Finally Deal for Ka-226T Announced by Indian PM, Make In India takes off

[PARIKRAMA]

Whole night I waited tobsee details which are partially disclosed which indicates that certain things are lot more clear..

Reliance tie up with USC crucially indicates the talwar class story in pipavav against to my liking of getting a quick induction of existing semi finished ones from Russia directly

Again Reliance defense tieup with Antley indicates abmuch more detailed deal for AD systems with a scope of larger systems under MII which I had said before that is planned for phase 2. A article which states 4 systems in four directions around Delhi is a hogwash... Practically Delhi will never be top 5 target.. It's actually ridiculous to feel that Moscow with centralised command center having multiple S400 in regiment form protecting is being duplicated with 5 batteries based around Delhi when there is no similarity of structure.

Again by evening a publication like India Today who were first to break story about K series Missile and are respected publication indicated all is not well in FGFA camp. TBH HAL statement of progress being made in FGFA even before any summit discussion starting was a bit fishy to me.. I mean if FGFA progress is really there the first person to confirm would have been DM MP himself as that project is essentially a MII top showcase...unfortunately if the case is true the ramifications are much larger as tech for AMCA is gone kaput and in house development would mean at least 2 decades in R&D.... The solution would be first more interim Rafales and finally signing agreements with USA and F35s.. At least that's what I see.. And India becoming a much stronger non NATO ally with UK Australia Japan like access or perhaps even more.. Geopolitical implications gonna be huge.

The new 636 subs and the Nsub program are again with no information. Yday I got a new view that IN folks are not very perceptive of what in public it is being discussed about N subs from Russia. The talks of Yasen actually is not fully correct rather Yasen technologies is the reality. You see IN is clear that having SSN as Akula 2 and SSBN arihant later improved Arihant types and a new indigenously built SSN itself implies 3 aub program having 3 different sub crew training. Now Yasen induction would complicate it to 4 training programs for crew, a logistics nightmare as a new place within a shipyard gas to develop for Yasen home and basic shore facilities.. The reality was and is that Akula 2 lease had taught us that Russian SSN that has come does have some legacy tech which is inferior to IN desire primarily the sonar part where a spherical sonar was desired. That's why Arihant has USHUS and Yasen Borei all are having new advanced sonar and other technologies. IN desired such Hi tech for the second N sub lease so desire was either upgrade Kashalot implying more cost or make it in IRBIS implying wait for more time. The talks discussed about a stronger role of Russian and such Yasen Borei derived tech in domestic SSN SSBN projects... So its difficult to expect NaMo to pull this out with just one meeting..

True NaMo is expected to make things happen but Russia case is now similar to French case in our deals.. The public reaction for Rafales cost numbers MII was a honest reflection.. Now the same is being applied to Russians. Twitter war on NaMo visit failure is a strong indication of high expectations and results being not in sync..

Perhaps time has come to stop talking defense too much in public domain and do only when deal is done..

Long post.. @Abingdonboy not a very good Christmas and new year as per present information for Indian defense..
BTW a quick update in a interesting thing.. In sputnik news a headline in first page does not mention much about NaMO visit but headline article is this
Pakistan Joins Russia, Condemns Any Attempts to Topple Assad in Syria / Sputnik International

Is this an I indication? Why NaMo visit coverage is limited as compared to this article which came up sharp around 10PM IST.. Conspiracy theory???

 

[Jai Bharat]

They have several heli programs already.. I dont know why they stack another on top of their plate. This contract could have been perfect for Reliance's upcoming aerospace SEZ.

Kamov was chosen for two reasons:

1. Need of a light utility helicopter, and HAL LUH is not yet ready/can't be produced fast enough.

2. To obtain technology for co-axial helicopters.

I doubt HAL or DRDO are very far in the #2 area, and so they want to buy the technology from Russia to study it for future indigenous designs. The problem here is that MoD is still very insecure about handing off sensitive and high technology to the private sector, and still prefers using the Defence PSUs. This of course makes India the only major country in the world to still rely mostly on publicly held companies, as even China and Russia have mostly privatized their military industrial complex.

As for the technology, co-axials are the future. For the new American program to replace ALL (UH-60 Black Hawk, Apache, Kiowa, Chinook) the major helicopters into one new family , Future Vertical Lift - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia the top contender is a joint venture of Boeing/Sikorsky based off an experimental Co-Axial model Sikorsky X2 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia There are very good benefits with this technology, in 10 years time most modern militaries will be fielding or testing some kind of co-axial design.

Demonstrations will start by 2017, and by early 2020s they will be in production. Meanwhile, HAL probably doesn't even have a clue about co-axials, and at best by 2020 the single axial LUH will finally start production.

 

[dadeechi]

Whole night I waited tobsee details which are partially disclosed which indicates that certain things are lot more clear..

Reliance tie up with USC crucially indicates the talwar class story in pipavav against to my liking of getting a quick induction of existing semi finished ones from Russia directly

Again Reliance defense tieup with Antley indicates abmuch more detailed deal for AD systems with a scope of larger systems under MII which I had said before that is planned for phase 2. A article which states 4 systems in four directions around Delhi is a hogwash... Practically Delhi will never be top 5 target.. It's actually ridiculous to feel that Moscow with centralised command center having multiple S400 in regiment form protecting is being duplicated with 5 batteries based around Delhi when there is no similarity of structure.

Again by evening a publication like India Today who were first to break story about K series Missile and are respected publication indicated all is not well in FGFA camp. TBH HAL statement of progress being made in FGFA even before any summit discussion starting was a bit fishy to me.. I mean if FGFA progress is really there the first person to confirm would have been DM MP himself as that project is essentially a MII top showcase...unfortunately if the case is true the ramifications are much larger as tech for AMCA is gone kaput and in house development would mean at least 2 decades in R&D.... The solution would be first more interim Rafales and finally signing agreements with USA and F35s.. At least that's what I see.. And India becoming a much stronger non NATO ally with UK Australia Japan like access or perhaps even more.. Geopolitical implications gonna be huge.

The new 636 subs and the Nsub program are again with no information. Yday I got a new view that IN folks are not very perceptive of what in public it is being discussed about N subs from Russia. The talks of Yasen actually is not fully correct rather Yasen technologies is the reality. You see IN is clear that having SSN as Akula 2 and SSBN arihant later improved Arihant types and a new indigenously built SSN itself implies 3 aub program having 3 different sub crew training. Now Yasen induction would complicate it to 4 training programs for crew, a logistics nightmare as a new place within a shipyard gas to develop for Yasen home and basic shore facilities.. The reality was and is that Akula 2 lease had taught us that Russian SSN that has come does have some legacy tech which is inferior to IN desire primarily the sonar part where a spherical sonar was desired. That's why Arihant has USHUS and Yasen Borei all are having new advanced sonar and other technologies. IN desired such Hi tech for the second N sub lease so desire was either upgrade Kashalot implying more cost or make it in IRBIS implying wait for more time. The talks discussed about a stronger role of Russian and such Yasen Borei derived tech in domestic SSN SSBN projects... So its difficult to expect NaMo to pull this out with just one meeting..

True NaMo is expected to make things happen but Russia case is now similar to French case in our deals.. The public reaction for Rafales cost numbers MII was a honest reflection.. Now the same is being applied to Russians. Twitter war on NaMo visit failure is a strong indication of high expectations and results being not in sync..

Perhaps time has come to stop talking defense too much in public domain and do only when deal is done..

Long post.. @Abingdonboy not a very good Christmas and new year as per present information for Indian defense..
BTW a quick update in a interesting thing.. In sputnik news a headline in first page does not mention much about NaMO visit but headline article is this
Pakistan Joins Russia, Condemns Any Attempts to Topple Assad in Syria / Sputnik International

Is this an I indication? Why NaMo visit coverage is limited as compared to this article which came up sharp around 10PM IST.. Conspiracy theory???

Excellent Post.

126 RAFALEs are very critical now more than ever. I love RAFALEs but I am skeptical. With no Russian option, French and US would surely now play hard ball.

 

[AMCA]

Is Reliance's Aerospace Park ready in Mihan?

 

[The_Sidewinder]

Well done Indo-Russian friendship.
:wecome:

 

[Water Car Engineer]

Kamov was chosen for two reasons:

1. Need of a light utility helicopter, and HAL LUH is not yet ready/can't be produced fast enough.

2. To obtain technology for co-axial helicopters.

I doubt HAL or DRDO are very far in the #2 area, and so they want to buy the technology from Russia to study it for future indigenous designs. The problem here is that MoD is still very insecure about handing off sensitive and high technology to the private sector, and still prefers using the Defence PSUs. This of course makes India the only major country in the world to still rely mostly on publicly held companies, as even China and Russia have mostly privatized their military industrial complex.

As for the technology, co-axials are the future. For the new American program to replace ALL (UH-60 Black Hawk, Apache, Kiowa, Chinook) the major helicopters into one new family , Future Vertical Lift - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia the top contender is a joint venture of Boeing/Sikorsky based off an experimental Co-Axial model Sikorsky X2 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia There are very good benefits with this technology, in 10 years time most modern militaries will be fielding or testing some kind of co-axial design.

Demonstrations will start by 2017, and by early 2020s they will be in production. Meanwhile, HAL probably doesn't even have a clue about co-axials, and at best by 2020 the single axial LUH will finally start production.

I am not talking about Kamov LUH being chosen, but why the local assembly is given to HAL, which has several projects already in the pipe line. This includes several helicopter programs which they're not even done with, including their own LUH program.

 

[anant_s]

Kamov deal is going to come, perhaps its groundwork remains to be done.
The program will be first among various coming under Make in India and therefore perhaps some groundwork is still pending.
A formal declaration may come later next year after Kamov completes formalities of chodenge partner etc.
With close to 200 Helios and USD 2 billion value, Russia will not let go the deal, especially when it knows there are other countries waiting eagerly to fill up the possible vacancy.

 

[Jai Bharat]

I am not talking about Kamov LUH being chosen, but why the local assembly is given to HAL, which has several projects already in the pipe line. This includes several helicopters, including their own LUH program.

Can't confirm til the specifics of the deal come out in the open, but technology transfer would logically follow the manufacturing line. If Reliance gets this deal, then they can start dissecting the components and get a better understanding on the Co-Axial designs and start competing with HAL as they will also have a very mature production line for these specific helicopter types, which will no doubt be the future. And as I have said before MoD is evidently not very comfortable with certain high technology and assembly being in the hands of private Indian companies in the aerospace industry, for whatever reasons.

A possible rationale, would be that MoD is trying to bolster up HAL with technology and manufacturing lines to increase their value before they privatize them to maximize revenue to GoI and ensure that the aerospace industry will face little disruption as initially only ownership will change hands. I have heard a similar strategy is being taken with Air India, where government is planning to privatize them, but only after they have reached a certain threshold of profitability and market value.

 

[Water Car Engineer]

If Reliance gets this deal, then they can start dissecting the components and get a better understanding on the Co-Axial designs and start competing with HAL as they will also have a very mature production line for these specific helicopter types, which will no doubt be the future. And as I have said before MoD is evidently not very comfortable with certain high technology and assembly being in the hands of private Indian companies in the aerospace industry, for whatever reasons.

The MoD allowed, brought about two new facilities that can compete with HAL and OFB. The armored manufacturing belt for K9 Thunder with L&T, and another line for TATA to produce C295. Both will cut into HAL and OFBs order sheet in the future. Also, Reliance just bagged an order to produce a frigate design/system and L&T has worked on Arihant's hull. So I dont think MoD took tech in mind. MoD have of late been giving private firms lead integration roles, which is unheard of.

 

[gslv mk3]

3,5,8 &9 are too exciting...Especially 9-HEC was established in cooperation with some eastern block countries,now they're upgrading it with Russian help compete with some private sector companies.

I have no idea what technology Russia has to offer in railways

 

[Jai Bharat]

The MoD allowed, brought about two new facilities that can compete with HAL and OFB. The armored manufacturing belt for K9 Thunder with L&T, and another line for TATA to produce C295. Both will cut into HAL and OFBs order sheet in the future. Also, Reliance just bagged an order to produce a frigate design and L&T has worked on Arihant's hull. So I dont think MoD took tech in mind.

As I said before:

And as I have said before MoD is evidently not very comfortable with certain high technology and assembly being in the hands of private Indian companies in the aerospace industry, for whatever reasons.

In other fields, MoD is fine with private companies handling everything, but every time it comes down to the aerospace industry MoD is very insistent on using HAL as much as possible, they clearly have some very strong leverage, or MoD has a very clear idea about bolstering them up and then privatizing them. There is a very clear intention to at least keep them as a monopoly for aerospace assembly, even if that means sourcing nearly all the parts from abroad or other private companies.

The C295 is the only major exception, and was due to it being an open tender competition, with HAL partnering with C-27J, made by Alina, a subsidiary of Finmeccanica which was blacklisted after a corruption scandal involving the VIP helicopters. There was no other options regarding that decision.

 

[Water Car Engineer]

In other fields, MoD is fine with private companies handling everything, but every time it comes down to the aerospace industry MoD is very insistent on using HAL as much as possible, they clearly have some very strong leverage, or MoD has a very clear idea about bolstering them up and then privatizing them. There is a very clear intention to at least keep them as a monopoly for aerospace assembly, even if that means sourcing nearly all the parts from abroad or other private companies.

The C295 is the only major exception, and was due to it being an open tender competition, with HAL partnering with C-27J, made by Alina, a subsidiary of Finmeccanica which was blacklisted after a corruption scandal involving the VIP helicopters. There was no other options regarding that decision.

Actually, no, HAL was barred from that competition from the beginning by the MoD. HAL even lobbied against it, they failed and the MoD went through with the TATA-Airbus team. Even though they were the only one in the tender(which you're supposed to drop).

The government has also tried to attract the private sector by approving 56 transport aircraft in India. The minister has barred Hindustan Aeronautics Limited from the process, reported NDTV. The deal is a foreign manufacturer could bid for the process by tying up with any Indian private player. the foreign company could build the first 16 planes, after which it must transfer the technology to its partner which will build the remaining 40 planes.

Arun Jaitley approves defence deals worth Rs 34,260 crore; woos private sector for aircraft production | Latest News & Updates at Daily News & Analysis

The tender had sought foreign OEMs (Original Equipment Manufacturers) to identify an Indian partner other than HAL, to supply 16 aircraft from their original facilities and provide Transfer of Technology for manufacturing the remaining 40 aircraft by the Indian partner.

The MoD's decision on Avro is seen as a major set-back to Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) which had opposed the tender format right from the word go

. HAL argued in the last nine months with the MoD that the company is capable of building a robust aerospace ecosystem in the country by partnering with the private industries. The company had sighted the Transport Aircraft Division in Kanpur as a proven facility capable of developing and manufacturing Avros and Dorniers.

HAL officials refused comment in detail on the DAC announcement. "These are government decisions and we have to abide by it," was the only comment an official would offer.

Read more at: Tata-Airbus given final nod for Avro replacement project - Oneindia


Besides the transport aircraft itself, the point by the MoD was to create another big aerospace plant under the private sector, who can act as a lead integrator. Barring HAL to enter, and going with the soul partnership is indicative enough of how much they wanted a competitor to HAL.

In other fields, MoD is fine with private companies handling everything,

They were not. The K9 Thunder deal for L&T, Talwar deal for reliance are just as new as the C295. As far as private participation, acting as lead integrator are concerned. Unprecedented in the Indian context.

OFB completely dominated armored manufacturing. Public sector shipyards dominated shipbuilding. No different to HAL with defence aerospace.

 

[Jai Bharat]

Actually, no, HAL was barred from that competition from the beginning by the MoD. HAL even lobbied against it, they failed and the MoD went through with the TATA-Airbus team. Even though they were the only one in the tender(which you're supposed to drop).





Arun Jaitley approves defence deals worth Rs 34,260 crore; woos private sector for aircraft production | Latest News & Updates at Daily News & Analysis





Read more at: Tata-Airbus given final nod for Avro replacement project - Oneindia


Besides the transport aircraft itself, the point by the MoD was to create another big aerospace plant under the private sector, who can act as a lead integrator. Barring HAL to enter, and going with the soul partnership is indicative enough of how much they wanted a competitor to HAL.




They were not. The K9 Thunder deal for L&T, Talwar deal for reliance are just as new as the C295. As far as private participation, acting as lead integrator are concerned. Unprecedented in the Indian context.

OFB completely dominated armored manufacturing. Public sector shipyards dominated shipbuilding. No different to HAL with defence aerospace.

Interesting, thanks for posting didn't know most of that. I guess MoD really has only recently changed with accepting private companies now under Parrikar for every area, including the aforementioned aerospace. In that case, perhaps it might be that Kamov specifically requested HAL or that HAL has some special assembling technologies which allows only them to be able to quickly manufacture the Ka-226T. Other than that Reliance perhaps didn't want the contract? I believe their aerospace park was primarily geared towards the impending Rafale deal. But I can't imagine a private company turning down such a lucrative deal. One can only wonder I suppose.

 

[Water Car Engineer]

Interesting, thanks for posting didn't know most of that. I guess MoD really has only recently changed with accepting private companies now under Parrikar for every area, including the aforementioned aerospace.

Most of these ideas were going about under the congress, this government is moving faster on it however.

But yes, all of this is recent, and unprecedented.

TATA - C259
Reliance - Talwars
L&T - K9 Thunders

I thought I would never see this happen so early. And it's only the beginning.

 

[Echo_419]

Congrats to india.

Wish I could say the same for your grandson 'Annie'