FLY-BY-WIRE F-15SA MAKES FIRST FLIGHT

[Mosamania]

It appears most people are still so hold on to the beliefs that the Saudi military of 20 years ago is still the sane today. I say we just have to wait for a war to prove things once and for all, instead of "Veterans talking of the old old days."

 

[gambit]

It appears most people are still so hold on to the beliefs that the Saudi military of 20 years ago is still the sane today. I say we just have to wait for a war to prove things once and for all, instead of "Veterans talking of the old old days."

Based on my contacts' opinions, the Saudi Air Force is still as incompetent today as it was in my old days.

 

[Mosamania]

Based on my contacts' opinions, the Saudi Air Force is still as incompetent today as it was in my old days.

And based on MY contacts, Saudi air force is a thousand league better and more professional today than it was 7 years ago.

 

[AUSTERLITZ]

It appears most people are still so hold on to the beliefs that the Saudi military of 20 years ago is still the sane today. I say we just have to wait for a war to prove things once and for all, instead of "Veterans talking of the old old days."

Most americans/european personnel there say saudiization failed.


'' Lets talk about the Saudi-ization plan, and how Al Salam is an Saudi owned company, so its no wonder they beat out foreign competitors. Only one problem. Saudi-ization doesnt work, because the Saudis are inherently lazy and under-trained to do the needed work. Hey, sorry but I call a spade a spade. I have worked a couple of contracts in Arabia, one during Gulf War 1 for Lear and the next being shortly post 9/11 and I was amazed at how downhill the RSAF had gone. I worked both contracts at Kang Fahad A.F.B. Taif close to the Al Hadda mountain range, one of the most beautiful spots in Arabia. My second contract I worked as a ParaRescue/PJ Instructor for the 9th Helicopter Flying Wing. I was contracted thru Agusta Helicopter and worked quite a bit with Bell Helicopter at the same base. Al Salam took over the contract from Agusta and won some other contracts as well. When they took over these contracts they re-hired the same american and philipino civilian contractors that where working there before. So to say Saudias are doing the work is completely mis-leading number one. Number 2: The RSAF is in a shambles. Try to think of it this way. The war fighting capabilities of the RSAF are directly proportionate to the number of american and british contractors that work there, or where working there. Why are there less foreign contractors there now? You know the answer RSAF...Saudization Plan. You sound like the Saudi diplodunks promoting how great it is working there, where as in reality, the whole program is a farce. My last contract I arrived Jan. 02 just after 9/11 and was shocked at what I saw compared to 91 when I had left after GW1. F-5s and F-15s mostly in shambles and being robbed for parts. Many parked on the tarmac in a state of total dis-repair and many with missing parts. Why were they being robbed for parts? Becuase thier credit line with MD (McDonnel Douglas) and many other aircraft parts suppliers are maxed out. They are notting getting the credit they used to, and are short of money for the parts. I was also told that the parts suppliers who also supplied the contact repair personnel were not exactly happy about being booted out of thier contracts either, and arent in any big hurry to ship parts there. This is verbatem info I recieved from a skeleton crew of american aircraft repair techs, brought in by Al Salam. Evidenced and witnessed by moi.... F-5s on the ramp with no tires. Aircraft that had tires were so threadbare they would only fly them once or twice a week. The next 10 months I was there I only saw two F-15s fly once!! The base looks like its in mothballs, a deserted ghost-town. Except for alot of troops marching around, then hiding Allah knows where during the day. The only time I would see to many of them is when they would come out to the base commanders cheering rallies supporting the downing of the twin towers. Yes, our allies hard to believe. It was about that time I knew these would probably be my last days in Arabia. The best aircraft on the base where our Helos, UH-1s(bell 212`s) and being upgraded to 412`s (better avionics package & exterior winch for rescue) and even these spent most of thier time downed. The missions we did fly were rarely more than 10 miles from the base!! When I questioned pilots why, I usually recieved the same answer. We dont want to get lost. Huh??? What stuck me as funny was how these pilots always seemed so arrogant and sometimes indigent with me. We could start a whole other thread on the in-correct attitudes and Arab mentality when it comes to Arab military command. The commanders thrive on fear and putting that into the troops.... well, I dont want to go off on a side rant, but believe me, it takes some getting used to and adjusting to work with Arab officers on a daily basis. By the way, the BA compound had the best damn homeade dark beer I ever tasted. Crafty guys....''

''The RSAF themselves, well they are like everyone has posted, nothing has changed. They pencil whip every thing, they do not follow Tech Data, they can't fix anything; it's like it is to complicated for them which it probably is. Most can't read english. Most hired now can't even read their own language and im not saying this out of disrespect. This is what you get with a un educated society. And yes most are not all there. I've seen RSAF just sit there with parts on the ground and have no clue, they wait for the contractor to come and help out, and this is the majority. They came straight from where ever. They act the same way as they alway's have, the elisted corp's all of whom want to be in charge from a two striper and up but dont know jack. And not willing to learn. It's just the way it is. Thats why nothing ever gets done or done correctly. It's hard for the contractor to get things done when they tech out vital jobs such as A.G.E , LOX plants, I.M. Shops, Production, ect. ect. Guess they haven't figured out a way to tech out flight line cause they haven't done it, probably cause the fear something bad would happen. They all leave at 4 not counting tea time and prayer. So there is no support. RSAF headquater's know this ''

 

[Mosamania]

Most americans/european personnel there say saudiization failed.


'' Lets talk about the Saudi-ization plan, and how Al Salam is an Saudi owned company, so its no wonder they beat out foreign competitors. Only one problem. Saudi-ization doesnt work, because the Saudis are inherently lazy and under-trained to do the needed work. Hey, sorry but I call a spade a spade. I have worked a couple of contracts in Arabia, one during Gulf War 1 for Lear and the next being shortly post 9/11 and I was amazed at how downhill the RSAF had gone. I worked both contracts at Kang Fahad A.F.B. Taif close to the Al Hadda mountain range, one of the most beautiful spots in Arabia. My second contract I worked as a ParaRescue/PJ Instructor for the 9th Helicopter Flying Wing. I was contracted thru Agusta Helicopter and worked quite a bit with Bell Helicopter at the same base. Al Salam took over the contract from Agusta and won some other contracts as well. When they took over these contracts they re-hired the same american and philipino civilian contractors that where working there before. So to say Saudias are doing the work is completely mis-leading number one. Number 2: The RSAF is in a shambles. Try to think of it this way. The war fighting capabilities of the RSAF are directly proportionate to the number of american and british contractors that work there, or where working there. Why are there less foreign contractors there now? You know the answer RSAF...Saudization Plan. You sound like the Saudi diplodunks promoting how great it is working there, where as in reality, the whole program is a farce. My last contract I arrived Jan. 02 just after 9/11 and was shocked at what I saw compared to 91 when I had left after GW1. F-5s and F-15s mostly in shambles and being robbed for parts. Many parked on the tarmac in a state of total dis-repair and many with missing parts. Why were they being robbed for parts? Becuase thier credit line with MD (McDonnel Douglas) and many other aircraft parts suppliers are maxed out. They are notting getting the credit they used to, and are short of money for the parts. I was also told that the parts suppliers who also supplied the contact repair personnel were not exactly happy about being booted out of thier contracts either, and arent in any big hurry to ship parts there. This is verbatem info I recieved from a skeleton crew of american aircraft repair techs, brought in by Al Salam. Evidenced and witnessed by moi.... F-5s on the ramp with no tires. Aircraft that had tires were so threadbare they would only fly them once or twice a week. The next 10 months I was there I only saw two F-15s fly once!! The base looks like its in mothballs, a deserted ghost-town. Except for alot of troops marching around, then hiding Allah knows where during the day. The only time I would see to many of them is when they would come out to the base commanders cheering rallies supporting the downing of the twin towers. Yes, our allies hard to believe. It was about that time I knew these would probably be my last days in Arabia. The best aircraft on the base where our Helos, UH-1s(bell 212`s) and being upgraded to 412`s (better avionics package & exterior winch for rescue) and even these spent most of thier time downed. The missions we did fly were rarely more than 10 miles from the base!! When I questioned pilots why, I usually recieved the same answer. We dont want to get lost. Huh??? What stuck me as funny was how these pilots always seemed so arrogant and sometimes indigent with me. We could start a whole other thread on the in-correct attitudes and Arab mentality when it comes to Arab military command. The commanders thrive on fear and putting that into the troops.... well, I dont want to go off on a side rant, but believe me, it takes some getting used to and adjusting to work with Arab officers on a daily basis. By the way, the BA compound had the best damn homeade dark beer I ever tasted. Crafty guys....''

''The RSAF themselves, well they are like everyone has posted, nothing has changed. They pencil whip every thing, they do not follow Tech Data, they can't fix anything; it's like it is to complicated for them which it probably is. Most can't read english. Most hired now can't even read their own language and im not saying this out of disrespect. This is what you get with a un educated society. And yes most are not all there. I've seen RSAF just sit there with parts on the ground and have no clue, they wait for the contractor to come and help out, and this is the majority. They came straight from where ever. They act the same way as they alway's have, the elisted corp's all of whom want to be in charge from a two striper and up but dont know jack. And not willing to learn. It's just the way it is. Thats why nothing ever gets done or done correctly. It's hard for the contractor to get things done when they tech out vital jobs such as A.G.E , LOX plants, I.M. Shops, Production, ect. ect. Guess they haven't figured out a way to tech out flight line cause they haven't done it, probably cause the fear something bad would happen. They all leave at 4 not counting tea time and prayer. So there is no support. RSAF headquater's know this ''

And forum post of course are the most reliable source of information in the world.

 

[That Guy]

And forum post of course are the most reliable source of information in the world.

Hahaha, nice reply. Actually made me chuckle.

 

[Munir]

I have spoken almost to a UAE mirage 2000 pilot... Indeed. Unrealistic.

 

[Safriz]

Saudis have some serious gear.

American gear which will be as useless as a sausage if they impose sanctions...

 

[AUSTERLITZ]

And forum post of course are the most reliable source of information in the world.

If everyone is saying this,it can't be all false.What agenda would they have against saudis.And these are people who were actually there,professionals.Not outsiders.

 

[livingdead]

If everyone is saying this,it can't be all false.What agenda would they have against saudis.And these are people who were actually there,professionals.Not outsiders.

do you have any such posts regarding Indian pilots... they sometimes train with...

 

[AUSTERLITZ]

No IAF is generally held in good regard,they rarely if ever talk of IAF because IAF don't operate US aircraft so these guys don't have direct experience with IAF.There was a lot of talk around 2004-2008 cope and red flag exercises.Since then ..no.
They talk much about RSAF coz constant buys,israel factor and regular deployments to SA,sharing their experiences.

 

[gambit]

And based on MY contacts, Saudi air force is a thousand league better and more professional today than it was 7 years ago.

Arguably self serving. We Americans have nothing to gain by simply badmouthing the Saudis out of spite here.

The Saudi Air Force is not a professional service, least of all the pilot corps. The Saudi Air Force is little more than a playground for spoiled princes, of which YOU would know better than anyone here how many of them there are and what they are like. These princes have the attitude that at least the Saudi society, if not the world, revolves around them. It is a 'privilege' for us foreigners to be around them, let alone teach them anything.

If any prince, no matter how dubious the familial tie to the Royal Family, is ignorant of anything, it is because he is too important and too busy with other things, therefore, we foreign instructors should know our place and teach them shortcuts so they can get on with the kingdom's business. Standards are lowered. Mistakes are corrected by others, not by the person who made the mistake, because self corrections are beneath a prince. Exams are typically pencil whipped. Schedules are usually ignored. Sh1tty radio discipline. Jets are flown poorly trimmed, costing fuel and create delays. In-flight emergency (IFE) calls are capricious and usually unwarranted by our standards.

Code 1, Code 2, Code 3, Code 4, Code 5 | Aviation Glossary

Code 1, Code 2, Code 3, Code 4, Code 5

Landing status codes used by aircrew to inform maintenance of their inbound aircraft’s condition. A Code 1 aircraft has no additional discrepancies other than those it had when it last departed; a code 2 aircraft has minor discrepancies, but is capable of further mission assignments; a code 3 aircraft has major discrepancies in mission-essential equipment that may require repair or replacement prior to further mission tasking; a code 4 indicates suspected or known nuclear, biological, or chemical contamination; and a code 5 indicates battle damage. Codes 4 and 5 are entered into the MIS as code 8.

I have seen an external wing tank that failed to transfer written up as 'BATTLE DAMAGE'...!!!

No respect for the maintainers, least of all for their own Saudi countrymen. I suspect that it has more to do with the knowledge that most Saudi enlisted do not want to be wherever they are and have a poor attitude towards their jobs, so these princes are leery of any Saudi enlisted personnel even washing the jets. They know that despite the foreigners being technically mercenaries in the employ of the Saudi government, at least these mercenaries came from a superior military, have superior work ethics, and therefore worth their salary.

May be the Saudi Air Force have matured some since then, but not from testimonies I received.

 

[Mosamania]

Arguably self serving. We Americans have nothing to gain by simply badmouthing the Saudis out of spite here.

The Saudi Air Force is not a professional service, least of all the pilot corps. The Saudi Air Force is little more than a playground for spoiled princes, of which YOU would know better than anyone here how many of them there are and what they are like. These princes have the attitude that at least the Saudi society, if not the world, revolves around them. It is a 'privilege' for us foreigners to be around them, let alone teach them anything.

If any prince, no matter how dubious the familial tie to the Royal Family, is ignorant of anything, it is because he is too important and too busy with other things, therefore, we foreign instructors should know our place and teach them shortcuts so they can get on with the kingdom's business. Standards are lowered. Mistakes are corrected by others, not by the person who made the mistake, because self corrections are beneath a prince. Exams are typically pencil whipped. Schedules are usually ignored. Sh1tty radio discipline. Jets are flown poorly trimmed, costing fuel and create delays. In-flight emergency (IFE) calls are capricious and usually unwarranted by our standards.

Code 1, Code 2, Code 3, Code 4, Code 5 | Aviation Glossary

I have seen an external wing tank that failed to transfer written up as 'BATTLE DAMAGE'...!!!

No respect for the maintainers, least of all for their own Saudi countrymen. I suspect that it has more to do with the knowledge that most Saudi enlisted do not want to be wherever they are and have a poor attitude towards their jobs, so these princes are leery of any Saudi enlisted personnel even washing the jets. They know that despite the foreigners being technically mercenaries in the employ of the Saudi government, at least these mercenaries came from a superior military, have superior work ethics, and therefore worth their salary.

May be the Saudi Air Force have matured some since then, but not from testimonies I received.

I am not saying that any of what you said is true, and lost likely it has been the truth if how things were for a a very long time, however since 2007 the military has received a rehaul, the Air Force being the most. With princes privileges taken out that's one.

Second of all most princes now hate serving in the military because they are treated like everyone else, sure the issue that it is still easier for them to climb the promotion scale than others exist which is one if the few things I am still antsy about.

Right now most people working for the Air Force are regular people like you and me, they run things and they are heavily trained in the west, back in the day exercises were conducted with foreign air forces like once every 4 to 5 years, right now yearly the Air Force goes through close to 7-8 exercises with foreign air forces per year. You tell me if that doesn't change anything or not.


And I can see you had some really bad experience with Princes, however you must know that 99.9% of the armed forces is not made up of princes, and those boys work as hard as everyone else in the world.

How do I know all of this? I work in an Air Base hospital for starters.