Flashback- PAF evaluating Mirage 2000

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

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@Oscar ... notice how a deal was close to be finalized in 1992, and then not so much in 1994. The only variance (besides time) is Bhutto/PPP. This was exactly the same thing that happened with the Type 214 deal. In 2008 the Germans were prepared to extend export credit/loan, and by 2010-2011, it was dead.

 

[The SC]

In 2012 France approved their sale to Egypt, now we do not know where is that at.. will Egypt get most of them .. that is a big possibility since it operates Mirage-2K itself for a long time, so no problems for the infrastructure.. but will Egypt take all of them, that is the question?

 

[redgriffin]

Hi,

In a similar manner---the Sabre F86 was a better fighter at higher altitude---and the Gnat at lower altitudes---.

Now---where goes the MAN BEHIND THE MACHINE---.

It seems like---if one machine is better than the other---then it is better than the other---the operator cannot do much accordingly---.

But according to the Paf philosophy or claim of fame---THE MAN BEHIND THE MACHINE makes the difference---so where did that claim go in case of the M2K's vs F16's.

Tactics! Exploiting your machine's quirks to their fullest. What else is DACT & aggressor training all about if not that?
Machines aren't the end all be all & neither is the man. It is how the man uses the machine to its fullest. I suggest going to a site called dt.com & reading a sticky thread over there on this a fellow super moderator with actual experience of these things put up back when this forum wasn't even a binary pair.
Read it, might do your ingrained biases good.

 

[ziaulislam]

Had it not been for America's willingness to sell the F-16, I reckon the PAF would have gone the route of a few Mirage 2000s supported by a larger number of Mirage F-1s. Prior to the availability of the F-16, the M2K and Mirage F-1 were listed by the PAF as its lead options. As per Wiki Leaks, the U.S. had even assured the PAF that it would lobby for term financing/loans to make the purchase of said fighters possible.

The good thing about the Mirage F-1 was that it had a good airframe design, but it was relatively under-powered by due the Atar turbojet engines (also used on the Mirage III/5). I think the PAF might have been in the mood to push for the F-1 to be re-engined with a turbofan - i.e. Snecma M53. Buy 1~2 M2K squadrons and pair them up with a higher number of re-engined and upgraded Mirage F-1s.

Having such Mirage F-1s by the 1990s would have negated the need for F-7s. It would have also given a lot more time for the development of an in-house fighter - instead of a lightweight Super-7, the PAF might have gone ahead for a medium-weight design.

likely PAF wouldn't have developed any fighter
when I look at PA,PAF,PN indiginization only occur if we have no other source available. we never really intended to develop home based military industry as turkey, or india tried

This concept is also wrong that french would have given their top tier aircraft to be completely produced in Pakistan. There were no strategic reasons to do so as china had with thunder program.

had Pakistan acquired the mirage2000s in 90s we would have option to acquire more second hand but honestly we all know that french are not good at sellign their stuff cheap, we did great with mirage5, I wounder whether we could have replicated the same success with mirage2000


the mistake our policy makers did in 2000s was to assume USA will not put any sanctions on us, but we failed to comprehend that india would be able to influence USA much more in the future and thus block the potential of sales of miitery equipment

anyway the prime reason why we are not able to get modern fighters is economical and not sanctions from USA. even today I bet you can get all the f-16s you want if you have the money. I wonder in whether france would have offered us mirage 2000 in 2000s when rafale was in full swing. This makes you wonder had we procured some fighters in 1990s and wanted a follow on order, would that have been possible?

 

[CriticalThought]

likely PAF wouldn't have developed any fighter
when I look at PA,PAF,PN indiginization only occur if we have no other source available. we never really intended to develop home based military industry as turkey, or india tried

This concept is also wrong that french would have given their top tier aircraft to be completely produced in Pakistan. There were no strategic reasons to do so as china had with thunder program.

had Pakistan acquired the mirage2000s in 90s we would have option to acquire more second hand but honestly we all know that french are not good at sellign their stuff cheap, we did great with mirage5, I wounder whether we could have replicated the same success with mirage2000


the mistake our policy makers did in 2000s was to assume USA will not put any sanctions on us, but we failed to comprehend that india would be able to influence USA much more in the future and thus block the potential of sales of miitery equipment

anyway the prime reason why we are not able to get modern fighters is economical and not sanctions from USA. even today I bet you can get all the f-16s you want if you have the money. I wonder in whether france would have offered us mirage 2000 in 2000s when rafale was in full swing. This makes you wonder had we procured some fighters in 1990s and wanted a follow on order, would that have been possible?

Agreed. I think everything has turned out for the best. Had we bought into the M2K program, I doubt we would have gone towards indigenization. I doubt a re-engined F-1 would give PAF the experience if taking Block 1 through 6 prototypes, selecting design concepts from world's leading fighter jets. I am amazed people still want to stroll down memory lane when we have the wonderful situation today: first flight of Block 3 in 2018 with full authority digital fbw, aesa, more weapons. Block 4 with stealth design is being considered in China.

What we lack today are:

1. Deep strike into enemy territory.
2. A 360 degree threat to the enemy from North South East and West. India had a SU-30 base in Tajekistan, is buddying up with Oman, and it's aircraft carriers give it options in the South.

In this context, I am against SU-35 because, well, the Indian experience with SU-30 should teach us lessons. Also, India's complex multi-layer air defence means any forays deep into Indian territory must wait for SEAD/DEAD by which time Indians will be bringing the fight to us anyways.

The best option is for a long range plane to fly a radar evading path to hit the enemy from its point of weakness. There are always weaknesses. Such a mission can theoretically be carried out by transport aircraft.

My whole issue with the M2K/SU-30/J-10 debate is the underlying one dimensional mentality of attacking enemy in the east from its Western flank. With this mentality, we have already lost the war.

 

[volatile]

Agreed. I think everything has turned out for the best. Had we bought into the M2K program, I doubt we would have gone towards indigenization. I doubt a re-engined F-1 would give PAF the experience if taking Block 1 through 6 prototypes, selecting design concepts from world's leading fighter jets. I am amazed people still want to stroll down memory lane when we have the wonderful situation today: first flight of Block 3 in 2018 with full authority digital fbw, aesa, more weapons. Block 4 with stealth design is being considered in China.

Hi you made some valid comments but unfortunately your comments failed to answer what happened and how weak Air force resulted in sabotaging some of our strategic interests . Even though i dont agree with Musharaf adventure but a weaker Air force let down troops and changed the face of the conflict .

https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/paf-role-in-kargil-war-by-paf-officer.212481/

What we lack today are:

1. Deep strike into enemy territory.
2. A 360 degree threat to the enemy from North South East and West. India had a SU-30 base in Tajekistan, is buddying up with Oman, and it's aircraft carriers give it options in the South.

That deep strike aircraft was Mirage 2000/5

The best option is for a long range plane to fly a radar evading path to hit the enemy from its point of weakness. There are always weaknesses. Such a mission can theoretically be carried out by transport aircraft.

My whole issue with the M2K/SU-30/J-10 debate is the underlying one dimensional mentality of attacking enemy in the east from its Western flank. With this mentality, we have already lost the war.

Hi when you are sharing 1000 of kilo meters of length and width very less this is near to impossible scenario ,e.g with advent of S400 and range of 400 KM`s technically there is no fly zone all across Pakistan .

Agree or not Leaving Mirage 2000 deal was blunder infact it paved way for Indians to approach French and later Rafale

 

[CriticalThought]

Hi you made some valid comments but unfortunately your comments failed to answer what happened and how weak Air force resulted in sabotaging some of our strategic interests . Even though i dont agree with Musharaf adventure but a weaker Air force let down troops and changed the face of the conflict .

https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/paf-role-in-kargil-war-by-paf-officer.212481/

How about you read threads started by Pakistani professionals rather than Indian trolls:

https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/fiction-of-fulcrum-buzzing-falcon.480871/#post-9256111

https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/kargil-ghosts-still-stalk-indias-military.387987/

That deep strike aircraft was Mirage 2000/5

Official combat radius 830 NM which translates to 1537.16 km. That is actually comparable to JF-17.

http://www.dassault-aviation.com/en/defense/customer-support/operational-aicraft/mirage-2000-2/

Hi when you are sharing 1000 of kilo meters of length and width very less this is near to impossible scenario ,e.g with advent of S400 and range of 400 KM`s technically there is no fly zone all across Pakistan .

Agree or not Leaving Mirage 2000 deal was blunder infact it paved way for Indians to approach French and later Rafale

The French would supply anything for money if the Indians approached them. Just as they already have. And then put you under an arms embargo if you failed to toe the line.

So, you are saying that there will be a no-fly zone across Pakistan because of S-400. How do you expect your mirages to fly then? Do they have some kind of stealth abilities to evade S-400? Definitely not.

 

[volatile]

How about you read threads started by Pakistani professionals rather than Indian trolls:

Instead of posting articles try reading which is fruitful ,bcas of F16 only we were limited to war reserves

http://kaiser-aeronaut.blogspot.com/2009/01/kargil-conflict-and-pakistan-air-force.html

Indian same Mirage 2000 were instrumental in providing air support to its troops ,Pakistan loose Kargil bcas of poor Air force

Official combat radius 830 NM which translates to 1537.16 km. That is actually comparable to JF-17.

Only 25 years late JF17 i wonder for the last 25 years our defense was in ever in good hands

The French would supply anything for money if the Indians approached them. Just as they already have. And then put you under an arms embargo if you failed to toe the line.

The most bizzare comments i ever came across ,French are total opposite to what you describe ,yes they would have offered a seperate platform to Indians if requested but to put embargo by French is the biggest joke i have heard .

So, you are saying that there will be a no-fly zone across Pakistan because of S-400. How do you expect your mirages to fly then? Do they have some kind of stealth abilities to evade S-400? Definitely not.

That will be off topic but your theory of going to XYZ location seems childish

 

[CriticalThought]

Instead of posting articles try reading which is fruitful ,bcas of F16 only we were limited to war reserves

http://kaiser-aeronaut.blogspot.com/2009/01/kargil-conflict-and-pakistan-air-force.html

Indian same Mirage 2000 were instrumental in providing air support to its troops ,Pakistan loose Kargil bcas of poor Air force


Only 25 years late JF17 i wonder for the last 25 years our defense was in ever in good hands

The most bizzare comments i ever came across ,French are total opposite to what you describe ,yes they would have offered a seperate platform to Indians if requested but to put embargo by French is the biggest joke i have heard .


That will be off topic but your theory of going to XYZ location seems childish

Pakistan lost Kargil because of poor and uncoordinated planning.

Our AD has always been in good hands. You can keep wondering what u like.

Regarding French embargo, when the US puts a country under sanctions, all Western nations comply. Including France. The prospect of US not putting us under sanctions during war is the biggest joke ever.

My theory of going to XYZ location? What are u talking about?

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

likely PAF wouldn't have developed any fighter
when I look at PA,PAF,PN indiginization only occur if we have no other source available. we never really intended to develop home based military industry as turkey, or india tried

This concept is also wrong that french would have given their top tier aircraft to be completely produced in Pakistan. There were no strategic reasons to do so as china had with thunder program.

had Pakistan acquired the mirage2000s in 90s we would have option to acquire more second hand but honestly we all know that french are not good at sellign their stuff cheap, we did great with mirage5, I wounder whether we could have replicated the same success with mirage2000


the mistake our policy makers did in 2000s was to assume USA will not put any sanctions on us, but we failed to comprehend that india would be able to influence USA much more in the future and thus block the potential of sales of miitery equipment

anyway the prime reason why we are not able to get modern fighters is economical and not sanctions from USA. even today I bet you can get all the f-16s you want if you have the money. I wonder in whether france would have offered us mirage 2000 in 2000s when rafale was in full swing. This makes you wonder had we procured some fighters in 1990s and wanted a follow on order, would that have been possible?

The PAF was looking to have an in-house fighters since the late 1980s. Back then, the PAF and CAC played with the idea of the Sabre II, a vastly upgraded F-7 with American engine and avionics to replace the F-6s. It didn't work out because the U.S. embargoed China over Tiananmen Square, and the idea was too costly for what it was offering. I was told by several retired PAF officers (including a commonly quoted one) that back then, Dassault offered the Mirage F-1 with local production and a huge stockpile of ATAR turbojet engines.

Anyways, so that it doesn't get lost, my original point was that had the PAF not been able to buy F-16s, it would have gone for a mix of M2K and F-1s. The M2K was pricey then as well (new platform with much less scale than the F-16), but a high-technology system. The PAF might have bought a few of those and then a larger number of F-1s to compliment them.

Yes, the M2K might have solved the high-end fighter need, but the need for a decent low-end fighter to build a fleet would have been elusive regardless of sanctions or no sanctions. On this basis, I think an indigenous fighter would have happened, but it would have been a more sophisticated program since it'd be replacing relatively modern F-1s.

 

[Raider 21]

The PAF was looking to have an in-house fighters since the late 1980s. Back then, the PAF and CAC played with the idea of the Sabre II, a vastly upgraded F-7 with American engine and avionics to replace the F-6s. It didn't work out because the U.S. embargoed China over Tiananmen Square, and the idea was too costly for what it was offering. I was told by several retired PAF officers (including a commonly quoted one) that back then, Dassault offered the Mirage F-1 with local production and a huge stockpile of ATAR turbojet engines.

The F-20 was also offered with a license production of about a 100 aircraft. It was evaluated by Abbas Mirza. However the F-20 got cancelled after two fatal crashes (both company test pilots died due to G-LOC during aerial demonstrations).

 

[CriticalThought]

The PAF was looking to have an in-house fighters since the late 1980s. Back then, the PAF and CAC played with the idea of the Sabre II, a vastly upgraded F-7 with American engine and avionics to replace the F-6s. It didn't work out because the U.S. embargoed China over Tiananmen Square, and the idea was too costly for what it was offering. I was told by several retired PAF officers (including a commonly quoted one) that back then, Dassault offered the Mirage F-1 with local production and a huge stockpile of ATAR turbojet engines.

If it had come to pass, we would still be flying glorified F1s and/or F7s. The whole point being it didn't happen, and history shows it was never really needed. An artificial need can always be engineered, but in reality we have been good and going to become excellent Insha Allah.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

If it had come to pass, we would still be flying glorified F1s and/or F7s. The whole point being it didn't happen, and history shows it was never really needed. An artificial need can always be engineered, but in reality we have been good and going to become excellent Insha Allah.

Sure, but we're just having a discussion here about the past and hypothetical alternatives. I realize it's not everyone's interest area, but this is an online forum with many other threads - some focused on today's news. I like this discussion, so let it be

 

[Thəorətic Muslim]

@Oscar ... notice how a deal was close to be finalized in 1992, and then not so much in 1994. The only variance (besides time) is Bhutto/PPP. This was exactly the same thing that happened with the Type 214 deal. In 2008 the Germans were prepared to extend export credit/loan, and by 2010-2011, it was dead.

The PPP owes their '93 government to the then COAS Kakar...

 

[volatile]

Pakistan lost Kargil because of poor and uncoordinated planning.

-16 CAPs could not have been flown all day long as spares support was limited under the prevailing US sanctions. Random CAPs were resorted to, with a noticeable drop in border violations only as long as the F-16s were on station. There were a few cases of F-16s and Mirage-2000s locking their adversaries with the on-board radars but caution usually prevailed and no close encounters took place. After one week of CAPs, the F-16 maintenance personnel indicated that war reserve spares were being eaten into and that the activity had to be ‘rationalised’, a euphemism for discontinuing it altogether. That an impending war occupied the Air Staff’s minds was evident in the decision by the DCAS (Ops) for F-16 CAPs to be discontinued, unless IAF activity became unbearably provocative or threatening.

Those not aware of the gravity of the F-16 operability problem under sanctions have complained of the PAF’s lack of cooperation. Suffice it to say that if the PAF had been included in the initial planning, this anomaly (along with many others) would have emerged as a mitigating factor against the Kargil adventure. It is another matter that the Army high command did not envisage operations ever coming to such a pass. Now, it was almost as if the PAF was to blame for the Kargil venture spiralling out of control.

Our AD has always been in good hands. You can keep wondering what u like.

http://foreignpolicy.com/2013/07/09/pakistans-air-force-learned-about-the-bin-laden-raid-on-tv/

Regarding French embargo, when the US puts a country under sanctions, all Western nations comply. Including France. The prospect of US not putting us under sanctions during war is the biggest joke ever.

The vacuum that has been created by American embargo in 1965 in Pakistan –was immediately filled by French supply. In military cooperation, Navy and Air Force are the most beneficiaries of the French supplies. Mirages, submarines, mines hunters and helicopters are the significant symbols of cooperation. France proved to be an outlet for Pakistan to achieve and strengthen those areas of its security, which will ignore due to American global political priorities. American always wished to create a mercenary army within South Asia, which they could use for the regional objectives. Until 9/11, Pakistan resisted this use.9 Under the pretext of WOT, they succeeded to get their objective – the army which they failed to use against communism directly will become their tool – against its own people.

http://pu.edu.pk/images/journal/studies/PDF-FILES/Artical-3_v14_no2_13.pdf