Fawad Chaudhry launches 'Pakistan's first official' moonsighting website

[Blueskiez 2001]

Am I supposed to spell it out for you? If you haven’t done your due diligence how can you propose a system that is allegedly better?

Saudi Arabia prints an Islamic calendar, uses the Islamic calendar as official dates yet takes the time out to sight the moon ONE DAY BEFORE. That is what the Islamic way is.

I have - But i don´t know if you have before you tell me.

So now let me spell some thing out for you: The moon has an orbit around the earth. And the earth has an orbit around the sun. Just as other planets have around the sun. These orbits are well defined and the course of the planets happens very strictly in a predetermined time. Hence the astronomists have a very precise knowledge of when the sun will rise and the sunset. We know that down to the minute. The position of the sun relatively to the earth, and the position of the moon relatively to the earth and sun is known and can be calculated down to the minute because the sun, earth and moon have a constant speed in the universe. So we can calculate what the position of the moon will be at any given time. So we know at what day we will have a new moon. So there is no uncertainty in this. So there is no need to sight the moon because we know out our calculations at what day there will be a new moon. And these calenders of the new moon has been available for centuries and they have never been wrong....

The next question is: Who has made these laws of motion? Who is responsible for the orbit of the moon and earth? Is it Newton? or Kepler? NOPE- you guessed it right. It is Allah - Allah made these laws of motion. So will Allah make imperfect laws ie laws that changes and behaves at the pleasure of the people? No Allah will not. His laws never changes. And think about it - how many things do we do and plan based on these unchangeable physical laws? Ever been on plan bro? Traveled by ship? Did a x-ray of the lungs to see if your father had a pnemonia? Took medicine? I could just carry on. We live our life based on Allah´s laws. We abide by them even if we don´t want to or don´t think about them. My imaan is that even the social laws is from Allah and not following them will have negative on our us and our society - but that is a different discussion for an another time. Coming back to the need of sighting of the moon to tell whether its a new month (and hence Eid) or not is just so not necessary anymore....

Read the Quran - what does that tell you?

Just one ayat should be enough: 39/5: He created the heavens and the earth in true (proportions): He makes the Night overlap the Day, and the Day overlap the Night: He has subjected the sun and the moon (to His law): Each one follows a course for a time appointed. Is not He the Exalted in Power - He Who forgives again and again?
Translation Yousef Ali.

What do you get out of this ayat?

And the next thing you probably will say is we need to do it because Muhammad (PBUH) did it in his time. OK - i´ll go with that. But then you also need to accept that you cannot travel by cycle, car, ship or plane - you will need a camel. You also cannot use a watch to tell the time, you cant use a lamp to light up a room, and you can´t use internet to get knowledge... uuuups.... why because muhammad (PBUH) didn´t use them....

Keep the principle friend - always keep the principle: We will celebrate Eid the day after the new moon... Then you will be able to both progress and adhere to spirit of Islam. How lovely will it be if ALL muslims through out the earth celebrate eid at one single day? That will not happen unless everyone adhere to the principle.

And at a site note: how come we don´t celebrate Eid the day the moon is sighted in Saudia Arabia? - please do not bother to answer, I just want you to think about it....

 

[313ghazi]

Sorry to disagree bro...
Off course you can. Calender done on scientific observation hold its ground.
The same way you can argue: what if there are clouds for several days - then you can´t have eid???
ITS NOT MANDATORY to sight the moon for establishing a new month - or for that sake eid....

Bhai ji, there is a majority view within Islam that it is.

The hadith clearly states, a month is 30 days unless the moon is sighted on the 29th.

 

[AZ1]

So no spectacles or telescope?


Care to explain what is happening here?

Mullahs hate it when you point out their hypocrisy but I love showing them their auqaat.

I told already that islamic way+technology

Thats why in saudia they used both.

 

[Blueskiez 2001]

Bhai ji, there is a majority view within Islam that it is.

The hadith clearly states, a month is 30 days unless the moon is sighted on the 29th.

Bhai jee - yahi to mushkil hai. Ghalat kyial majority mein hi to mar daltein hein

About Hadith please look at the Quraan: [Quran 39:23] God has revealed herein the BEST HADITH (narrations, sayings, words, speech, opinions, statement, utterance, discourse, account, tale.....); a book that is consistent and points out both ways (to heaven and hell). The skins of those who reverence their Lord cringe therefrom, then their skins and their hearts soften up for God's message. Such is God's guidance; he bestows it upon whomever He wills. As for those sent astray by God, nothing can guide them.

I told already that islamic way+technology

Thats why in saudia they used both.

Nope you wrote Science in your previous post - there is a difference between technology and science.

They are not using science they are using technology. If they used science they would not need the technology...

And its still not the naked eye...

 

[313ghazi]

Bhai jee - yahi to mushkil hai. Ghalat kyial majority mein hi to mar daltein hein

About Hadith please look at the Quraan: [Quran 39:23] God has revealed herein the BEST HADITH (narrations, sayings, words, speech, opinions, statement, utterance, discourse, account, tale.....); a book that is consistent and points out both ways (to heaven and hell). The skins of those who reverence their Lord cringe therefrom, then their skins and their hearts soften up for God's message. Such is God's guidance; he bestows it upon whomever He wills. As for those sent astray by God, nothing can guide them.

So what do you mean?

 

[Blueskiez 2001]

Ghazi bahi

You can´t use the argument that because of the majority have a certain opinion it is therefor correct..

Even the alim´s do not agree on the subject of Hadith. Ask them which hadith? The ones of sunni or the ones of shia.
Sunni have 6 different books of hadith from 6 different authors
Shia have 12...

So therefor adhere yourself to the hadith of Allah ie the Quran

 

[313ghazi]

I have - But i don´t know if you have before you tell me.

So now let me spell some thing out for you: The moon has an orbit around the earth. And the earth has an orbit around the sun. Just as other planets have around the sun. These orbits are well defined and the course of the planets happens very strictly in a predetermined time. Hence the astronomists have a very precise knowledge of when the sun will rise and the sunset. We know that down to the minute. The position of the sun relatively to the earth, and the position of the moon relatively to the earth and sun is known and can be calculated down to the minute because the sun, earth and moon have a constant speed in the universe. So we can calculate what the position of the moon will be at any given time. So we know at what day we will have a new moon. So there is no uncertainty in this. So there is no need to sight the moon because we know out our calculations at what day there will be a new moon. And these calenders of the new moon has been available for centuries and they have never been wrong....

The next question is: Who has made these laws of motion? Who is responsible for the orbit of the moon and earth? Is it Newton? or Kepler? NOPE- you guessed it right. It is Allah - Allah made these laws of motion. So will Allah make imperfect laws ie laws that changes and behaves at the pleasure of the people? No Allah will not. His laws never changes. And think about it - how many things do we do and plan based on these unchangeable physical laws? Ever been on plan bro? Traveled by ship? Did a x-ray of the lungs to see if your father had a pnemonia? Took medicine? I could just carry on. We live our life based on Allah´s laws. We abide by them even if we don´t want to or don´t think about them. My imaan is that even the social laws is from Allah and not following them will have negative on our us and our society - but that is a different discussion for an another time. Coming back to the need of sighting of the moon to tell whether its a new month (and hence Eid) or not is just so not necessary anymore....

Read the Quran - what does that tell you?

Just one ayat should be enough: 39/5: He created the heavens and the earth in true (proportions): He makes the Night overlap the Day, and the Day overlap the Night: He has subjected the sun and the moon (to His law): Each one follows a course for a time appointed. Is not He the Exalted in Power - He Who forgives again and again?
Translation Yousef Ali.

What do you get out of this ayat?

And the next thing you probably will say is we need to do it because Muhammad (PBUH) did it in his time. OK - i´ll go with that. But then you also need to accept that you cannot travel by cycle, car, ship or plane - you will need a camel. You also cannot use a watch to tell the time, you cant use a lamp to light up a room, and you can´t use internet to get knowledge... uuuups.... why because muhammad (PBUH) didn´t use them....

Keep the principle friend - always keep the principle: We will celebrate Eid the day after the new moon... Then you will be able to both progress and adhere to spirit of Islam. How lovely will it be if ALL muslims through out the earth celebrate eid at one single day? That will not happen unless everyone adhere to the principle.

And at a site note: how come we don´t celebrate Eid the day the moon is sighted in Saudia Arabia? - please do not bother to answer, I just want you to think about it....

The moon rotates around the earth every 27 days. Which is the lunar month not 27 days?

https://www.space.com/24871-does-the-moon-rotate.html

In different cultures the lunar month is different dates and observed in different ways.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lunar_month

 

[Blueskiez 2001]

The moon rotates around the earth every 27 days. Which is the lunar month not 27 days?

https://www.space.com/24871-does-the-moon-rotate.html

In different cultures the lunar month is different dates and observed in different ways.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lunar_month

And the point is?

 

[313ghazi]

Ghazi bahi

You can´t use the argument that because of the majority have a certain opinion it is therefor correct..

Even the alim´s do not agree on the subject of Hadith. Ask them which hadith? The ones of sunni or the ones of shia.
Sunni have 6 different books of hadith from 6 different authors
Shia have 12...

So therefor adhere yourself to the hadith of Allah ie the Quran

Yes you can. It's an Islamic principle called ijma (concensus). I am not concerned with the interpretation of Shia or anyone else, that is there business. My concern is the interpretation of the ahle sunnah, which is hanafi, Shafi, hanbali or maliki. All interpretations have the same source, the life of the Prophet Muhammad pbuh.

You cannot neglect hadith. Islam has built in mechanisms to determine the validity of hadith and also scope to accept plurality. We in Pakistan tend to pray Asar later that most people in the middle East. There is no qiyamat. It is acceptable. Most Shia open thier fast a few minutes after the sunnis, so what? We are all still alive, nobody becomes Kafir because of it.

In the UK we dont have true night during May to July, so isha and fajr times are calculated. The calculations are based on different formula based on different understanding. These don't have any basis in hadith, it's a new problem we face. As a result, sehri time varies between 0215am to 0400am depending on the timetable your masjid has provided. Its ajeeb, but the concensus is that it is acceptable and life goes on.

The moonsighting calculations Fawad Ch is referring to are the very same ones I have used my entire adult life to determine when Eid should be. However in the UK, all masjids back it up with moonsightings, be it from nearby countries, the UK itself or even Saudi Arabia.

My only argument is the sunnah cannot be scrapped.

 

[Crusher]

My only argument is the sunnah cannot be scrapped.

Most people on this forum don't even understand how important it is to adhere to "sunnah" of prophet Muhammad SAW for Ahle-Sunnat wal Jamat, that defines what we are and what our ancestors have been throughout the generations.

 

[313ghazi]

I promised myself I would not engage in this debate this Ramadan as it often leads to bad will between brothers. I failed on that end, but tbh I didn't account for Fawad Ch not being locked up... Lol

May Allah swt allow us to focus as intently on the other 28 days of Ramadan as we do on the first and last.

 

[Blueskiez 2001]

You cannot neglect hadith. Islam has built in mechanisms to determine the validity of hadith and also scope to accept plurality. We in Pakistan tend to pray Asar later that most people in the middle East. There is no qiyamat. It is acceptable. Most Shia open thier fast a few minutes after the sunnis, so what? We are all still alive, nobody becomes Kafir because of it.

Interesting Ghazi bhai

Please do not take my post as an offence. You have called me brother, and taking my own age ill probably be your elder one. I am trying to have a discussion where we all get more knowledgeable after than before the discussion. I think the problem is that we have never learned to ask questions when something that did not ad up comes up specially when we speak about religion. We do not do the reality check that we need to do...

So sorry to break this for you - since when has there been ijma among muslims? If there was so much ijma among muslims whys so many sects (firqas)? Not even at a city as Lahore can you find the prayer time the same... Azaan is done at different times - slightly but still different times. This is because of ijma?
We are not even able to break the fast at the same time cause of different time tables. And please don´t you dare to tell me that this is nothing - because this is the seed of separation, division and distrust among the muslim brotherhood. I have even heard people saying that this is good that we are doing things differently - if you are broad minded then yes. But i have not seen any mullah broad minded yet. Still need to see my first. They always cry out kafir to the first person that disagree. You know what they called Muhammad Ali Jinnah? Kafire Azam. Not even Allama Iqbal was spared.

Different sects are at each others throath - they differ at small issues and they are willing to kill for it!
And ijma is the reason why there has been sunni / shia riots where many muslims brothers are killed?
Because Sunni regards Shia as muslims and vice versa?

Sorry about my sarcasm but in which world do you live in?

Majority claims that denial even one hadith make you a kafir... Shia deny sunnis 6 books as sunni deny shia´s 12 books. So ask the sunnis and shia hazraat are kafir and vice versa. Please do not tell me otherwise.

In recent years just look what happened in Irak between Shia and Sunni. Thousand of persons killed in the name of religion...

 

[313ghazi]

Interesting Ghazi bhai

Please do not take my post as an offence. You have called me brother, and taking my own age ill probably be your elder one. I am trying to have a discussion where we all get more knowledgeable after than before the discussion. I think the problem is that we have never learned to ask questions when something that did not ad up comes up specially when we speak about religion. We do not do the reality check that we need to do...

So sorry to break this for you - since when has there been ijma among muslims? If there was so much ijma among muslims whys so many sects (firqas)? Not even at a city as Lahore can you find the prayer time the same... Azaan is done at different times - slightly but still different times. This is because of ijma?
We are not even able to break the fast at the same time cause of different time tables. And please don´t you dare to tell me that this is nothing - because this is the seed of separation, division and distrust among the muslim brotherhood. I have even heard people saying that this is good that we are doing things differently - if you are broad minded then yes. But i have not seen any mullah broad minded yet. Still need to see my first. They always cry out kafir to the first person that disagree. You know what they called Muhammad Ali Jinnah? Kafire Azam. Not even Allama Iqbal was spared.

Different sects are at each others throath - they differ at small issues and they are willing to kill for it!
And ijma is the reason why there has been sunni / shia riots where many muslims brothers are killed?
Because Sunni regards Shia as muslims and vice versa?

Sorry about my sarcasm but in which world do you live in?

Majority claims that denial even one hadith make you a kafir... Shia deny sunnis 6 books as sunni deny shia´s 12 books. So ask the sunnis and shia hazraat are kafir and vice versa. Please do not tell me otherwise.

In recent years just look what happened in Irak between Shia and Sunni. Thousand of persons killed in the name of religion...

Just a point on sectarian killings. Did they take thier land or just thier lives?

 

[Blueskiez 2001]

Most people on this forum don't even understand how important it is to adhere to "sunnah" of prophet Muhammad SAW for Ahle-Sunnat wal Jamat, that defines what we are and what our ancestors have been throughout the generations.

Please look up the word sunnah in the Quran

And where did it brought us?

 

[313ghazi]

Interesting Ghazi bhai

Please do not take my post as an offence. You have called me brother, and taking my own age ill probably be your elder one. I am trying to have a discussion where we all get more knowledgeable after than before the discussion. I think the problem is that we have never learned to ask questions when something that did not ad up comes up specially when we speak about religion. We do not do the reality check that we need to do...

So sorry to break this for you - since when has there been ijma among muslims? If there was so much ijma among muslims whys so many sects (firqas)? Not even at a city as Lahore can you find the prayer time the same... Azaan is done at different times - slightly but still different times. This is because of ijma?
We are not even able to break the fast at the same time cause of different time tables. And please don´t you dare to tell me that this is nothing - because this is the seed of separation, division and distrust among the muslim brotherhood. I have even heard people saying that this is good that we are doing things differently - if you are broad minded then yes. But i have not seen any mullah broad minded yet. Still need to see my first. They always cry out kafir to the first person that disagree. You know what they called Muhammad Ali Jinnah? Kafire Azam. Not even Allama Iqbal was spared.

Different sects are at each others throath - they differ at small issues and they are willing to kill for it!
And ijma is the reason why there has been sunni / shia riots where many muslims brothers are killed?
Because Sunni regards Shia as muslims and vice versa?

Sorry about my sarcasm but in which world do you live in?

Majority claims that denial even one hadith make you a kafir... Shia deny sunnis 6 books as sunni deny shia´s 12 books. So ask the sunnis and shia hazraat are kafir and vice versa. Please do not tell me otherwise.

In recent years just look what happened in Irak between Shia and Sunni. Thousand of persons killed in the name of religion...

There is a difference between concensus and uniformity. Islam is not communism where you are forces to stick to one script. The only oneness we focus on is that of Allah and the finality of his messenger (pbuh).

Anyone who told you not accepting a hadith is kufr, is jahil. You can reject hadith but it depends entirely on the validity of the hadith. There is a science to it.

As for different azan times, the only namaz that has to be prayed at an exact time is maghrib. Even that has a small window. The other namaz have windows of varying sizes in which you can pray them. Masjids do azan at time that suits them or thier congregation.

Please look up the word sunnah in the Quran

And where did it brought us?

The Holy Quran commands us to.

https://www.minhaj.org/english/tid/...n-to-obey-the-Sunnah-of-the-Prophet-saas.html