I read unfounded claims propagated as truth by Pakistanis all the time (yourself included, if you care to recall). Some such claims even form the primary justifications for GOP policies. This man could never reach the rank of general by throwing unfounded conspiracy theories into the air otherwise.

You need to then demonstrate that you have the data and the qualifications to make sense of the data. We are talking sociology here, not mathematics.

I do think a more thorough survey (even statistical) of Pakistani opinion-makers (civilian, government, tribal, and press) is in order.

By your own admission, you have none of the above, so I am amused that you continue the obfuscation.

I didn't say, "none". The majority of what I do have is the interaction I experience here, observing its correlation with Pakistani actions. You have not shown how this is insufficient.

 

[TechLahore]

Pakistan is run by and for a feudal, elite class. There are democratic elements, like Great Britain three hundred years ago. The opinion of ordinary Pakistanis counts much less than that of Pakistanis who are "in" the system.

The feudal class has been losing power since 1980. It is no longer the hub of power. The richest people in Pakistan are not feudals, they are businessmen from old (and new) business families. Mian Mansha is a case in point. Sir Anwer Pervez, the Jang Group, the Ali Family, the Saigols and Mannoos etc. none of them are feudal. The Dauds too.

The opinion of ordinary Pakistanis counts quite a bit. Specially on issues they care about. You may remember the recent episodes with the CJ, the Long March and so on. Without "ordinary" Pakistanis, none of these things could have happened.

Sec Def commented that one can never be an optimist about Pakistan -

And how is this the same as calling Pakistan a borderline insane nation?

Oh, I do. What I don't have is a sense of Pakistanis who are not part of the elite.

Minor detail. So what if you don't have a sense for 95% or 99% of Pakistanis. Doesn't stop you from labelling them all "insane"!

I read unfounded claims propagated as truth by Pakistanis all the time (yourself included, if you care to recall). Some such claims

That may be your perception, but it is not ours.

I do think a more thorough survey (even statistical) of Pakistani opinion-makers (civilian, government, tribal, and press) is in order.

Why? There are internet forums and such that allow people to offer unqualified judgements on the Pakistani nation. Why waste money on surveys?

You have not shown how this is insufficient.

You're out on a limb, Solomon2. As I have already said, 95 or 99% of Pakistanis are outside the group you claim to have interacted with (anonymously, on the internet!!). By definition, the "elite" is not representative of the nation. If it were, then it wouldn't be the elite. Yet the statement you made which I took exception to was a condemnation of the entire Pakistani nation, 95% of which is composed of people you have never interacted with. So if you don't see how your knowledge of Pakistanis is "insufficient" to pass the judgement you did, then I can't help you. Let those who read this exchange decide for themselves.

 

[building7]

assange = cia mossad dog .

if it walks like a duck then it probably is a duck .

 

[BS_Buster]

Conspiracy theory. CIA always work for US, not against US.

 

[53fd]

Conspiracy theory. CIA always work for US, not against US.

Who said Wikileaks is working against the US? Julian Assange does not think 9/11 was a conspiracy, denies there is a US-Israel Zionist link. Last time I read their reports, they were talking about Saudi Arabia wanting US to attack Iran, that Osama bin Laden is alive, that Pakistan's ISI is aiding the Taliban, that Pakistan's nukes are not safe from religious extremists, that China was ready to alienate North Korea, how Turkey's leadership was divided and unreliable, how Afghanistan's government was corrupt etc; all of these pressure tactics on other countries. It does not talk, for example, about Israel's genocide in Palestinian Gaza.

This clearly shows it is working FOR the warmongering elements in the US government against other countries. Seems like a "lot of tabloid news to be honest", a lot of conspiracy theories being treated as facts by countries and people, when it can in no way be treated as credible evidence.

 

[DesiGuy]

Another Conspiracy from these guys! *facepalm*

 

[Vassnti]

someone in the US government or intelligence that through US government/intelligence approval leaks out these documents. How would they get access to such 'classified information'?

From the chat logs provided by Lamo, and examined by Wired.com, it appears Manning sensed a kindred spirit in the ex-hacker. He discussed personal issues that got him into trouble with his superiors and left him socially isolated, and said he had been demoted and was headed for an early discharge from the Army.

When Manning told Lamo that he leaked a quarter-million classified embassy cables, Lamo contacted the Army, and then met with Army CID investigators and the FBI at a Starbucks near his house in Carmichael, California, where he passed the agents a copy of the chat logs. At their second meeting with Lamo on May 27, FBI agents from the Oakland Field Office told the hacker that Manning had been arrested the day before in Iraq by Army CID investigators.

Lamo has contributed funds to Wikileaks in the past, and says he agonized over the decision to expose Manning — he says he’s frequently contacted by hackers who want to talk about their adventures, and he has never considered reporting anyone before. The supposed diplomatic cable leak, however, made him believe Manning’s actions were genuinely dangerous to U.S. national security.

“I wouldn’t have done this if lives weren’t in danger,” says Lamo, who discussed the details with Wired.com following Manning’s arrest. “He was in a war zone and basically trying to vacuum up as much classified information as he could, and just throwing it up into the air.”

U.S. Intelligence Analyst Arrested in Wikileaks Video Probe | Threat Level | Wired.com

why isn't Julian Assange being arrested

He is in Sweden

 

[FullMetalJacket]

One can only speculate. After all, these sensivite documents just so happened to fall into some hacker's hands. I smell the stain of some kind of a plot.

 

[53fd]

why isn't Julian Assange being arrested

He is in Sweden

Can't the US government ask Sweden to hand him over, or arrest him themselves if he is a 'threat to US national security', instead of giving the guy a free pass to "spread the message"?

 

[mikkix]

why isn't Julian Assange being arrested

He is in Sweden

Can't the US government ask Sweden to hand him over, or arrest him themselves, instead of giving the guy a free pass to "spread the message"?

he is going for vacations by the approval of cia....he did a gr8 job..

 

[Vassnti]

why isn't Julian Assange being arrested

He is in Sweden

Can't the US government ask Sweden to hand him over, or arrest him themselves, instead of giving the guy a free pass to "spread the message"?

More correctly I should say Sweden was his last known location, JA didnt steal the documents he is just publishing them makes it a grey area for extradition. Possibly why they are going with the rape charges rather than breach of the secrets act.

The guy who actually stole the documents has been arrested and will probably next see sunlight when the sun goes nova.

 

[53fd]

Possibly why they are going with the rape charges rather than breach of the secrets act.

The secret documents he 'leaked' seem nothing more than cheap, tabloid news.

Something Stinks About Wikileaks