First Tata-made Sikorsky S-92 helicopter airframe flies

[sancho]

I don't want to spoil the party, but all this means is, TATA successfully absorbed the ToT to build the cabin of the S92 in India. It is nothing more than outsourcing parts of the production to lower the costs, nor does TATA has any benefit of developing or producing key parts like the engines, or avionics. HAL is producing frame parts for the F18SH as well, but that doesn't made it easier to develop LCA isn't it?
It's good that Indian companies gets such productions, but as long as these are not co-development / JV as part of an Indian requirement, the foreign manufacturer / country has the most benefits, not India. However, for the long term it improves our industry to handle advanced production lines and get them some more experience that will help for the future.

 

[Zeeshan360]

I think it is similar to outsourcing plus it is just an airframe not a helicopter ..

 

[Contrarian]

Its a start sancho. As they absorb this technology, they will get bold enough to go higher up the value chain and international firms will get confidence as well. It has to start from somewhere.

 

[sancho]

Its a start sancho. As they absorb this technology, they will get bold enough to go higher up the value chain and international firms will get confidence as well. It has to start from somewhere.

That's what I said as well, but it's only a small start for TATA, Indian forces don't gain at all, because that aircraft will not be procured, neither will any critical tech be produced in India, that really would mean an improvement. I don't even think that it's that much of an challenge for TATA to just produce the cabin.
So all in all, we can be happy that TATA makes some money and creats more job in India, but that's it. Compared to FGFA, MTA, Brahmos, Barak8, Maitri SAM, or the possible Kaveri - Snecma co-development, it means nothing. These are game changers for our forces and will bring a huge leap to our indigenous industry!

 

[Capt.Popeye]

I don't want to spoil the party, but all this means is, TATA successfully absorbed the ToT to build the cabin of the S92 in India. It is nothing more than outsourcing parts of the production to lower the costs, nor does TATA has any benefit of developing or producing key parts like the engines, or avionics. HAL is producing frame parts for the F18SH as well, but that doesn't made it easier to develop LCA isn't it?
It's good that Indian companies gets such productions, but as long as these are not co-development / JV as part of an Indian requirement, the foreign manufacturer / country has the most benefits, not India. However, for the long term it improves our industry to handle advanced production lines and get them some more experience that will help for the future.

Of course its just a beginning; and actually its in the nature of a sub-contract. But its a beginning and surely will not be the end of Aerospace manufacture in India.

It reminds me of about 3.5 decades ago; in the automotive sector TVS fasteners got a contract to supply nuts, bolts and assorted fasteners to GM in Detroit. Now complete automobiles are being exported out of India. So like Automobiles, Aerospace will be an incrementally growing industry in India. Mark my words, it will grow at a faster pace than the Automobile sector did. While it will progress through Components, Sub-assemblies, Assemblies to complete products; we can see that the first stages seem to have telescoped rapidly.

To claim that the benefits will be limited is erroneus. The biggest spin-off will the creation of a trained and experienced man-power pool. If the foreign Principal (let us assume) does not transfer the Tech. still the man-power will be available to indigenous ventures; because you can be sure that there will be lateral movement of this human resource. For example, the Engineers/Technicians who will exit the Tata-Sikorsky venture will take their skills and experience to HAL or TAL or Mahindra Aerospace etc. This leap-frog growth in skill-sets can never be achieved only within HAL or even the IITs.

Watch this sector closely in India. Even get ready to invest in it if you can; even if its as a retail investor.

 

[sancho]

The biggest spin-off will the creation of a trained and experienced man-power pool.

Man power to "produce" parts, not to "develop" them and that's the point! You don't need highly qualified scientists to licence produce airframe parts, especially when there are foreigners that show you how to do it. It's the same problem that China faces today, they know how to re-design certain things and have excellent production capabilities, but they still struggle with engine developments, that they have to do on their own.
It would have been waaaaay better if TATA had bought some parts of Volvo AERO or Saab aerospace, because the know how and experience they could have gained that way, would have given us a real alternative to HAL, DRDO and co and that in a short to medium timeframe. TATA could have offered to co-develop AMCA, with such an ammount of input, but with the gain of simple licence production, we can expect the first own development of them only in several years.

 

[Capt.Popeye]

Man power to "produce" parts, not to "develop" them and that's the point! You don't need highly qualified scientists to licence produce airframe parts, especially when there are foreigners that show you how to do it. It's the same problem that China faces today, they know how to re-design certain things and have excellent production capabilities, but they still struggle with engine developments, that they have to do on their own.
It would have been waaaaay better if TATA had bought some parts of Volvo AERO or Saab aerospace, because the know how and experience they could have gained that way, would have given us a real alternative to HAL, DRDO and co and that in a short to medium timeframe. TATA could have offered to co-develop AMCA, with such an ammount of input, but with the gain of simple licence production, we can expect the first own development of them only in several years.

Sancho, you have'nt got it completely yet. Its not about "manpower". Its about "production processes".
"Designs" are important but they can be bought, may be not so much for military application but very easily for civilian application. So that is 'leaf-frog development'. That is precisely the benefit that will accrue to Indian Aerospace at this juncture.

Today China is a major builder of civilian shipping tonnage. Are those ships designed in China? Most of those designs are bought from Naval Architects/Shipyards in the West. That is precisely what the Koreans did as well as the Japanese right upto the 1980s when Japanese shipbuilding ruled the world. But the Marine Diesel Engines for all ships to this very day have been designed in the West. And that is a tech which does not even remotely approach Jet Engine tech! Not a single ship built in China uses an engine designed in China.