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For the naive and self-blinded....

I blame it on the self proclaimed secular parties, BECAUSE they aren't secular and give actual secularists like me a bad name.

As for the VHP, the less said the better, the same applies to Bajrang Dal and their ilk.

Savarkar-esque (his notion of Hindutva was a regional identity based on absolute loyalty to the land encompassed by Bharat and not one linked to the Hindu religion itself) nationalism that has NO PLACE FOR ANY RELIGION AS SUCH is the need of the hour. Let the weak clutch on to god. Keep your religion in your mosques and temples, on the street you have none, one code of conduct and one code of law.

And the dream ends. :(
I agree on it 1000 times!! No religious bigotry should be allowed in public or especially in govt. Policies. Treat everyone equally and end all sort of appeasement politics irrespective of religions. Only constitution of India should be govt's religion and thats it.
 
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Its not just a bid to malign Modi, there is a more sinister agenda, undermining the Indian judicial system. This article, and many like it that has recently appeared in the Western media(mostly British), are pointing fingers at our judicial system, and our so called left wing intellectuals are gulping it down hook line and sinker.

I mean the Brits are pointing fingers at our judicial system, the Brits are raising the issue of moral and ethical culpability of Modi in Gujarat riots. The very Brits whose prime minister waged a war against Iraq, and was responsible for the the death of atleast a million innocent Iraqis, they have the audacity to question our justice system and our democratic right to vote for Modi !



To give you an example, why do you think the above quoted paragraph was added? What value does it add to the article, did it help the author in driving his point home?

Well the British just have our best interest in their minds. Who else will hold our hand? :(

When you spot needless details, specifically aimed at setting up an image without actual data, then you know something is fishy.
 
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Well the British just have our best interest in their minds. Who else will hold our hand? :(

When you spot needless details, specifically aimed at setting up an image without actual data, then you know something is fishy.

Yup exactly, they are just painting a picture of how useless, derelict, dysfunctional, ineffective our judicial system is. And of course the Brits, they still think that they can run India better than Indians themselves.
 
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Yup exactly, they are just painting a picture of how useless, derelict, dysfunctional, ineffective our judicial system is. And of course the Brits, they still think that they can run India better than Indians themselves.

Umm...Roy.
Yup exactly, they are just painting a picture of how useless, derelict, dysfunctional, ineffective our judicial system is. And of course the Brits, they still think that they can run India better than Indians themselves.

If they give me a life time supply of English muffins I'm willing to endorse their POV.:p:

On a serious note. The very hallmark of mob violence in the subcontinent is that it is extremely difficult to catch all perps and convict them. By its very nature mob action provides anonymity and cover for the perps, one perp hiding behind another and so on. There are indeed severe flaws in the way our lower courts often function but the author conveniently forgets that this is probably the first instance where a heinous crime was pinned on to powerful political figures and convictions actually occurred. The moment a person brings up Tytler or Hiteshwar the accusations fly thick and fast that the person is attempting to justify the current miscarriage of justice with previous ones, now it is indeed possible that the individual is attempting just that so fair enough but one begs the question as to why the same are at least not highlighted and given equal editorial space, so it would only be rational to sense a certain modicum of bias for any reader.
 
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Where there are umpteen examples of oppression and all other issue that we face as a problem in India as a nation. I find it amusing that one state gives the best and worst(according to many) examples. Could this be coincidence or a targeted one.
 
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Yup exactly, they are just painting a picture of how useless, derelict, dysfunctional, ineffective our judicial system is. And of course the Brits, they still think that they can run India better than Indians themselves.

Our judicial system is actually very inefficient and super corrupt.no doubt about it.

U will be amazed
 
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I made a mistake again. Names remain elusive to me .. :(
It was actually Qutb ud din Aibak who destroyed the Nalanda complex as ordered by Khilji. The context was actually with reference to a parallel with Ashoka. Unile Ashoka, there was no repentance for Khilji. Indeed, it is mentioned as a matter of pride in chronicles. :( After Nalanda's destruction there was no center of learning of repute left in India and we moved into the dark ages within a century.

Dara Shikoh may have been killed for the throne. But his killing was peculiar when it comes to the almost ritual slaughter of brothers in Mughal times. Shikoh was reasonably pro-Dharma, even being a Muslim. His rule would have been in stark contrast to the bigotry of Aurangzeb. His interest in Hindu and other scriptures and his personal education in Hindu religious texts and subsequent respect for them stands out.

There are broadly two types of people in India with conflicting ideas about what is good for the country. Even though they have the best interests in their hearts(I hope), their methods differ. One line of thought has been exercised for 60 years and we are still languishing in mirth. It won't do harm to try the other method as well. And oh the other method is putting sectarian differences aside and working for a market based free economy and NOT a Hindu Rashtra. :devil:

Engaging with you is possible, after all, if I stick to fact.

Qutbuddin Aibak had nothing to do with the burning of the Nalanda complex. He was the successor to Muhammad of Ghor, and Ikhtiyaruddin Muhammad bin Bakhtiyar Khalji was a very, very junior commander under a provincial governor of Aibak.

What a pity that you wasted so much of your time languishing (sic) in mirth. And how noble it is to strive for putting aside sectarian differences and working for a market based free economy. You could have fooled us; we thought, from every post of yours, every smart quip, every droll observation, that you might be wearing khaki close to the skin. What an unfortunate mistake.

you are just a saffron version of @Spring Onion

Spring Onion has redeeming qualities.

Umm...Roy.


If they give me a life time supply of English muffins I'm willing to endorse their POV.:p:

On a serious note. The very hallmark of mob violence in the subcontinent is that it is extremely difficult to catch all perps and convict them. By its very nature mob action provides anonymity and cover for the perps, one perp hiding behind another and so on. There are indeed severe flaws in the way our lower courts often function but the author conveniently forgets that this is probably the first instance where a heinous crime was pinned on to powerful political figures and convictions actually occurred. The moment a person brings up Tytler or Hiteshwar the accusations fly thick and fast that the person is attempting to justify the current miscarriage of justice with previous ones, now it is indeed possible that the individual is attempting just that so fair enough but one begs the question as to why the same are at least not highlighted and given equal editorial space, so it would only be rational to sense a certain modicum of bias for any reader.

Are you joking? He is reporting his personal experiences during his doctoral research. To have done that for the 8 years after 1984, he would have had to be attending court in his diapers (he was born around 1984).
 
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Engaging with you is possible, after all, if I stick to fact.

Qutbuddin Aibak had nothing to do with the burning of the Nalanda complex. He was the successor to Muhammad of Ghor, and Ikhtiyaruddin Muhammad bin Bakhtiyar Khalji was a very, very junior commander under a provincial governor of Aibak.

What a pity that you wasted so much of your time languishing (sic) in mirth. And how noble it is to strive for putting aside sectarian differences and working for a market based free economy. You could have fooled us; we thought, from every post of yours, every smart quip, every droll observation, that you might be wearing khaki close to the skin. What an unfortunate mistake.
"from every post of yours, every smart quip, every droll observation" - Thanks again sire for the kind words. But it is where your judgement that got clouded there. I am a Saffron person(that's more true literally - Kashmiri cuisine) - from head to toe, and I have never denied that. My 'About Me' remains unchanged right from the beginning. I am neither confused, not hiding behind what can best be called diplomatic niceties.

Probably Aibak had more than 'absolutely nothing' to do with the Nalanda 'complex' (sic).
1. Revived Nalanda University invites global architects for its buildings - The Times of India -
2. The legacy of wisdom
3. Nobel laureate sets date for Nalanda
4. Bakhtiyar Khilji - Nalanda university - Historum - History Forums
5. Revived Nalanda varsity to start functioning by February-end - The Hindu


What a pity that you wasted so much of your time languishing (sic) in mirth
I would honestly not consider it a 'wasted' exercise. Just look at the thread and the prevailing national opinion. I can sympathize and even appreciate your concerns but can't agree with them. I value a check, a rein that prevents excesses, in that regard, precisely why I will always welcome opposing thoughts. But sanctimonious thinking does turn me off, to be honest.

"what an unfortunate mistake" - perhaps you had a preconceived notion that all Hindutvadis are uncultured and devoid of intellect. It should not be a surprise that intellectual pursuits are no longer a leftist monopoly(no, I am not calling you one, please)

I only found this entire discussion slightly amusing, chuckling at the bygone days of India's vaunted Nehruvian socialism and reinforced reverse-discrimination as an antidote to discrimination! It does shock me sometimes when Shourie says and Maroof Raza agrees, how long can an iron fence protect a tree from termites! (don't assume anything pls)

With all due respect, I would like to read any book or publication that you (I assume) have authored. I have survived Mani Shankar Iyer's 'A Secular Fundamentalist'. I am sure I can read yours. :tup:


That said - I expected a point to point rebuttal or something of more value after such a long period of absence. Instead what I got what a personal attack, literally an attempt at character assassination. You are among the folks I do respect, and in this regard, if I consider this a counter argument, I admit I have been let down.

@Spring Onion - Is one of my dearest members, so thanks.

@Dillinger 's comments you misunderstood, I guess.

@Roybot @ExtraOdinary @Hyperion @Ravi Nair @chak de INDIA @levina@JanjaWeed
 
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This is a fact of India,all the hurt and abuse hindus have faced in north india from muslim rulers and their co hindus who converted for money,they have never seen any justice in their lives.

So,the biggest failure of the indian constitution is in overlooking this fact and the only solution congress provides is by providing short time steroids to each and everyone as according to the person,

It is money and freebies for the poor,tactical political power for the OBCs & numerically small brahmins and appeasement for the muslims.

By indulging in such silly short term policies,congress makes way for a much stronger backlash later.

This is like going and getting drunk after having a love failure.The soothing effect lasts only till the next morning,after that one has to face the reality of the girl/guy dumping him/her.

If majority people of India believe that the law discriminates against them,then the law or its spirit will never get implemented.

So all those people who feel the irrational & over idealistc and non pragmatic parts of the constitution should be deemed higher than the common social good at any point of time,may do so in their ow lives.

People of India have a lot of clarity on their choices and exercise them.

I can show you lots and lots of educated hindus and even christians who feel that the local sunnis and ther archaic religious laws are a huge baggage for the indian economy and society.

The lazy slob nawabi culture just doesnt fit into the goals of the country today.

These are the plain facts,in very simple words.

Agencies like the EPW can sit on their *** enjoying taxpayer money and spout any incongruent nonsense as they please.

It makes zero difference to the ground realities.

LOL Hindutvas trying to get justice against Muslims who were not around more than 500 years ago to have done them any harm. :lol:
 
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http://www.nytimes.com/2014/04/19/opinion/being-muslim-under-narendra-modi.html?ref=opinion&_r=0

AHMEDABAD, India — Late last month I bought an Indian comic book online. I hadn’t bought one since the mid-80s, when I was a boy and would walk to the bookstore in my hometown in Kashmir to pick up copies of D.C. and Marvel Comics, or Amar Chitra Katha, a series based on the lives of major contemporary, historical and mythological figures in India. My latest purchase, “Bal Narendra” (“Boy Narendra”), was styled after Amar Chitra Katha.

I turned the pages with a mixture of anticipation and foreboding. The book purports to tell stories from the childhood of Narendra Modi, the longtime chief minister of Gujarat, one of the richest states in India, and the polarizing Hindu nationalist candidate for prime minister in the ongoing election. The tales are part of Mr. Modi’s high-octane campaign effort to present himself as a bearer of good governance, growth and efficiency.

Bal Narendra, the son of a tea-seller in a small town of Gujarat, embodies many virtues: courage, wit, diligence, fairness, compassion. He sells tea at a village fair to raise money for flood victims. In devotion to the religious tradition of his village, he swims across a lake full of crocodiles and hoists a flag on top of a temple on an island. When some bullies rough up a weaker child at school, he marks them by throwing ink from his fountain pen on their shirts and denounces them to the principal.

The publishers of the comic book — available exclusively from Infibeam, an Amazon-like online retailer run by a Gujarati entrepreneur close to Mr. Modi — would have you believe that now that he is all grown up, Bal Narendra is just as brave, clever and just. If anything, however, Mr. Modi’s public record paints the picture of a leader unapologetically divisive and sectarian.

It was on his watch as chief minister that more than 1,000 people, many of them Muslims, were killed throughout Gujarat in 2002, when rioting erupted after some 60 Hindus died in a burning train in Godhra. A Human Rights Watch report that year asserted that the state government and local police officials were complicit in the carnage.

Mr. Modi has not visited the camps of the Muslims displaced by the violence or apologized for his government’s failure to protect a minority. Instead, he has described the reprisal killings of Muslims that year as a simple “reaction” to an “action,” namely the deaths of the Hindu train passengers — and has said he felt as sad about them as would a passenger in a car that accidentally ran over a puppy. His only regret, he once told a reporter for this paper, was failing to manage the media fallout.

Even as candidate for prime minister, Mr. Modi has not given up his sectarian ways. Nor has his party, the Hindu nationalist Bharatiya Janata Party. Of the 449 B.J.P. candidates now running for seats in the lower house of Parliament, all but eight are Hindu. The party’s latest election manifesto reintroduces a proposal to build a temple to the Hindu god Ram on the site of a medieval mosque in the northern town of Ayodhya, even though the destruction of that mosque by Hindu extremists and B.J.P. supporters in 1992 devolved into violence that killed several thousand people.

Amit Shah, a former Gujarat minister and Mr. Modi’s closest aide, is awaiting trial for the murder of three people the police suspect of plotting to assassinate Mr. Modi. (Mr. Shah calls the charges a political conspiracy.) He has made speeches inciting anti-Muslim sentiment among Hindu voters, including in Uttar Pradesh, the most populous state in India, despite an outbreak of sectarian violence there last September.

Ahmedabad ceases to swagger in Juhapura, a southwestern neighborhood and the city’s largest Muslim ghetto.

The problem isn’t just about rhetoric. Judging by the evidence in Gujarat, where Mr. Modi has been chief minister since 2001, a B.J.P. victory in the general election would increase marginalization and vulnerability among India’s 165 million Muslims.

Ahmedabad, Gujarat’s largest city, has become a wealthy metropolis of about six million people and three million private vehicles. Office complexes, high-rise apartments, busy markets and shopping malls have replaced the poor villages that once dotted the land. The city has a mass transit system called People’s Path, with corridors reserved for buses.

But Ahmedabad ceases to swagger in Juhapura, a southwestern neighborhood and the city’s largest Muslim ghetto, with about 400,000 people. I rode around there last week on the back of a friend’s scooter. On the dusty main street was a smattering of white and beige apartment blocks and shopping centers. A multistory building announced itself in neon signs as a community hall; a restaurant boasted of having air-conditioning. The deeper we went into the neighborhood, the narrower the streets, the shabbier the buildings, the thicker the crowds.

The edge of the ghetto came abruptly. Just behind us was a row of tiny, single-story houses with peeling paint. Up ahead, in an empty space the size of a soccer field, children chased one another, jumping over heaps of broken bricks. “This is The Border,” my friend said. Beyond the field was a massive concrete wall topped with barbed wire and oval surveillance cameras. On the other side, we could see a neat row of beige apartment blocks with air conditioners securely attached to the windows — housing for middle-class Hindu families.

Mr. Modi’s engines of growth seem to have stalled on The Border. His acclaimed bus network ends a few miles before Juhapura. The route of a planned metro rail line also stops short of the neighborhood. The same goes for the city’s gas pipelines, which are operated by a company belonging to a billionaire businessman close to Mr. Modi.

“The sun is allowed into Juhapura. The rain is allowed into Juhapura. The wind is allowed into Juhapura,” Asif Pathan, a 41-year-old resident, said with sarcasm. “I get a bill for water tax and pay it, but we don’t get piped water here.” The locals rely on bore wells, which cough up salty, insalubrious water.

Mr. Pathan has been living in Juhapura since 1988, when his father, a retired district judge, bought a house here from a Hindu man. “My father said, ‘When the storm comes, you don’t get more than 10 minutes to run,"’ Mr. Pathan explained, referring to the threat of sectarian violence. In the late 1970s and early 1980s, Juhapura was a mixed Hindu-Muslim neighborhood, but with the string of sectarian clashes in Gujarat — in 1985, 1992 and 2002 — more Muslims began to move here, seeking relative safety among people like themselves. Prejudice begets riots, and riots only exacerbate prejudice, and so the population of Juhapura has almost doubled since 2002.

After the 2002 riots, Mr. Pathan, a teacher, began tutoring children in Juhapura. Then he quit his job and, with his father’s support, bought a large patch of land by the highway that runs through Juhapura. In 2008 he started his own school. Now, around 1,300 children there attend classes in both Gujarati and English in airy classrooms. “We simply have to help ourselves,” Mr. Pathan said.
But self-help only goes so far, in Juhapura, and elsewhere. A large chunk of Narol, an area on the southern edge of Ahmedabad, was once a patch of uninhabited brushland that belonged to a wealthy political family. After Mr. Modi’s government refused to help relocate victims of the 2002 riots, several secular and Islamic organizations and small-time Muslims developers got involved. They bought land, cleared it, and built tenement houses, asbestos-lined roofs and all. About 120 homes were assigned by lottery to Muslims displaced from Naroda Patia, in northeast Ahmedabad. The cluster is called Citizens’ Nagar, or Citizens’ City, and wherever you stand in the self-made neighborhood you can see, half a mile away, a big brown mountain: the largest garbage dump in Mr. Modi’s boom city.

When I walked around Citizens’ Nagar last week, the brown mountain was burning into thick gray clouds under a harsh afternoon sun. The wind pushed pungent fumes toward the tenements. I struggled to breathe and feared I would vomit.

“Every year we have lived here I feel weaker,” said Mohsin Syed, a wiry 25-year-old from Naroda Patia who now works as a carpenter in a factory nearby. “I can’t run like I used to. I don’t eat like I used to.” He complained of pain in his joints, said he needed surgery for kidney stones, and added, “This place, this pollution, takes a decade off one’s life.”

His father, Najeebudin Syed, a large man with a short beard, told me that the many petitions he has sent to local authorities describing living conditions in the area have been ignored. “Once a week, they bring garbage from the Ahmedabad hospitals — bandages, medicine, refuse of all kinds. The smell is so foul, so bitter, that we know in a minute it is from the hospitals,” he said. Some days, the carcasses of dead animals are brought to the dump.

That evening, back in my hotel room, I read another story from the comic book “Bal Narendra.” The boy is at a camp of the National Cadet Corps — the Indian version of the Eagle Scouts — when he notices a pigeon in a tree entangled in the strings of a kite. Holding a razor blade between his teeth, he climbs up, cuts the lines and frees the injured bird. I remembered Juhapura’s putrid water and the carcasses on the brown mountain, and wondered how a Prime Minister Narendra would wield that blade.

Basharat Peer is the author of “Curfewed Night,” a memoir of the conflict in Kashmir.
 
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"from every post of yours, every smart quip, every droll observation" - Thanks again sire for the kind words. But it is where your judgement that got clouded there. I am a Saffron person(that's more true literally - Kashmiri cuisine) - from head to toe, and I have never denied that. My 'About Me' remains unchanged right from the beginning. I am neither confused, not hiding behind what can best be called diplomatic niceties.

Probably Aibak had more than 'absolutely nothing' to do with the Nalanda 'complex' (sic).
1. Revived Nalanda University invites global architects for its buildings - The Times of India -
2. The legacy of wisdom
3. Nobel laureate sets date for Nalanda
4. Bakhtiyar Khilji - Nalanda university - Historum - History Forums
5. Revived Nalanda varsity to start functioning by February-end - The Hindu

Aibak, I repeat, had nothing, absolutely nothing to do with the Nalanda complex. I had started earlier by speculating that engaging with your kind of intellect would be possible on factual grounds, if nothing else. This very immature thought completely omitted to take into account the limited intellect that breeds a certain kind of rigid and bigoted mental posture. Consider the following:

No less than five citations were offered, proposing to contradict the statement of Aibak's non-involvement. All the five say the same uniform thing, that Bakhtiyar Khilji was a general of Aibak's. The implication being that he fought to Aibak's plans, that he was instructed by Aibak, that his actions were the execution of orders issued by Aibak.

Horse feathers.

This is the kind of shallow Internet Hindu instant knowledge that I deprecate.

None of the sources is authentic, none of them anything more than a journalist's summary for the story at hand. None of them refer to the one and only source that we have for the events under discussion, the Tabaqat-i-Nasiri, as the name implies, a monumental history of the Turkish invaders and their early Sultans by a qazi serving Sultan Nasir-ud-din, the brother of the ill-starred Raziyya, and son-in-law to Ghiyas-ud-din Balban.

The Tabaqat is quite clear in its account, which might explain my irritation at the hedge scholarly account of @SarthakGanguly:

  • Bakhtiyar Khilji was a very minor officer at Ghor;
  • He migrated to Delhi hoping to be ‘recognised’ and promoted;
  • He was ignored by Aibak and his court;
  • He travelled to the provincial capital of Budayun, and got another minor position;
  • Hoping for better, he travelled further on, to the frontier governorship of Oudh.
  • The governor here saw potential in him, and gave him land to maintain himself, and a responsible position;
  • Bakhtiyar Khilji used his income to build a band of fanatical followers, and started raiding Bihar;
  • In one raid, he sacked Nalanda, killed thousands of its inhabitants, peaceful monks, and made a catacomb of the place;
  • It was due to these raids, and his consequent conquest of Bihar, that he finally came to the notice of the Royal Court at Delhi.
Sanctimonious thinking, which is sought to substitute for application and diligence, does turn me off, to be honest.

I would honestly not consider it a 'wasted' exercise. Just look at the thread and the prevailing national opinion. I can sympathize and even appreciate your concerns but can't agree with them. I value a check, a rein that prevents excesses, in that regard, precisely why I will always welcome opposing thoughts. But sanctimonious thinking does turn me off, to be honest.

"what an unfortunate mistake" - perhaps you had a preconceived notion that all Hindutvadis are uncultured and devoid of intellect. It should not be a surprise that intellectual pursuits are no longer a leftist monopoly(no, I am not calling you one, please)

I only found this entire discussion slightly amusing, chuckling at the bygone days of India's vaunted Nehruvian socialism and reinforced reverse-discrimination as an antidote to discrimination! It does shock me sometimes when Shourie says and Maroof Raza agrees, how long can an iron fence protect a tree from termites! (don't assume anything pls)

With all due respect, I would like to read any book or publication that you (I assume) have authored. I have survived Mani Shankar Iyer's 'A Secular Fundamentalist'. I am sure I can read yours. :tup:
That said - I expected a point to point rebuttal or something of more value after such a long period of absence. Instead what I got what a personal attack, literally an attempt at character assassination. You are among the folks I do respect, and in this regard, if I consider this a counter argument, I admit I have been let down.

@Spring Onion - Is one of my dearest members, so thanks.

@Dillinger 's comments you misunderstood, I guess.

@Roybot @ExtraOdinary @Hyperion @Ravi Nair @chak de INDIA @levina@JanjaWeed
 
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Aibak, I repeat, had nothing, absolutely nothing to do with the Nalanda complex. I had started earlier by speculating that engaging with your kind of intellect would be possible on factual grounds, if nothing else. This very immature thought completely omitted to take into account the limited intellect that breeds a certain kind of rigid and bigoted mental posture. Consider the following:

No less than five citations were offered, proposing to contradict the statement of Aibak's non-involvement. All the five say the same uniform thing, that Bakhtiyar Khilji was a general of Aibak's. The implication being that he fought to Aibak's plans, that he was instructed by Aibak, that his actions were the execution of orders issued by Aibak

Was'nt the Qutb complex in Delhi commissioned by Aibak, which involved demolition of Jain/Hindu temples? Even if Bakhtiyar had not been handed express orders by his master to ransack Nalanda, I doubt Aibak would have shed a tear considering he himself was an iconoclast.
 
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Was'nt the Qutb complex in Delhi commissioned by Aibak, which involved demolition of Jain/Hindu temples? Even if Bakhtiyar had not been handed express orders by his master to ransack Nalanda, I doubt Aibak would have shed a tear considering he himself was an iconoclast.
Please read Joe's statement above. He did destroy it but had 'Superior Orders'. As for iconoclasm, the destroyed temples don't lie.

The implication being that he fought to Aibak's plans, that he was instructed by Aibak, that his actions were the execution of orders issued by Aibak

bigoted mental posture

Thanks for the kind words. Ok, superior's orders it is. In that case this is a controversial point of view, especially after the Nuremburg tribunals. Of course, I won't impose modern morality to medieval times, but then let's agree to disagree.
 
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