FBI says two serving Pak officers had ties with Headley

[Hulk]

The summary of discussion is that Pakistani feel they are doing tit for tat for they believe India has done similar in past 71 or current.

IMO 71 was war as it was fought against army and not civilian and minus Pakistani friends no one calls it terrorism.

About current Indian involvement, Pakistan's evidence was rejected by USA. The only country with which it shared it. So GOP has to prove the other way round, why not prove it to China. If evidence is proved against India I will not hesitate to accept it.

Unlike my Pakistani friend who believes in something but gives diplomatic answer. This forum is not law of court why fear dear.

 

[All-Green]

Coming to the topic at hand, in a country of 180 million, it is not strange if their are some army men who sympathize with Jihadis...just like their will be officers in Indian Army who would have thought that the Gujrat massacre was justified...

However Pakistan Army is an Army which has undergone sure and steady change to adapt to the threat which is posed by such elements.
It is certainly a professional army and has all the checks and balances which ensure that there is no hanky panky on a formation level.

A non state actor can even be a serving officer who is acting independently.
There are examples of many trusted agents in CIA or KGB who were double dealing rascals and sold out their own country...
I am sure you guys do realize that such an element is always there and to think otherwise is childish to say the least...no offense to anyone.

However the more secure a facility needs to be, more checks are kept in place to ensure there are enough layers to monitor each other and vertical interaction of these layers in terms of reporting abnormal activities is not confined to just 2-3 people in the hierarchy.
Pakistan has amped up its internal checks and that is what it has to do.

Even if hypothetically a few serving soldiers are involved that does not mean a state or Army level terror designs...Pakistan has nothing to gain from Mumbai like adventures...it was more of an attack on India...why do this openly when it is possible to use extremists already operating in India?
Is ISI really that stupid to carry out such a plan in which the chances of Pakistan being implied were 100%?

The truth behind Mumbai attack is perhaps one that is even more serious than what the people see, the terrorist networks are now planning to cause serious wars and have this capability!
Thanks to the mistrust in many parts of the world between powerful nations, this can be a huge disaster in the making.

9-11 was carried out by Arabs from Afghanistan...is is not brilliant...an attack which is unparalleled in complexity was executed by seemingly crude Arabs whose HQ was in Afghanistan???
And the whole world believes it to top it all...
Indeed Al Qaeda and OBL are terrorists no doubt...however think about it...Arabs being lead from Afghanistan!

Now what if god forbid had this attack been against India, then what?
My point is that had such an attack happened on Indian soil, all of the experts here would never have even given a 1% chance that it is a terrorist network independent of Pakistan...all experts would have been playing the aircraft crashing videos and saying how it was ISI/PAF training...sadly that is what it is in case of Mumbai, the guilt is already determined in Indian minds and this despite the fact that the Mumbai attack is not even close in complexity and planning to the 9-11 one in any aspect...

On the other hand in terms of execution and timing of the attack, it hugely works against any interest of Pakistan...at a time of severe crisis it added tremendously to our worries...ISI serves Pakistan and even in getting back at India for anything would not merit such a stupid and rash plan...

The greatest threat that terrorists pose is now to cause global conflicts...indeed if you all look at what OBL has achieved then one has to wonder how the US has fallen in the trap...what have the terrorists lost in Afghanistan?
I am not saying that they have lost nothing at all...i am saying that mostly the Afghans have perished due to the complexity of the situation thanks to the needless pride of Taliban in favor of a scumbag like OBL till perhaps the last moment and by then Bush jumped in all guns blazing...
Between Bush and Omar what has happened...only one to win is OBL!
The terrorists are still at large and enjoying the show...they gain access to more locals and buy their children in such desperate times...to be used in suicide attacks...

The flames of war give rise to death and destruction and utter destitute in which the terrorist gain cannon fodder to be used in carrying out their nefarious agenda...sadly it is a very difficult and long battle even if all countries are sincere towards each other and limit their objectives to end of terrorism alone....somehow it seems to be a very very long haul...

 

[Halaku Khan]

Even if hypothetically a few serving soldiers are involved that does not mean a state or Army level terror designs...Pakistan has nothing to gain from Mumbai like adventures...

You make valid points ... But why doesn't Pakistan come out and declare who was handling Headley, for example? Headley himself says that he met Hafiz Saeed etc.

The attempts to conceal evidence, the failure to prosecute shows that the terrorists are supported by the topmost authorities, don't you think?

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

NEW DELHI: The FBI interrogation of David Coleman Headley alias Daood Gilani has, for the first time, confirmed what India has always known: A
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"section of serving Pakistan army officers" are working in collaboration with India-specific jihadi groups like LeT and JeM. ( Watch Video )

Sources said this was revealed by Headley to his FBI interrogators in what is the first confirmation by an independent probe agency of the involvement of Pakistani army officers in planning and executing terrorist operations against India.

This, sources said, had been conveyed to the Indian side by the FBI team which visited India to share information on Headley’s questioning. While Pakistan has explained away the instances of the involvement of army officials calling them “aberrations”, this has exposed the jihadi infiltration of the Pakistani army and their collaboration with terrorist outfits in anti-India operations.

Sources said the officials identified by Headley were working with Lashkar on ‘Karachi project’ as part of a larger campaign against India. This project involves using jihadi fugitives from India sheltered in Pakistan to draw in vulnerable Indian Muslim youth.

The FBI interrogation of David Coleman Headley has revealed a Lashkar training project involving jihadi fugitives from India. The youth, after they are trained by Pakistani army officials, are sent back to India as part of the gameplan to conceal the Pakistani involvement and pass off the terror in India as a home-grown phenomenon.

During their discussions with FBI, the Indian side told them about their strong suspicion that Headley was present in the Karachi control room from which the Lashkar leadership choreographed the 26/11 terror attacks. The FBI team said this was not borne out by the evidence in their possession but the Indian side has asked the US agency to check a few facts which they have promised to do.

The details of the Karachi project, revealed by FBI, corroborates India’s own findings. Agencies here have established that a number of absconding terrorists — Aamir Raza Khan, Mufti Sufi Patangiya and Rasool Parti and the remnants of Shahid Bilal gang from Hyderabad — have been luring Muslim youth to be trained as jihadis before being sent to India.

The launch of Indian Mujahideen, which tormented India with a wave of bombings, was part of the plan to erase Pakistan’s fingerprints and pass off the attacks as resulting from the disaffection of a section of its own population.

Even 26/11 attackers, armed with fake IDs of a Bangalore engineering college, had planned to mask their nationality. One of them had called up a TV channel introducing the gang as Deccan Mujahideen.


Pak officers working with jihadis, Headley confirms to FBI - India - The Times of India

Once again, the FBI did not say so, 'anonymous sources' speaking to the ToI said so.

Please stop posting unsubstantiated nonsense from the Indian media. There is nothing to support this story.

 

[deckingraj]

Now what if god forbid had this attack been against India, then what?
[/b]My point is that had such an attack happened on Indian soil, all of the experts here would never have even given a 1% chance that it is a terrorist network independent of Pakistan...all experts would have been playing the aircraft crashing videos and saying how it was ISI/PAF training...sadly that is what it is in case of Mumbai, the guilt is already determined in Indian minds and this despite the fact that the Mumbai attack is not even close in complexity and planning to the 9-11 one in any aspect...

I would say overall a balanced post and in fact i think your overall point is very valid....However i have some questions about this particular part...When you draw an analogy between Indian response towards Pakistan if 9/11 would have happened here(God forbids) vs USA response in respect to Arab and Afghanistan then don't you think you are missing one key point???

- US did go after the terrorist organization who is responsible for the Attack. It was supported by Taliban so they had the choice to hand over OBL or face the consequences....Had OBL supported by Arab and was present there don't you think a similar reaction/choice would have been given to them???

- As far as i know the proposed surgical strikes in Pakistan was directed against terror groups operating in Pakistan targetting India's interests....Now right or wrong as per GOI POV it is not just a non-state actors role...With that in mind where do you see the difference??

 

[EyelessInGaza]

Prosecuted? Yes.
Pakistan Charges 7 in Mumbai Attacks | Asia | English


You can argue that, but then Pakistan is not disputed territory and Kashmir is. Also, we will bomb your embassies off without hesitation whenever we can (read whenever the Americans step out of the way).

Kashmir may be disputed territory, but to say that "we will bomb your embassies off without hesitation whenever we can" is a bit over the top. If you say that that the Pakistani government is going to bomb embassies, that does not help your argument. On the contrary.

Pakistani government has the full mandate of its people to work in the interest of Kashmir's freedom from Indian occupation. Not anywhere else in India. Those are just non-state actors.

To say that the others are 'just non -state actors' does not absolve the GOP from responsibility. Not a bit.

I still do not think that 26/11 was planned by the active support of GOP. But in the end governments are responsible for what their citizens do. To say otherwise is to openly concede that that government no longer has sovereignty or control. In turn that makes it perfectly acceptable for other governments to intervene when they are hurt by those same 'non state actors'.

You cannot have it both ways.

 

[Hulk]

Kashmir may be disputed territory, but to say that "we will bomb your embassies off without hesitation whenever we can" is a bit over the top. If you say that that the Pakistani government is going to bomb embassies, that does not help your argument. On the contrary.




To say that the others are 'just non -state actors' does not absolve the GOP from responsibility. Not a bit.

I still do not think that 26/11 was planned by the active support of GOP. But in the end governments are responsible for what their citizens do. To say otherwise is to openly concede that that government no longer has sovereignty or control. In turn that makes it perfectly acceptable for other governments to intervene when they are hurt by those same 'non state actors'.

You cannot have it both ways.

I beg to differ on involvement of GOP, if they were not why did they try to hide identity of Kasab. Their was absolutly no reason, so much negativity was created between to nations because of this attitude. People are not fool that when they saw the father of Kasab claiming his nationality the GOP was still saying he is not Pakistani.

 

[manojb]

Once again, the FBI did not say so, 'anonymous sources' speaking to the ToI said so.

Please stop posting unsubstantiated nonsense from the Indian media. There is nothing to support this story.

Non-Indian source quoting ToI!

Among the details that FBI interrogators have elicited from David Coleman Headley is "the involvement of Pakistani army officers in planning and executing terrorist operations against India" according to a report in the Times of India.

Headley, alias Daood Gilani, told FBI agents that a "section of serving Pakistan army officers" is working in collaboration with Jihadist groups including Lashkar-e-Tayyeba or LeT.


2nd Chicago terror suspect knew about Mumbai attack - 12/14/09 - Chicago News - abc7chicago.com

 

[EyelessInGaza]

I beg to differ on involvement of GOP, if they were not why did they try to hide identity of Kasab. Their was absolutly no reason, so much negativity was created between to nations because of this attitude. People are not fool that when they saw the father of Kasab claiming his nationality the GOP was still saying he is not Pakistani.

I think that GOP's reaction in this case was one of classic bumblers than evil masterminds - lord knows we have enough of the former in the subcontinent.

The initial reaction to deny Kasab's identity was, in my opinion, knee-jerk reaction, followed by 'it cannot be a Pakistani', followed by 'Oh crap, hide his identity because they'll blame us'. Add the usual paranoia, bluff and deceit that is practiced and you have a recipe for denial.

IIRC, some elements of Pakistani media (not all) themselves went in and proved Kasab was a Pakistani.

I cannot accept - yet - that Pakistani establishment supported 26/11. Rogue elements, possibly. Also, I do not believe that 'non state actors' takes away responsibility from GOP; on the contrary.

However, to say that GOP planned and supported 26/11 is stepping over the line of reason. Hard to believe a government can do that.

 

[Hulk]

I think that GOP's reaction in this case was one of classic bumblers than evil masterminds - lord knows we have enough of the former in the subcontinent.

The initial reaction to deny Kasab's identity was, in my opinion, knee-jerk reaction, followed by 'it cannot be a Pakistani', followed by 'Oh crap, hide his identity because they'll blame us'. Add the usual paranoia, bluff and deceit that is practiced and you have a recipe for denial.

IIRC, some elements of Pakistani media (not all) themselves went in and proved Kasab was a Pakistani.

I cannot accept - yet - that Pakistani establishment supported 26/11. Rogue elements, possibly. Also, I do not believe that 'non state actors' takes away responsibility from GOP; on the contrary.

However, to say that GOP planned and supported 26/11 is stepping over the line of reason. Hard to believe a government can do that.

You can give them benfit of doubt so easily, but I cannot. It was not person/company etc, it was GOP governement of a country and trying to hide is prima facia considered guilt if proven otherwise.

The entire country felt, it was attacked by GOP since they seems to be hiding the truth. You do not understand the impact.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Non-Indian source quoting ToI!

Among the details that FBI interrogators have elicited from David Coleman Headley is "the involvement of Pakistani army officers in planning and executing terrorist operations against India" according to a report in the Times of India.

Headley, alias Daood Gilani, told FBI agents that a "section of serving Pakistan army officers" is working in collaboration with Jihadist groups including Lashkar-e-Tayyeba or LeT.


2nd Chicago terror suspect knew about Mumbai attack - 12/14/09 - Chicago News - abc7chicago.com

And once again, the fact remains that it is an unsubstantiated report based on an 'anonymous source' in the ToI. The story could be validated later, as of now it has nothing.

Unless there is a secondary source backing these reports up, please stop posting propaganda against Pakistan from the Indian media on this forum.

Thank you.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

You can give them benfit of doubt so easily, but I cannot. It was not person/company etc, it was GOP governement of a country and trying to hide is prima facia considered guilt if proven otherwise.

The entire country felt, it was attacked by GOP since they seems to be hiding the truth. You do not understand the impact.

The important phrase in your post is that the 'entire country felt' - thats the point, feelings don't establish guilt, hard evidence does, and on that count India has nothing implicating the Pakistani state or its institutions in Mumbai.

I could also argue that the GoI could have been more forthcoming and have shared evidence and information with Pakistan at an official level (which it did not do until months later through its dossiers), which could have accelerated the process of Pakistan confirming Kasab's identity.

Instead we heard demands of Pakistan shoudl do XYZ because the media says so, and the GoI wanted Pakistan to accept this and do that, just because it said so.

Personally I believe the obstructionism and reluctance to share evidence on the part of the GoI was deliberate. They knew politically the GoP would have a very hard time acting against anyone in the jingoistic and war-hysteria atmosphere created by the Indian media and GoI, without any overt cooperation and information sharing by the GoI, and they used that delay to score propaganda points against Pakistan and pile up pressure on it by suggesting it was not doing anything.

 

[bones20]

How the west, India should react if this is further proved? What should be the provisions for it?

How the people of Pakistan will react to it? Will they continue to support such activities of Pakistan army?

Should India respond with the same to Pakistan?

All valid questions. However, I am of the view that the problem lies elsewhere (outside of Pakistan). This is what I think(from another thread):

Analysis and Solution to this problem:
- Terrorists activities occur periodically in various parts of the world
- ALL trace their origins, conception, planning and execution to the terror capital - Pakistan
- Pakistan economy is (and has always been bankrupt). They cant afford to run this machinery by themselves
- The biggest source of funding for Pakistan is American Alms. So there, America is the biggest contributor to terror.
- Other source of funding is Afghan weed business

Solution:
1. US should stop all forms of aid to Pakistan. "Naa rahega baas, naa bajegi baasuri"
2. US should stop selling military equipment to Pakistan. That will discourage their military to not misadventure. Well point #1 will almost ensure this since they wont have money to buy equipment anyways (unless they manage beg money from elsewhere).
3. Ban/sanction the weed business in Afghanistan.

 

[bones20]

The important phrase in your post is that the 'entire country felt' - thats the point, feelings don't establish guilt, hard evidence does, and on that count India has nothing implicating the Pakistani state or its institutions in Mumbai.

I could also argue that the GoI could have been more forthcoming and have shared evidence and information with Pakistan at an official level (which it did not do until months later through its dossiers), which could have accelerated the process of Pakistan confirming Kasab's identity.

Instead we heard demands of Pakistan shoudl do XYZ because the media says so, and the GoI wanted Pakistan to accept this and do that, just because it said so.

Personally I believe the obstructionism and reluctance to share evidence on the part of the GoI was deliberate. They knew politically the GoP would have a very hard time acting against anyone in the jingoistic and war-hysteria atmosphere created by the Indian media and GoI, without any overt cooperation and information sharing by the GoI, and they used that delay to score propaganda points against Pakistan and pile up pressure on it by suggesting it was not doing anything.

True. I am willing to concede that we suck at most things. But we are good at international diplomacy (leaving aside the Nehru era).

I like what GOI did - Full Marks.

 

[MilesTogo]

India needs some "non-state" actors.