First Embraer Lineage 1000 has arrived in Pakistan

Yasser76 · Dec 30, 2020

PAR 5 said:
PIA own existence is at stake, hence keeping the ATR 42 May be temporary as well as the short haul prop flights are generally operated at a loss that is covered via Jet routes profits. In this case however even the PIA jets are internationally grounded. So whichever way you look at it, News is not good for PIA, ATR and PN as well.

No, that is not how this works and is a very simplified understanding of things.

Even of PIA were to cease ATR operations overnight, it would not be detrimental to PN, all it would mean is PN needing to set up engineering, repair and training facilities for ATR. Italian and Turkish Navies have already done this. PN has massive experience with prop planes. PIA facilties are a bonus that makes it cheaper that is all. As mentioned, ATR is one of the most popular commuter planes on earth,

You do not know what you are talking about

Areesh · Dec 30, 2020

PAR 5 said:
PIA own existence is at stake, hence keeping the ATR 42 May be temporary as well as the short haul prop flights are generally operated at a loss that is covered via Jet routes profits. In this case however even the PIA jets are internationally grounded. So whichever way you look at it, News is not good for PIA, ATR and PN as well.

Well if PN replaces ATR due to this reason then that is clear show of incompetence and lack of planning by PN

Disappointing to say the least

Tomcats · Dec 30, 2020

Areesh said:
Well if PN replaces ATR due to this reason then that is clear show of incompetence and lack of planning by PN

Disappointing to say the least

Just playing devils advocate here but to be fair they did not anticipate a global pandemic + CAA incompetence. Although they definitely should've looked ahead to see its viability.

PAR 5 · Dec 30, 2020

Yasser76 said:
No, that is not how this works and is a very simplified understanding of things.

Even of PIA were to cease ATR operations overnight, it would not be detrimental to PN, all it would mean is PN needing to set up engineering, repair and training facilities for ATR. Italian and Turkish Navies have already done this. PN has massive experience with prop planes. PIA facilties are a bonus that makes it cheaper that is all. As mentioned, ATR is one of the most popular commuter planes on earth,

You do not know what you are talking about

PN is already using the Germans for engine overhauls of ATRs. They have recently stopped using PIA because of some major issues with the maintenance quality of PIA for ATRs. Turkish and Italians are not cheap and even more expensive. Money is not growing on trees at NHQ these days. And if I do not know what I am talking about, than let’s wait and see how this balloon bursts in the next few years.

MIRauf · Dec 31, 2020

On another note, how is PN thinking of managing the Maintenance of Lineage 1000 in the future ? In house or third party ?

PS: KAC ( Kuwait Airways ) back in mid 70s had contract with PIA for maintenance of their 707s parts, had to cancel it as the returned product had used parts and the newer parts were never installed that KAC had shipped.

Dreamer. · Dec 31, 2020

PAR 5 said:
PIA own existence is at stake, hence keeping the ATR 42 May be temporary as well as the short haul prop flights are generally operated at a loss that is covered via Jet routes profits. In this case however even the PIA jets are internationally grounded. So whichever way you look at it, News is not good for PIA, ATR and PN as well.

Let's not forget who's responsible for that....primarily the honorable aviation minister of PTI govt. So we all know who the traitors responsible for our troubles are.

Yasser76 · Dec 31, 2020

PAR 5 said:
PN is already using the Germans for engine overhauls of ATRs. They have recently stopped using PIA because of some major issues with the maintenance quality of PIA for ATRs. Turkish and Italians are not cheap and even more expensive. Money is not growing on trees at NHQ these days. And if I do not know what I am talking about, than let’s wait and see how this balloon bursts in the next few years.

Yes, of course, after few years I will chase you up on this post. Grow up. What you are saying is almost the same as saying if Air India stops using 737s than Indian Navy P-8 operations maybe in trouble. It shows an ignorance on a massive level and what is worrying is that other forum users may believe you, so by defualt you dumb down the quality of the forum. PAF/PN/PA all send items abroad for overhaul, Pakistan is not 100% self reliant on every piece of equipment it uses, very few countries are. What about engines on F-16? What about Agusta helicopters? Shall we stop using F-16 too?

Better you read up and try and have an informed opinion, as now next few posts will involve you trying to defend an idiotic position out of pride rather than apologising that you got it wrong and do not know what you are talking about

Bilal Khan (Quwa) · Dec 31, 2020

Yasser76 said:
So much speculation and noise, so little actual facts. PIA are not getting rid of ATR completely. Even if they did PN can still efficiently operate ATRs. Turk Navy operates ATR and yet Turkish Arlines does not. People need to remember ATR is a very very popular plane, there are over 1,500 in service! Spares, support etc will never be an issue for the rest of it's life in PN.

Again, it is not about having Sea Sultans or ATR. Both make an ideal combination. Firstly, as mentioned it is a great sensor platform and can carry equipment that UAVs cannot. Secondly there will be many missions, maybe the majority, where we will not need the weapons and targeting capabilities of a Sea Sultan, mainly anti-piracy, anti-terror, fishiries protection, anti-smuggling, search and rescue. For these we need a cheaper, smaller plane that can identify targets/rescue location and cordinate PN ships. ATR fits that role perfectly.

Really time to end pointless speculation now

Seaspray radar is very big, also ATR has torpedos too. I really cannot think of anything less that Predator UAV that could fill it's role, taking that into account ATR makes perfect sense. Also much more capable than any UAV would be (weapons, lift raft/emergency supplies etc). PN can also even use it for light transport duties.

UAV would need a lot more tine and development before it becomes even close to ATR

I agree re: the ATR-72/RAS-72.

Personally, I think the PN is moving towards a two-tier fleet.

In 'tier-1' you have the Type 054A/P, MILGEM, Jinnah-class, Hangor-class, Khalid-class, and Sea Sultan to take on conventional threats. We won't use them for anything but wartime roles.

In 'tier-2' you have the Yarmouk-class OPVs and possibly a follow-up OPV (or MRV) to carry the bulk of anti-piracy, anti-terror, fisheries protection, SAR, anti-smuggling, and other policing roles. This is where the RAS-72 would fit.

PAR 5 · Dec 31, 2020

Yasser76 said:
Yes, of course, after few years I will chase you up on this post. Grow up. What you are saying is almost the same as saying if Air India stops using 737s than Indian Navy P-8 operations maybe in trouble. It shows an ignorance on a massive level and what is worrying is that other forum users may believe you, so by defualt you dumb down the quality of the forum. PAF/PN/PA all send items abroad for overhaul, Pakistan is not 100% self reliant on every piece of equipment it uses, very few countries are. What about engines on F-16? What about Agusta helicopters? Shall we stop using F-16 too?

Better you read up and try and have an informed opinion, as now next few posts will involve you trying to defend an idiotic position out of pride rather than apologising that you got it wrong and do not know what you are talking about

Listen Junior! I don't have time to argue with ignoramus idiots! So take a hike and continue to believe your fantasy tales. I do not have anything to prove here to dumb baboons like you.

Yasser76 · Dec 31, 2020

PAR 5 said:
Listen Junior! I don't have time to argue with ignoramus idiots! So take a hike and continue to believe your fantasy tales. I do not have anything to prove here to dumb baboons like you.

Thanks for the reply and proving my point.

Cookie Monster · Dec 31, 2020

Yasser76 said:
Thanks for the reply and proving my point.

Bro u r generally level headed in ur posts...
...no need to pick a fight with @PAR 5...he is a great treasure of this forum.
...all he said is that bcuz PIA is letting go of its ATRs...this would increase the previously projected operating costs of PN's ATRs.

...which really isn't that far off from what u r proposing as well(just differently worded). Yes of course PN can make the necessary efforts to maintain the aircrafts without relying on PIA...but that will add to the cost that may have not been previously been accounted for.

In any case...let it go...and hug it out with ur fellow Pakistani brother @PAR 5. It's a new year...new beginning.

Yasser76 · Dec 31, 2020

Cookie Monster said:
Bro u r generally level headed in ur posts...
...no need to pick a fight with @PAR 5...he is a great treasure of this forum.
...all he said is that bcuz PIA is letting go of its ATRs...this would increase the previously projected operating costs of PN's ATRs.

...which really isn't that far off from what u r proposing as well(just differently worded). Yes of course PN can make the necessary efforts to maintain the aircrafts without relying on PIA...but that will add to the cost that may have not been previously been accounted for.

In any case...let it go...and hug it out with ur fellow Pakistani brother @PAR 5. It's a new year...new beginning.

Well said

mingle · Jan 1, 2021

Cookie Monster said:
Bro u r generally level headed in ur posts...
...no need to pick a fight with @PAR 5...he is a great treasure of this forum.
...all he said is that bcuz PIA is letting go of its ATRs...this would increase the previously projected operating costs of PN's ATRs.

...which really isn't that far off from what u r proposing as well(just differently worded). Yes of course PN can make the necessary efforts to maintain the aircrafts without relying on PIA...but that will add to the cost that may have not been previously been accounted for.

In any case...let it go...and hug it out with ur fellow Pakistani brother @PAR 5. It's a new year...new beginning.

That's case PN should look third party who interested in these ATRs so PN can induct small Jett stations

Cookie Monster · Jan 1, 2021

mingle said:
That's case PN should look third party who interested in these ATRs so PN can induct small Jett stations

If selling those and acquiring other planes(preferably ones that Pak already operates in some capacity and has maintenance/repair facilities) is to be looked at...
...I already suggested in one of my earlier posts to sell these to Italy or Turkey(since they have similar ones) or even some other third country...
...and use that money to buy subsystems(while the subsystems are being purchased for LRMPA) and integrate them on SAAB 2000s(since PAF already operates those).

See Post #122