Five reasons why Israel is in trouble

[Khan_patriot]

You might want to re-think what you wrote here and consider whether or not it makes sense. This is 2014, not 1974.

And you might want to invest on some Cyclizine, I wrote what I believe and have no need to reconsider anything....

 

[AUz]

Load of bullcrap!!

Barring demographic bomb which is a reality and is greatest existential danger to Israel; rest are the example of counterfactual thinking on part of writer.An example in bad scholarship.



The Change in US priorities from Atlantic to Pacific does not have any bearing on Israel. The author conveniently forgot that Israel was never dependent of US Armed forces for Survival. It's security does not depend on how many Aircraft carrier US have in Atlantic and shifting of 10% of fleet from Atlantic to Pacific is not going to affect Israel's security adversely.

People while bashing Israel forget the source of Israel's power.It does not lie in US but in Israel itself. It is a technologically advanced country which produces one of the most sophisticated weapons in the world, some even more advanced than US and Europe also. It's military supremacy is not eroding because US become nonchalant about middle east affairs.



Barring Saudi Arabia, no other regional, economic or military power is rising and it would take a decade for Saudi's to build an Airforce and even more time to build an Army.While Saudi's have signed mega deals with Americans and Europeans, it would take both Boeing and Eurofighter consortium decades to deliver on their promise and at least 3 year of training for them to become battleworthy.By which time Israel would have F-35 or if USA ditches it, PAK-FA.

Even if none of the next generation purchases fructify , Israel had strong enough Airforce to defend itself

+ It's small geographical size ( 400 Km X 100 Km ) which is a curse for Israel in a land war is an advantage in Air war. Due to it's small size it could literally have a blanket SAM protection of which Israel's Spyder is best for short range and a also an blanket BMD.

The problem with BMD's and SAM is that they are point defense systems and in case of large countries,they could be bypassed and it is economically unfeasible to provide blanket SAM or BMD cover. BUT small size of Israel negates that disadvantage. An invading Airforce would suffer a bloodbath.





Israel face existential crisis but that comes from demographic danger that Arabs would outbreed Jews in Israel.If someone thinks that Camel cavalry of nusra would sack tel-aviv, he is mistaken.

You missed the point..Israel is pretty dandy....pretty strong

But the only problem is...regional superpowers like Turkey are MUCH more powerful now than Israel is and the gap is only increasing.

Here's a hint from article.

When Erdogan took power, Turkey's economy was 54% larger than Israel's.....

Today: Turkey's economy is 300% larger than Israel and its military stronger than Italy, Spain with 60% indigenous capability. And out of 40% remaining, increasingly, Turkish military is getting Eastern military technology like China's FD-2000 air defence system with transfer of technology and Turkish local production..so even in remaining 40%, the clout of West is decreasing.


Iran's has provided lethal weapons to Hamas, Hezbollah..so even they are a challenge to Israel.

Poor little tiny winy Israel is getting squeezed further and further....

Moreover, even demographics are against them. 20% of Israel is already Arab..and if you take West Bank, and Gaza together too--Israel doesn't even remain a Jewish nation anymore

India should not support colonization of another peoples. You should be *against* colonization. But you guys cheer for Israel and Western colonialism. That is why india is seen as the western *** licker by China, and Pakistan etc.

Hope you'll change your policy and will have some self respect for you and your ancestors who fought for freedom from West and were also called "terrorists" by British.

@Contrarian @kaykay

It's military supremacy is not eroding because US become nonchalant about middle east affairs.

It does not have military supremacy to begin with.

Turkish military is superior to Israel. Specially Turkish Navy...

Israel's entire existence is on Meditarranean coast line (Tel Aviv, Haifa etc..90% of Israeli economy on coast)...Turkish Navy will make Israeli economy suffer like hell in any war...

Not to mention the gigantic military muscle of GCC...

Saudi Air Force already has F-15s, Tornadoes, and Eurofighters loaded with every possible weapon out there...

Saudi Combo of F-15s+Tornadoes+Eurofighters is superior to Israeli combo of F-16s and F-15s

PS, Saudi F-15s are far more advanced than Israel's....not to mention, when you take GCC together as a group...GCC even has way,way more sophisticated F-16s than Israel's...80+ F-16Es of UAE along with hundreds of Saudi F-15s networked in E-3 sentry AWACS is already a headache for Israel....and then add Eurofighters (even if one squadron) and Tornadoes..and Israeli Air Power gets knocked out infront of GCC's Air power..

But that is all on paper, there won't be any war...Israelis aren't idiots...

But as I explained above, Israel is getting squeezed.

Iran just announced deployment Multiple Warhead Vehicles on their ballistic missiles...best of luck defending your small airspace against literally thousands of Iranian ballistic missiles equipped with Multiple warhead vehicles...almost an impossible task.

Truth is, Israel used to be the total boss in the region just few decades ago..Today, it will be hesitant to take on Hamas and Hezbollah together since it doesn't have enough maneuvering space left in Middle-East--forget about taking on Iran lol

 

[Informant]

So does the Israeli gov't. The difference is, the Israelis seek a Palestinian state alongside Israel, whereas the official Arab position, reinforced by decades of education enforced by terror against fellow Arabs, is to seek a Palestinian state instead of Israel.

It would be beyond stupid to not consider the state of Israel as a reality. But Israel's govt has to take a bigger step, it will not only increase its standing but also show it to be a bigger person.
By the way the above point you mentioned is only seen being carried forward by Iran. I dont think Arab countries dont accept the reality which is the state of Israel.

 

[Contrarian]

Do you approve all war crimes committed by the Israeli Gov't against the Palestinian civilians?

My personal position is exactly the same as that of GoI.

I deplore Israeli use of excessive/disproportionate force along with forcible evictions. It leads to ridiculous loss of life of civilians and children.

At the same time, I am not blind to the militants using civilians and children as human shields and/or firing between them, to gain international sympathy and deplore use of terrorism against Israel.

There can be no violent solution to this problem. Only non violence by all, will lead to peace.

India should not support colonization of another peoples. You should be *against* colonization. But you guys cheer for Israel and Western colonialism. That is why india is seen as the western *** licker by China, and Pakistan etc.

Hope you'll change your policy and will have some self respect for you and your ancestors who fought for freedom from West and were also called "terrorists" by British.

@Contrarian @kaykay

Read my post above.

Further more. We are against colonization.
We however have faced Islamic terrorism sponsored by our neighbouring country. So on that account, people of India sympathise with Israeli people as well. We have suffered Islamic fanaticism because of our neighbour, we know exactly the pain Israeli's face when bombs go off in their neighbourhoods.

Lastly, Pakistani's have zero say in the matter. Pakistani's are not involved in the issue, they are not party to the dispute. That Pakistan chooses to act more Muslim than Saudi Arabia and kneels when asked to bend by the Arab States. While Indians stand up against any power in the globe when Indian interests are threatened or compromised - from US to Europe to China, Pakistanis even bend over when their own interests are threatened in the name of Arabs. That makes Indians think that Pakistani's are Arab *** lickers and have zero self respect.

I have used terms much like you used, so that hopefully you are better able to understand.

 

[Solomon2]

It would be beyond stupid to not consider the state of Israel as a reality. But Israel's govt has to take a bigger step, it will not only increase its standing but also show it to be a bigger person.

Big steps like withdrawing from the Sinai to secure peace with Egypt? Bigger steps like embracing Yassir Arafat, who was responsible for so many Israeli deaths, back in 1993? Big steps like yielding control of Area A in the West Bank to Arabs? Big steps like working to provide Arabs in Gaza with food and medical services, even during Israeli offensives against Hamas targets?

What "bigger step" are you talking about?

I deplore Israeli use of excessive/disproportionate force along with forcible evictions. It leads to ridiculous loss of life of civilians and children.

I think you've fallen into the trap of pushing a narrative that isn't supported by specifics.

 

[Yzd Khalifa]

My personal position is exactly the same as that of GoI.

I deplore Israeli use of excessive/disproportionate force along with forcible evictions. It leads to ridiculous loss of life of civilians and children.

At the same time, I am not blind to the militants using civilians and children as human shields and/or firing between them, to gain international sympathy and deplore use of terrorism against Israel.

There can be no violent solution to this problem. Only non violence by all, will lead to peace.

Sir,

I'm automatically anti-Hamas and their likes. I appreciate your take and analysis to the whole situation. But would you kindly tell us wether you condemning Israel's act of violence against civilians or not. It just is yes or no question.

 

[Contrarian]

Sir,

I'm automatically anti-Hamas and their likes. I appreciate your take and analysis to the whole situation. But would you kindly tell us wether you condemning Israel's act of violence against civilians or not. It just is yes or no question.

No.

But I get where they come from. You have no idea of the despondency and anger we feel when time and again Pakistani terrorists come on our soil and explode themselves or others. On account of that, even normal Indians wont think twice about shedding Pakistani blood, whether innocent or not. That is the anger we feel.

The answer to whether act of violence against civilians is acceptable even after what I wrote above is a clear - No. But the emotions are understandable - atleast to Indians.

But this leads to a spiral of violence. Israel acts, then terrorists act, then Israel responds. Its become a circle. Now non violence - both by Israel and terrorists is the only solution.

 

[Yzd Khalifa]

No.

But I get where they come from. You have no idea of the despondency and anger we feel when time and again Pakistani terrorists come on our soil and explode themselves or others. On account of that, even normal Indians wont think twice about shedding Pakistani blood, whether innocent or not. That is the anger we feel.

The answer to whether act of violence against civilians is acceptable even after what I wrote above is a clear - No. But the emotions are understandable - atleast to Indians.

But this leads to a spiral of violence. Israel acts, then terrorists act, then Israel responds. Its become a circle. Now non violence - both by Israel and terrorists is the only solution.

Point taken I understand your feelings. We suffered long enough from Al-Qaida's terror, that's why we dislike Hamas, Hezbollah, and their kinds.

May all deceased victims of terror rest in peace wether they were Indians, Israelis, Saudis or whoever. But above all, the Palestinians who face aplenty of acts of violence on both sides.

 

[Solomon2]

...But this leads to a spiral of violence. Israel acts, then terrorists act, then Israel responds. Its become a circle. Now non violence - both by Israel and terrorists is the only solution.

The "spiral of violence" is a myth. The reality is Arab terror, first against their own (which too few outsiders care about to deplore) and then against Israel, followed by Israeli response. What happened after the Israelis cleaned out Gaza a few years back? Nothing, as Hamas was disarmed and the Israelis' purpose was not (and never has been) to commit genocidal violence. There are many, many other examples, going back decades and decades, long before Israel was established.

To equate the two sides as equally culpable is a cop-out, Contrarian.

 

[Contrarian]

The "spiral of violence" is a myth. The reality is Arab terror, first against their own (which too few outsiders care about to deplore) and then against Israel, followed by Israeli response. What happened after the Israelis cleaned out Gaza a few years back? Nothing, as Hamas was disarmed and the Israelis' purpose was not (and never has been) to commit genocidal violence. There are many, many other examples, going back decades and decades, long before Israel was established.

To equate the two sides as equally culpable is a cop-out, Contrarian.

I ask you - what do you think is the solution now Solomon?
I get what the terrorists do. We see it here.

How do you get what you want now. The objective of the citizens of Israel now is to live in peace is it not? How will you achieve peace if the terrorists donot stop. Has military bombing solved the problem?

If not, then you do need a different approach. What is that?

 

[oFFbEAT]

I request Indians not to make snide remarks against Israel,Palestine or Iran.....please stick to the stance the Indian govt. has i.e stay neutral or even better NOT post in such Israel vs Palestine/Iran threads....

 

[Yzd Khalifa]

Hey you What's up?

As always, well-said Anonymus!

I would like to make a few comments on what you've reiterated. I do agree with you on many points you raised though.

Barring demographic bomb which is a reality and is greatest existential danger to Israel; rest are the example of counterfactual thinking on part of writer.An example in bad scholarship.

Agreed. I think that would be one of the most toughest challenges Israel may face on the long-run.

The Change in US priorities from Atlantic to Pacific does not have any bearing on Israel. The author conveniently forgot that Israel was never dependent of US Armed forces for Survival. It's security does not depend on how many Aircraft carrier US have in Atlantic and shifting of 10% of fleet from Atlantic to Pacific is not going to affect Israel's security adversely.

I don't think the Israelis might be left in jeopardy by the US's indifference to act in the ME or its military presence apart from the 6th fleet. But the Israelis heavily depend on the US military, economic aids. Yet, the Israeli Gov't spits in the US's Gov't face on multiple issues

People while bashing Israel forget the source of Israel's power.

The thing is that most people divert their subjectivity in this debate to their emotions and sentiments. However, I don't think Israel should not be criticized or bashed, just because it is Israel.

It does not lie in US but in Israel itself. It is a technologically advanced country which produces one of the most sophisticated weapons in the world, some even more advanced than US and Europe also. It's military supremacy is not eroding because US become nonchalant about middle east affairs.

While Israel might be head and shoulders above technologically compared to other states in the ME, some countries in the EU, but I don't think that Israel's military machine matches the UK or France or Germany, let alone the US. These countries have introduced far superior equipments than what Israel has in its inventory.

Barring Saudi Arabia, no other regional, economic or military power is rising and it would take a decade for Saudi's to build an Airforce and even more time to build an Army.

I don't think we can put Israel in par with KSA. Both countries' have a diametrically different political, economic, and militaries differences. KSA's military machine is solely dedicated for self-defense rather than being an offensive force. Another major difference is that KSA's policies has always been tightened to its own i.e. the more we are isolated from all these kinds of the drama, the better we are.

All 72 Typhoons and 152 F-15SA's will be delivered by the end of 2020.

While Saudi's have signed mega deals with Americans and Europeans, it would take both Boeing and Eurofighter consortium decades to deliver on their promise and at least 3 year of training for them to become battleworthy.

Training has already began for the Typhoon in 2006, and the F-15SA in 2011.

By which time Israel would have F-35 or if USA ditches it, PAK-FA.

They won't buy the PAK-FA, it is impossible. The Israelis get their jets through their military aid package, they can't afford paying off their pocket to the Russians or any other countries.

Another thing is the Israelis also need to train and learn how to operate the F-35s.

Even if none of the next generation purchases fructify , Israel had strong enough Airforce to defend itself

We will be getting the F-35s by 2023 to replace the Tornados as well as the F-15 Eagles.

Load of bullcrap!!

Barring demographic bomb which is a reality and is greatest existential danger to Israel; rest are the example of counterfactual thinking on part of writer.An example in bad scholarship.

The Change in US priorities from Atlantic to Pacific does not have any bearing on Israel. The author conveniently forgot that Israel was never dependent of US Armed forces for Survival. It's security does not depend on how many Aircraft carrier US have in Atlantic and shifting of 10% of fleet from Atlantic to Pacific is not going to affect Israel's security adversely.

People while bashing Israel forget the source of Israel's power.It does not lie in US but in Israel itself. It is a technologically advanced country which produces one of the most sophisticated weapons in the world, some even more advanced than US and Europe also. It's military supremacy is not eroding because US become nonchalant about middle east affairs.

Barring Saudi Arabia, no other regional, economic or military power is rising and it would take a decade for Saudi's to build an Airforce and even more time to build an Army.While Saudi's have signed mega deals with Americans and Europeans, it would take both Boeing and Eurofighter consortium decades to deliver on their promise and at least 3 year of training for them to become battleworthy.By which time Israel would have F-35 or if USA ditches it, PAK-FA.

Even if none of the next generation purchases fructify , Israel had strong enough Airforce to defend itself

+ It's small geographical size ( 400 Km X 100 Km ) which is a curse for Israel in a land war is an advantage in Air war. Due to it's small size it could literally have a blanket SAM protection of which Israel's Spyder is best for short range and a also an blanket BMD.

The problem with BMD's and SAM is that they are point defense systems and in case of large countries,they could be bypassed and it is economically unfeasible to provide blanket SAM or BMD cover. BUT small size of Israel negates that disadvantage. An invading Airforce would suffer a bloodbath.



Israel face existential crisis but that comes from demographic danger that Arabs would outbreed Jews in Israel.If someone thinks that Camel cavalry of nusra would sack tel-aviv, he is mistaken.

 

[Emmie]

Since when did we start supporting terrorism against people?
Lets leave that to the pure lands.

Since 1970-71. Almonds are good for memory, incidentally.

 

[Solomon2]

I ask you - what do you think is the solution now Solomon?

First, you want to ask yourself what problems you're trying to solve, and for whose benefit. Is it for the benefit of Israelis? Arabs? Muslims? Indians?

The objective of the citizens of Israel now is to live in peace is it not? How will you achieve peace if the terrorists donot stop. Has military bombing solved the problem?

Jews like peace. Jews like survival even better. And yes, Israel's bombing of terror targets, and its actions to root out militants, does go a long way towards solving the problem. It creates space for peace to grow, even if the world doesn't see it, or (like the SodaStream factory in the West Bank) misinterprets it.

However, Israel can only take limited steps by itself. The measures to reduce endemic Jew-hatred don't have any relation to Israeli conduct. More has to do with the fact Arabs are educated to hate and murder Jews, especially Israelis, and that much of the world supports this endeavor, either from antisemitic conviction or convenience. Work to change that and I think great progress will come.

 

[Falcon29]

"Jews like peace"

Peace Now: 123% increase in settlement construction in 2013 | +972 Magazine

200 dead in Israel's Gaza strikes - World news - Mideast/N. Africa - Israel-Palestinians | NBC News

..............

http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/opinion/israel-doesn-t-want-peace-1.217576

The moment of truth has arrived, and it has to be said: Israel does not want peace. The arsenal of excuses has run out, and the chorus of Israeli rejection already rings hollow. Until recently, it was still possible to accept the Israeli refrain that "there is no partner" for peace and that "the time isn't right" to deal with our enemies. Today, the new reality before our eyes leaves no room for doubt and the tired refrain that "Israel supports peace" has been left shattered.

It's hard to determine when the breaking point occurred. Was it the absolute dismissal of the Saudi initiative? The refusal to acknowledge the Syrian initiative? Prime Minister Ehud Olmert's annual Passover interviews? The revulsion at the statements made by Nancy Pelosi, the speaker of the U.S. House of Representatives, in Damascus, alleging that Israel was ready to renew peace talks with Syria?

Who would have believed it? A high-ranking U.S. official says Israel wants peace talks to resume and instantly her president "severely" denies the veracity of her words. Is Israel even hearing these voices? Are we digesting the significance of these voices for peace? Seven million apathetic Israeli citizens prove that we are not.

Entire generations grew up here weaned on self-deception and doubt about the likelihood of achieving peace with our neighbors. In our younger days, David Ben-Gurion told us that if he were only able to meet with Arab leaders, he would have brought us peace in his time. Israel has demanded direct negotiations as a matter of principle and Israelis have derived great pride from the fact that their daily focus on "peace" has concealed their state's lofty ambitions. We were told that there was no partner for peace and that the ultimate ambition of the Arabs is to bring about our destruction. We burned the portraits of "the Egyptian tyrant" at our bonfires on Lag Ba'omer, and were convinced that all blame for the lack of peace lied with our enemies.

After that came the occupation, followed by terror, Yassir Arafat, the failed second Camp David Summit and the rise of Hamas to power, and we were sure, always sure, that it was all their fault. In our wildest dreams, we wouldn't have believed that the day would come when the entire Arab world would extend its hand in peace and Israel would brush away the gesture. It would have been even crazier to imagine that this Israeli refusal would have been blamed on not wanting to enrage domestic public opinion.

The world has been turned upside down and it is Israel that stands at the forefront of refusal. The policy of refusal of a select few, a vanguard of the extreme, has now become the official policy of Jerusalem. In his Passover interviews, Olmert will tell us that, "The Palestinians stand at the crossroads of a historic decision," but people stopped taking him seriously a long time ago. The historic decision is ours, and we are fleeing from this crossroads and from these initiatives as if from death itself.

Terror, used as the ultimate excuse for Israeli refusal, only helps Olmert keep reciting, ad nauseum, "If they [the Palestinians] don't change, don't fight terror and don't adhere to any of their obligations, then they will never extract themselves from their unending chaos." As though the Palestinians haven't taken measures against terrorism, as though Israel is the one to determine what their obligations are, as though Israel isn't to blame for the unending chaos Palestinians suffer under the occupation.

Israel makes a point of setting prerequisites and believes it has an exclusive right to do so. But, time and time again, Israel avoids the most basic prerequisite for any just peace - an end to the occupation. Of all the questions asked during his Passover interviews, no one bothered to ask Olmert why he didn't react with excitement to the recent Arab initiatives, without preconditions? The answer: real estate. The real estate of the settlements.

It's not only Olmert who is dragging his feet. A leading figure in the Labor party said last week that "it will take five to 10 years to recover from the trauma." Peace is now no more than a threatening wound, with no one still talking about the massive social benefits it would bring in development, security, freedom of movement in the region and by establishing a more just society.

However, Israel can only take limited steps by itself. The measures to reduce endemic Jew-hatred don't have any relation to Israeli conduct. More has to do with the fact Arabs are educated to hate and murder Jews, especially Israelis, and that much of the world supports this endeavor, either from antisemitic conviction or convenience. Work to change that and I think great progress will come.

Of course, it has nothing to do with the reality on the ground but all about inherent hatred of Jews.

Nobody falls for your lame excuses anymore. You want to take attention off the real aspects that are behind this conflict and that prolong it.