For Paf: How To Invest The $270 Million Saved From The F16 Purchase

[MastanKhan]

simply,
buying a good targeting pod for thunder.
if possible adding a fifth gen air to air missile and possible AESA upgrade with onboard IRST.
getting two more hard points below the fuselage.

Hi,

In order for you to get two more hard points---you need to increase the size of the aircraft---so that its utility can really be utilized to the maximum.

20% increase in size should give you an approximate 150-170% increase in weight carrying ability ie---from 4500KG to around 6500-7500 KG

Streamlined squarish fuel tanks like those on Gripen NG would increase the amount of fuel carried in the fuel tanks by approximately 30% and that carried on the fuselage by around 20 %.

So---this increase in fuel in the fuselage space would allow to fly a little longer during combat once the tanks are jettisoned.

The fuel tanks can be designed in two sizes-----a regular size like that in the Gripen NG and one half that size----all streamlined squarish design.

The one that is half that size---would go on the wings---and would have hard points to carry munitions---remember just like the french had for the mirages----like two bvr's hanging from each tank---they will the first ones to be launched in combat---and they will ignite once ejected off from the hard point on the fuel tank.

The solutions are there for pakistan air force---it just needs to get its head out of the sand and say goodbye to the new F16's.

I charge 25-30% for giving out a strategy to big clients....PAF seems like a few hundred million worth client in this case. So if I get even 15% of the $ 300 million (with 15% fat discount), I would be happy to create a strategy for the PAF . This is a great deal with very minimal margin to my org you know


On the issue of what to do? Lease a squadron of the latest J-10C's to get acquainted with them. See if this jet has any serious fit, otherwise it would help fill up the gaps right away and the training won't be too difficult as the PAF's been operating much more complex 2ng gen Mirages with delta wings. If the PAF likes the next version of this jet, get it with TOT and call it the JFT block IV!!

Also put investments into J-31 tech miniaturization project and start producing stuff in Pakistan slowly. This tech should then be put into turning the future JFT block 5 into a Stealthy one. If some money is left, invest / JV with Turkey, Italy, Russia or South Africa into getting (preferably with some or all TOT) longer range SAAM and medium to long range AAM's.

This way, from SAAMs to advance BVR's to the JFT block IV as a heavier platform, will all be produced internally to the majority of degree, saving billions in the long run and growing the internal industry.

Maybe I should ask you to look for a job for me---here I am giving free advice---hehn----,

 

[Genghis khan1]

The J31 is already flying for awhile now----. The 20 has gone into production phase if I am not wrong---. All equipment and systems tested would be utilized on the J31---the chinese engine has already been given the go ahead for production I believe----.

So---I don't see why pakistan would wait for 10-15 years to get the Turkish aircraft---whereas the J31 could be available in the next 5-7 years.

Buying do no good to Pakistan, Pakistani engineers and defense industry. We pay china, they do the research, they keep the research data and just give us the product. Chinese are not even offering their first best (J-20). Why should we buy a second best instead of joining hands with Turkey and creating our own beast. Turkey will be receiving F-35 few years down the road. They will try to get whatever knowledge they can get out of F-35 experience and will incorporate into their stealth jet. Turks are good at it. Eurojet is helping them with advance engine. It may take 3 or 5 years more for our stealth jet to come out, but it will be lot better, based on western technology. We will have engine technology that China is still having trouble with, which we can use for our future jets. Our first generation of truly capable aeronautical engineers and scientist will be trained. We will have super-computer and experties to build our own research for future. We will have loads of research data on material and aerodynamic sciences even for our space program. Our engineers can use their expertise to create beast out of JF-17 block XX without China's help.

 

[MastanKhan]

How about joining Turkey in their 5 Gen TFX project by investing $300 million into a Super-computer for materials and aerodynamic research work. Paying China to do our work will yield nothing in the long run.

Hi,

You really surprised me with this post. Pakistan's industry is not capable of producing fighter aircraft.

For Turkey---it would be a massive commitment to partner with pakistan for the TFX---get the goodies from the west and give them to pakistan??????? That is impossible.

The west may not be as obliging as Turkey. You cannot take the risk---Pakistan and china are joined at the hip---so who is there for me more---my neighbor or someone 2000 miles away.

China is a time tested friend---thru thick and thin---should I set him aside to please a muslim brother just for the sake of it---absolutely not---.

My living---and my death is attached to my neighbor---. Who is there first when someone dies in your house----your neighbor or your uncle living a 1000 miles away.

Never forget---that all the chinese fighter aircraft tech is directed towards countering the U S----pakistan will get everything by default----.

All chinese weapons would be free of kill switches---. all western equipment would have the fear of kill switches---.

The chinese program is way ahead of the Turks----their aircraft has not even been produced as of now---.

Ever heard of ---a bird in hand is better than two in the bush.

China is pakistan's iron brother---you have a carte blanche to everything that you need---so why?

Buying do no good to Pakistan, Pakistani engineers and defense industry. We pay china, they do the research, they keep the research data and just give us the product. Chinese are not even offering their first best (J-20). Why should we buy a second best instead of joining hands with Turkey and creating our own beast. Turkey will be receiving F-35 few years down the road. They will try to get whatever knowledge they can get out of F-35 experience and will incorporate into their stealth jet. Turks are good at it. Eurojet is helping them with advance engine. It may take 3 or 5 years more for our stealth jet to come out, but it will be lot better, based on western technology. We will have engine technology that China is still having trouble with, which we can use for our future jets. Our first generation of truly capable aeronautical engineers and scientist will be trained. We will have super-computer and experties to build our own research for future. We will have loads of research data on material and aerodynamic sciences even for our space program. Our engineers can use their expertise to create beast out of JF-17 block XX without China's help.

Sir,

The J20 is out of our league for the next 10 years time----. We are having a hard enough time integrating 4th gen technology.

The chinese already have the F35 physical technology---for the electronics they will be at par within the next 5 years.

What do you mean by getting the best and not the second best----. That kind of statement shows a lack of understanding.

The answer is right in front of your face---don't you know what happened when pakistan picked up the best ( the F 16 ) and dropped the supposed second best----the mirage 2000 for the indians---!!!!!

Sometimes the second best is the best deal---because the best is your trump card that you can use later.

The J31 with a quality heavy strike aircraft combo is the best and most efficient option for pakistan---.

The strike aircrat can be the JH7B---the J16---or the BLK4 type that I proposed above.

 

[Genghis khan1]

Hi,

You really surprised me with this post. For Turkey---it would be a massive commitment to partner with pakistan for the TFX---get the goodies from the west and give them to pakistan.

The west may not be as obliging as Turkey. You cannot take the risk---Pakistan and china are joined at the hip---so who is there for me more---my neighbor or someone 2000 miles away.

China is a time tested friend---thru thick and thin---should I set him aside to please a muslim brother just for the sake of it---absolutely not---.

My living---and my death is attached to my neighbor---. Who is there first when someone dies in your house----your neighbor or your uncle living a 1000 miles away.

Never forget---that all the chinese fighter aircraft tech is directed towards countering the U S----pakistan will get everything by default----.

All chinese weapons would be free of kill switches---. all western equipment would have the fear of kill switches---.

The chinese program is way ahead of the Turks----their aircraft has not even been produced as of now---.

Ever heard of ---a bird in hand is better than two in the bush.

China is pakistan's iron brother---you have a carte blanche to everything that you need---so why?

India is also our neighbor. we are not riding horses anymore, 2000 miles logic doesn't hold much weight .it's not about muslim brother, neither I buy this Iron brother rhetoric. Both Turkey and China are our good friend. Chinese are not running anywhere. We can't just put all egg in on basket. Main idea is that it's time we learn this trade. Chinese never bother to ask for our partnership. Turkey would not have asked Pakistan if there were a substantial risk of jeopardizing the project or our partnership. World is willing to sell, if not US, atleast Europeans. Turks are not buy or stealing data, they are learning, so will we. Their defense industry had made tremendous stride in self reliance, unlike Pakistan were we get two or three things under TOT and call it our own.

 

[CHACHA"G"]

Hello All
@MastanKhan a good thread Sir , And goo to read different thoughts about this.
My take on this is,
Just say we have 300m$$ divide them in half , First 150M$$ are for JF17 Block 4' R&D Upgrade its Airframe , Increase the size of the bird , Bring wheals out side (Gripen NG) , Have a newer Better Engine , Use More composite Material , I will add even Use RAM (radar avoidance or absorbent Material) , Buy New and better EW suit and better avionics and try to get Next or latest Gen Missiles for our ne Bird , etc ,
Second 150m$$ , There Utility should be making things in our bird as many of them as we can at home, Like BVRs , VWR, And Advance Pods , Material Factory (for airframe)
The upgrades are done then our JF17 will be advance mini stealth bird even better then F16 in many aspects.
Thank You

 

[MastanKhan]

India is also our neighbor. we are not riding horses anymore, 2000 miles logic doesn't hold much weight .it's not about muslim brother, neither I buy this Iron brother rhetoric. Both Turkey and China are our good friend. Chinese are not running anywhere. We can't just put all egg in on basket. Main idea is that it's time we learn this trade. Chinese never bother to ask for our partnership. Turkey would not have asked Pakistan if there were a substantial risk of jeopardizing the project or our partnership. World is willing to sell, if not US, atleast Europeans. Turks are not buy or stealing data, they are learning, so will we. Their defense industry had made tremendous stride in self reliance, unlike Pakistan were we get two or three things under TOT and call it our own.

Thank you for your comments.

 

[Genghis khan1]

Thank you for your comments.

Sir, your post is full of over-optimistic assumptions and mumbo jumbo analogies and you called my reply Bull...

 

[Hakikat ve Hikmet]

Hi,

The current cost of the F16 BLK 52 is somewhere between $40-45 million a piece---50 mil at the most. The 90 million is a 5 years spare parts package included---in which around 20-25 million is a hidden charge that will go back to the U S govt for any black projects.

So---their own money and some of ours will be diverted for the kinky stuff.

Now as the level of threat is increasing in the south china seas---the price of the J10C is coming down as well----. In last february---they were on offer of 1 sqdrn for immediate delivery from existing stock----and payments on soft loans---which could also mean something minimal. The level of chinese anxiety is increasing as to the increase in U S presence in that area---.




Hi,

The J31 is already flying for awhile now----. The 20 has gone into production phase if I am not wrong---. All equipment and systems tested would be utilized on the J31---the chinese engine has already been given the go ahead for production I believe----.

So---I don't see why pakistan would wait for 10-15 years to get the Turkish aircraft---whereas the J31 could be available in the next 5-7 years.

Reis Erdogan is in no mood to take a "NO" for an answer. Just yesterday he has fired the PM, one of his most trusted and loyal colleagues, for going little soft and slow. So, 15 years may be little over stretched since the plan is to introduce by 2025. I won't be surprised if an advanced prototype flies by 2023, the100th anniversary of the republic. Turkish companies have gained experience from building F16s since late 80s and working extensively on various F35 subsystems. Cooperation with SAAB and BAE are off course there. Work on EW and radars are going in parallel. As if these humongous amount of funds are coming from Gayib. I have become dumbfounded seeing the determination, motivation and ambition of the present day Turkish engineers. Where have they got it from? I've got no clue...

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

Option 1:
Deposit and Intent for joint J-31 program , Stealth plane : Deposit 270 Million Dollars


Option 2:
Put money in bank for 1-2 years till it becomes 1 Billion

 

[ziaulislam]

Hi,

In order for you to get two more hard points---you need to increase the size of the aircraft---so that its utility can really be utilized to the maximum.

20% increase in size should give you an approximate 150-170% increase in weight carrying ability ie---from 4500KG to around 6500-7500 KG

Streamlined squarish fuel tanks like those on Gripen NG would increase the amount of fuel carried in the fuel tanks by approximately 30% and that carried on the fuselage by around 20 %.

So---this increase in fuel in the fuselage space would allow to fly a little longer during combat once the tanks are jettisoned.

The fuel tanks can be designed in two sizes-----a regular size like that in the Gripen NG and one half that size----all streamlined squarish design.

The one that is half that size---would go on the wings---and would have hard points to carry munitions---remember just like the french had for the mirages----like two bvr's hanging from each tank---they will the first ones to be launched in combat---and they will ignite once ejected off from the hard point on the fuel tank.

The solutions are there for pakistan air force---it just needs to get its head out of the sand and say goodbye to the new F16's.




Maybe I should ask you to look for a job for me---here I am giving free advice---hehn----,

well, even without increasing the size, it can add a pod hard point under the second air intake, it has gun pod under the first one, which if can be repositioned somewhere else be part of second hard point, thats what happened in gripen. range-increase in pay load will be good but not as important as adding more hardpoints for precision pods/ew pods

 

[Basel]

Hi,

The current cost of the F16 BLK 52 is somewhere between $40-45 million a piece---50 mil at the most. The 90 million is a 5 years spare parts package included---in which around 20-25 million is a hidden charge that will go back to the U S govt for any black projects.

So---their own money and some of ours will be diverted for the kinky stuff.

Now as the level of threat is increasing in the south china seas---the price of the J10C is coming down as well----. In last february---they were on offer of 1 sqdrn for immediate delivery from existing stock----and payments on soft loans---which could also mean something minimal. The level of chinese anxiety is increasing as to the increase in U S presence in that area---.




Hi,

The J31 is already flying for awhile now----. The 20 has gone into production phase if I am not wrong---. All equipment and systems tested would be utilized on the J31---the chinese engine has already been given the go ahead for production I believe----.

So---I don't see why pakistan would wait for 10-15 years to get the Turkish aircraft---whereas the J31 could be available in the next 5-7 years.

Dear you have forgotten the statement of Defense Minister in which he had said that we have 2 squadron strength jets in Chna and our Pilots are mastering them since some time and will be available in any emergency. After that it was rumored that 36 J-10s are now available to PAF.

 

[ali_raza]

mastan sir great effort.i would say this 270 million should be invested in PAC kamra make some new labs of international standard.fech some talent from abroad and from local universities. in some years we will be flying somethings far more cutting edge.anyway what about UCAVs

 

[MastanKhan]

Sir, your post is full of over-optimistic assumptions and mumbo jumbo analogies and you called my reply Bull...

Hi,

If you cannot understand----I cannot help.

 

[SBD-3]

How about joining Turkey in their 5 Gen TFX project by investing $300 million into a Super-computer for materials and aerodynamic research work. Paying China to do our work will yield nothing in the long run.

These TFX and KFX/XFX are ultimately going to turn into off the shelf purchase of JSF.

 

[MastanKhan]

Dear you have forgotten the statement of Defense Minister in which he had said that we have 2 squadron strength jets in Chna and our Pilots are mastering them since some time and will be available in any emergency. After that it was rumored that 36 J-10s are now available to PAF.

Hi,

My understanding is that the 18 was part of that package that were offered to pakistan earlier last year and the paf refused.

This guy Sohail Aman has major issues---he is a very tactless man---he has no strategy and no game plan---.

He is the one who screwed up the F16 purchase---basically he threatened the U S last year----. You never threaten the U S----it does not pay back.

As for the defence minister---i don't know what he meant---he might have just meant that there are pakistani pilots training with the chinese---I do not know.