Fawad Chaudhry launches 'Pakistan's first official' moonsighting website

[M. Sarmad]

I quoted Mufti Taqi Usmani’s version of translation. Why wasn’t that acceptable? The verse in tandem with the Hadith I quoted (i repeated this God knows how many times). Also note translations are interpretations because Arabic is not straight forward in translation.

I will find Maududis version but you will also reject that as his interpretation. Since you have already rejected interpretations of scholars that don’t agree with your views, i wont waste anymore time down this rabbit hole.

I quoted Taqi Usmani's translation before you (in post# 126), and it does not mention moon or moonsighting. Read through the previous posts.

And moon or moonsighting has not been mentioned in the Arabic text (or in almost all authentic translations) of this verse (I repeated this God knows how many times).

Even Umm Muhammad in Sahih International translation that you are referring to has bracketed moonsighting in her translation, meaning that it is her own interpretation of the verse (and not the words of Allah almighty).

So hard for you to understand such a simple thing???

As for Maududi, I asked you to quote his version just because in the one I read (and posted link here as well), he does not say that this verse is about moonsighting.

 

[criticalerror]

I quoted Taqi Usmani's translation before you (in post# 126), and it does not mention moon or moonsighting. Read through the previous posts.

And moon or moonsighting has not been mentioned in the Arabic text (or in almost all authentic translations) of this verse (I repeated this God knows how many times).

Even Umm Muhammad in Sahih International translation that you are referring to has bracketed moonsighting in her translation, meaning that it is her own interpretation of the verse (and not the words of Allah almighty).

So hard for you to understand such a simple thing???

As for Maududi, I asked you to quote his version just because in the one I read (and posted link here as well), he does not say that this verse is about moonsighting.

I quoted the English translation of Taqi Usmani . I also provided the source for that link. What more can i say about that.? You have provided English Translations as far as i recall . None of them were in Urdu.

Also in Sahih International, the word moonsighting is not bracketed. It is the word moon alone that is part of the interpretation.

“So whoever sights [the new moon of] the month, let him fast it; “

What else does she imply by sight? If not the moon?


Whereas I understand everything you have posted , you fail to understand my point.

Also i cannot find the source i had read but i will do you one better. I will quote an interview with Maududi on the subject

https://www.icit-digital.org/articles/interview-with-maulana-maududi

Extract from the above interview published in
The Muslim, Jan-Mar 1969

Do you think Muslims the world over should celebrate Eid on the same day, or should it be according to Moon-sightings in a particular country? Or should timezones be accepted ?

To celebrate Eid on the same day all over the world is neither necessary according to the Shariah, nor is it practically possible or beneficial in any significant way. The moon cannot be sighted on the same day all over the world. This is an astronomical impossibility. Ramadan and Eid have been associated, according to the Shariah, not with the 'birth of the new moon', but with the sighting of the moon.

The moon can be sighted only 25 to 30 hours after its 'birth'. If this 'sighting' of the moon takes place in any eastern country, it must also take place in all the countries to its west. But if it is sighted in a country in the western region, it does not mean that sighting becomes possible in countries which are in the eastern direction. And if sighting is astronomically impossible in the western countries how can any credence be given to the claim of any eastern country that the moon has been sighted there. Any declaration that goes against the established facts can carry no weight, even if it comes from the mouth of any Mufti (juris-consult) of a Muslim country.

There are certain persons who assert that the beginning and the end of Ramadan should be made uniform all the world over and when the moon has been sighted in any one country, all should follow. I am afraid these people do not take into view the facts of geography and astronomy and are, therefore, making an unsound suggestion. The earth is a big planet where differences between sunrise and sunset vary from a few minutes to 24 hours. How is it possible to expect simultaneous sighting of the moon all over the world, or to make others, however distant they may be geographically, act on the basis of the sighting of the moon in a particular country. From the practical viewpoint also, this is bound to create new problems and difficulties. If one sighting is to be followed all over the world, then every year in almost half of the world people will begin their fast in good faith and will have to break that after the so-called sighting. Will this reduce confusion or increase it? If one sighting is to hold valid for the whole world, how would this decision be communicated to people scattered throughout the length and breadth of the world. Have we assumed that those who are in deserts and mountains do possess a radio or transistor to follow the said declaration. The Shariah does not discourage us to use these and other communication-media, but the injunctions of the Shariah are not dependent on or associated with their availability. Ramadan was observed long before these discoveries and is observed today by those persons also who do not possess them. We are talking of 'Eid on the same day' because we have access to certain mass media. But during the last thirteen centuries when people did not even have access to telegraph and telephone how could this have been possible? If the Shariah really wanted to have 'Eid on the same day' then this injunction must have remained impracticable for many centuries and its implementation could take place only after certain discoveries of our own times. This is not the approach of the Shariah and we must not try to impose this upon it. We are free to avail from all beneficial discoveries of our times, but the simplicity of the Shariah is not to be marred in any way.

One thing that should be kept in view is that 'Eid' in Islam is an act of worship and not merely a social function or festivity. We should not look upon it in the same way as others look upon their social functions. The spirit of the ibadah (act of worship) must be jealously guarded.


I could not have said this any better. Highlighted are the important points i tried to make.

 

[M. Sarmad]

I quoted the English translation of Taqi Usmani . I also provided the source for that link. What more can i say about that.? You have provided English Translations as far as i recall . None of them were in Urdu.

So, we both agree that Taqi Usmani hasn't used the word moon (or moonsighting) in his translation of 2:185?

Also in Sahih International, the word moonsighting is not bracketed. It is the word moon alone that is part of the interpretation.

“So whoever sights [the new moon of] the month, let him fast it; “

What else does she imply by sight? If not the moon?

She of course implies moonsighting. But she has bracketed the phrase (the new moon of) to make it clear that it's her own interpretation of the verse and not the words of Allah almighty. You of course are free to follow her interpretation but please refrain from trying to pass off a specific interpretation (that you follow) as the words of Allah almighty.

Also i cannot find the source i had read but i will do you one better. I will quote an interview with Maududi on the subject

https://www.icit-digital.org/articles/interview-with-maulana-maududi

Extract from the above interview published in
The Muslim, Jan-Mar 1969

Do you think Muslims the world over should celebrate Eid on the same day, or should it be according to Moon-sightings in a particular country? Or should timezones be accepted ?

To celebrate Eid on the same day all over the world is neither necessary according to the Shariah, nor is it practically possible or beneficial in any significant way. The moon cannot be sighted on the same day all over the world. This is an astronomical impossibility. Ramadan and Eid have been associated, according to the Shariah, not with the 'birth of the new moon', but with the sighting of the moon.

The moon can be sighted only 25 to 30 hours after its 'birth'. If this 'sighting' of the moon takes place in any eastern country, it must also take place in all the countries to its west. But if it is sighted in a country in the western region, it does not mean that sighting becomes possible in countries which are in the eastern direction. And if sighting is astronomically impossible in the western countries how can any credence be given to the claim of any eastern country that the moon has been sighted there. Any declaration that goes against the established facts can carry no weight, even if it comes from the mouth of any Mufti (juris-consult) of a Muslim country.

There are certain persons who assert that the beginning and the end of Ramadan should be made uniform all the world over and when the moon has been sighted in any one country, all should follow. I am afraid these people do not take into view the facts of geography and astronomy and are, therefore, making an unsound suggestion. The earth is a big planet where differences between sunrise and sunset vary from a few minutes to 24 hours. How is it possible to expect simultaneous sighting of the moon all over the world, or to make others, however distant they may be geographically, act on the basis of the sighting of the moon in a particular country. From the practical viewpoint also, this is bound to create new problems and difficulties. If one sighting is to be followed all over the world, then every year in almost half of the world people will begin their fast in good faith and will have to break that after the so-called sighting. Will this reduce confusion or increase it? If one sighting is to hold valid for the whole world, how would this decision be communicated to people scattered throughout the length and breadth of the world. Have we assumed that those who are in deserts and mountains do possess a radio or transistor to follow the said declaration. The Shariah does not discourage us to use these and other communication-media, but the injunctions of the Shariah are not dependent on or associated with their availability. Ramadan was observed long before these discoveries and is observed today by those persons also who do not possess them. We are talking of 'Eid on the same day' because we have access to certain mass media. But during the last thirteen centuries when people did not even have access to telegraph and telephone how could this have been possible? If the Shariah really wanted to have 'Eid on the same day' then this injunction must have remained impracticable for many centuries and its implementation could take place only after certain discoveries of our own times. This is not the approach of the Shariah and we must not try to impose this upon it. We are free to avail from all beneficial discoveries of our times, but the simplicity of the Shariah is not to be marred in any way.

One thing that should be kept in view is that 'Eid' in Islam is an act of worship and not merely a social function or festivity. We should not look upon it in the same way as others look upon their social functions. The spirit of the ibadah (act of worship) must be jealously guarded.


I could not have said this any better. Highlighted are the important points i tried to make.

Too much for 'brevity', bro.
Anyways, even in this interview, Maududi does not say that 2:185 is about moonsighting.

 

[criticalerror]

So, we both agree that Taqi Usmani hasn't used word moon (or moonsighting) in his translation of 2:185?




She of course implies moonsighting. But she has bracketed the phrase (the new moon of) to make it clear that it's her own interpretation of the verse and not the words of Allah almighty. You of course are free to follow her interpretation but please refrain from trying to pass off a specific interpretation (that you follow) as the words of Allah almighty.



Too much for 'brevity', bro.
Anyways, even in this interview, Maududi does not say that 2:185 talks about moonsighting.

I will agree till such time that i find the text i was referring to. If that was the topic of discussion all along then your problem is solved. Wouldn’t you agree? 2-185 may talk about moon-sighting in tandem with the Hadith i quoted, to which you have no answer since you don’t believe Hadith to be authentic . Whereas , Sunnah is the implementation of the message of Quran, without which we wouldn’t know half the things our religion wanted to teach us.


Our argument never was on this very point that 2-185 is all about moon sighting. I rather have repeatedly said it is only one part of this law of Shariah, which Maududi’s interview has very much proven as well. You cannot brush off everything i say with

Please refrain from trying to pass off a specific interpretation (that you follow) as the words of Allah almighty

I am only making counter arguments, maintaining all the while that it is the interpretation of learned people. You are free to disagree with it.

I will let you take the argument of Maududi not reaffirming the verse of moon sighting, if you could grasp what he said in the quoted interview. Also i could have just copied the link for you to read yourself. Hence the verbosity. Though i avoid it as much as possible. Brevity is the key.

I will reiterate with short points what Maududi said

1) Shariah requires sighting of the moon, rather than calculating the new moon.

2) Islam does not prohibit use of science as an aid, but it cannot be hindered by this or solely dependent on this.

3) The simplicity of Shariah must be maintained , regardless of recent discoveries.

4) Eid is also worship, hence it’s arrival and methods for establishing its arrival should not be trivialized.

 

[M. Sarmad]

I will agree till such time that i find the text i was referring to. If that was the topic of discussion all along then your problem is solved. Wouldn’t you agree? 2-185 may talk about moon-sighting in tandem with the Hadith i quoted, to which you have no answer since you don’t believe Hadith to be authentic . Whereas , Sunnah is the implementation of the message of Quran, without which we wouldn’t know half the things our religion wanted to teach us. .

2:185 does not mention moon (or moonsighting). Period
Interpretations in tandem with secondary sources or distortions are another debate.

Our argument never was on this very point that 2-185 is all about moon sighting. I rather have repeatedly said it is only one part of this law of Shariah, which Maududi’s interview has very much proven as well.

For the last two pages we have been discussing 2:185 ... Our argument was on this very point that whether or not 2:185 mentioned moonsighting.

As for your remaining points, will get back to you to discuss them later

 

[criticalerror]

2:185 does not mention moon (or moonsighting). Period
Interpretations in tandem with secondary sources or distortions are another debate.




For the last two pages we have been discussing 2:185 ... Our argument was on this very point that whether or not 2:185 mentioned moonsighting.

As for your remaining points, will get back on them later

Calling Hadith distortions are excessive no? I am of the view that Sunnah is a far better implementation/interpretation of Quranic laws than we can ever debate. What you believe is totally up to you.
Also note the last two pages spawned this mini debate because you rejected sources from the Hadith. Otherwise the discussion is on whether moon sighting is necessary for Ramzan. That has always been the topic.

 

[M. Sarmad]

Calling Hadith distortions are excessive no? I am of the view that Sunnah is a far better implementation/interpretation of Quranic laws than we can ever debate. What you believe is totally up to you.
Also note the last two pages spawned this mini debate because you rejected sources from the Hadith. Otherwise the discussion is on whether moon sighting is necessary for Ramzan. That has always been the topic.

No, I didn't call Hadith as distortions... Nor did I reject sources of Hadith (I do not believe in wholesale rejection of Hadith)... In fact, my first post on this thread (and to which you replied) was a Sahih Bukhari Hadith... I thought you were better than that

You are free to follow whatever Mullah/Alim/Marja/Mufti or xyz you want. I have absolutely no problem with that. But you should be honest enough not to try pass off your own PoV (or of those whom you follow) as the 'word of Allah almighty'... It's disingenuous, and unacceptable...

 

[criticalerror]

No, I didn't call Hadith as distortions... Nor did I reject sources of Hadith (I do not believe in wholesale rejection of Hadith)... In fact, my first post on this thread (and to which you replied) was a Sahih Bukhari Hadith... I thought you were better than that

You are free to follow whatever Mullah/Alim/Marja/Mufti or xyz you want. I have absolutely no problem with that. But you should be honest enough not to try pass off your own PoV (or of those whom you follow) as the 'word of Allah almighty'... It's disingenuous, and unacceptable...

I can only reply to what you say. In your reply you said ayat with secondary proofs or distortions. . You also said Hadeeth are time bound, lumping them along with fatwas. It is to this that i replied as such. If you do not disagree about Hadeeth then why have you chosen to ignore it as proof that moon sighting is central to establishing Ramzan.

Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) mentioned Ramadan and said, "Do not fast unless you see the crescent (of Ramadan), and do not give up fasting till you see the crescent (of Shawwal), but if the sky is overcast (if you cannot see it), then act on estimation (i.e. count Sha'ban as 30 days).

[Sahih al-Bukhari Book 30, Hadith 16]


As i have repeated many times, this is not even my POV . I have at no time passed off this as my POV or the word of Allah. It is my belief that Sunnah is the implementation of the said word of Allah. That is all. You might have deduced this yourself, that i am marketing it as the word of Allah. I am woefully under-equipped on that count and can’t possibly do that. But i have provided what many people more learned than me have said on the matter. I have even quoted Hadeeth. You should reply to the evidences provided rather than engaging in the effort of debunking my point of views.

 

[M. Sarmad]

...why have you chosen to ignore it as proof that moon sighting is central to establishing Ramzan.

Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) mentioned Ramadan and said, "Do not fast unless you see the crescent (of Ramadan), and do not give up fasting till you see the crescent (of Shawwal), but if the sky is overcast (if you cannot see it), then act on estimation (i.e. count Sha'ban as 30 days).

[Sahih al-Bukhari Book 30, Hadith 16]


As i have repeated many times, this is not even my POV . I have at no time passed off this as my POV or the word of Allah. It is my belief that Sunnah is the implementation of the said word of Allah. That is all. You might have deduced this yourself, that i am marketing it as the word of Allah. I am woefully under-equipped on that count and can’t possibly do that. But i have provided what many people more learned than me have said on the matter. I have even quoted Hadeeth. You should reply to the evidences provided rather than engaging in the effort of debunking my point of views.

https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/fawa...nsighting-website.620546/page-7#post-11499399

https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/fawa...nsighting-website.620546/page-7#post-11499470


When we use technology to replace the naked eye sightings, we do not violate any prophetic injunctions (unless, of course, if one believs that using science and technology is essentially Haram). Quite the contrary, using technology to fully benefit from the divine calculation devices is in fact following the Holy Qur'an in letter and spirit.

 

[criticalerror]

https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/fawa...nsighting-website.620546/page-7#post-11499399

https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/fawa...nsighting-website.620546/page-7#post-11499470


When we use technology to replace the naked eye sightings, we do not violate any prophetic injunctions. Quite the contrary, using technology to fully benefit from the divine calculation devices is in fact following the Holy Qur'an in letter and spirit.

Agreed with you quoting the Hadees. I also agree with the Hadees you quoted.

Now please reply to what you deduce from the Hadees i quoted. The Hadeeth if taken at face value, as it should be, enjoins fasting ONLY when the crescent is SEEN.

 

[M. Sarmad]

Now please reply to what you deduce from the Hadees i quoted. The Hadeeth if taken at face value, as it should be, enjoins fasting ONLY when the crescent is SEEN.

Seeing with the naked eye is not the only way to 'see' something... We aren't living in the seventh century any longer... We have to interpret the Islamic texts in the light of our own experience and the altered conditions of modern life.

 

[Verve]

How was Eid determined during khulfa-e-rashideen's time, especially for areas far far away?

Eid in Madinah and Makkah and Baghdad etc at same time?

@criticalerror @M. Sarmad

 

[criticalerror]

Seeing with the naked eye is not the only way to 'see' something... We aren't living in the seventh century any longer... We have to interpret the Islamic texts in the light of our own experience and the altered conditions of modern life.

Whoever said anything about the naked eye? We use telescopes and all manners of equipment now. My point is you cannot substitute this with calculations. And as per this Hadeeth , it is vindicated. That’s my opinion.

 

[M. Sarmad]

Whoever said anything about the naked eye? We use telescopes and all manners of equipment now. My point is you cannot substitute this with calculations. And as per this Hadeeth , it is vindicated. That’s my opinion.

The Sahih Hadith clearly mentions that early Arabs did not do Hisab/calculations because they were unlettered/illiterate at that time. The Holy Prophet did not order the Muslims to remain illiterate, and not use 'Hisab' till eternity..... If you want us to vindicate your point of view, you're going to have to to prove to us that moon’s calculations are ‘forbidden’ in Islam or that Islam categorically disallows Muslims to use lunar calculations..

Crescent’s calculations are no longer astrologers' estimations. During the last few decades their accuracy has been established beyond doubt by consistent observations.

And even in the early days of Islam when the calculations were not very accurate, a few ulema, in fact, did permit the use of calculations for determining Ramazan and Eid dates. Do some research on it.

How was Eid determined during khulfa-e-rashideen's time, especially for areas far far away?

Eid in Madinah and Makkah and Baghdad etc at same time?

@criticalerror @M. Sarmad

There are at least 3 different opinions of ulema in this regard.

 

[Verve]

There are at least 3 different opinions of ulema in this regard.

Deeni Ulema or Historian Ulema?

Kindly elaborate.

If under One Khalifa, there were different start and Eids in distant areas or otherwise then we have precedent set by the very best of the companions of Prophet PBUH.

I think the focus should be on what the Khulfa-e-rashideen did instead of the interpretations of those who came much after.

Islam had expanded much beyond Arabia during their time.