Father runs over his daughter

[Vassnti]

Ahsan_R while i do agree with your last point i would like to see some proof that rape and violence are more common in western countries than in Muslim countries. One of the biggest problems with such crimes has always been reporting. Even in western countries it is estimated that only 10% of violence against females is ever reported. When women face a situation like below it is a suprise that it is ever reported.

Saudi Arabia's Ministry of Justice is defending a sentence of 200 lashes for the victim of a gang rape, punished because she was in the car of a male who wasn't a relative when the two were attacked.

Exclusive: Saudi Rape Victim Tells Her Story - ABC News

 

[Seadog1]

Few things to say here.

There is no doubt that what the father did was wrong. But, to stick this to the whole culture is not only a blanket statement but derogatory. Let me just say this. If a white American kills a woman, it's the individual. If a muslim does it, it's the culture. Statistically speaking, rapes, domestic violence, and murders are far more common in US than Muslim countries. If they happen less often in Muslim countries, how can you stereotype them? Surely, if its their culture, but it happens more often in your country, surely by pure logic its your culture too.

Secondly, if American members mind answering me, what is the difference between honour killings and the killings of women (sometimes a result of domestic violence) you see in US which are more common than honour killings? Why is one seen as much worse than other? I believe its just a name difference and thats about.

Lastly, that story about Christian convert is complete crap. Her father never threatened her. If he wanted to kill her, he would have done it because last time she was with him, he knew she had converted. Additionally, the family allowed her to be a cheerleader and gave her a lot of freedom. This is basically only a muslim family by name who do not really do anything religious.

There is a differance:

These cases show the killings to be primarily a Muslim-on-Muslim crime...The victims are largely teenage daughters or young women. Wives are victims but to a lesser extent. And, unlike most Western domestic violence, honor killings are carefully planned. The perpetrator's family may warn the victim repeatedly over a period of years that she will be killed if she dishonors her family by refusing to veil, rebuffing an arranged marriage, or becoming too Westernized. Most important, only honor killings involve multiple family members.

Seldom is domestic violence celebrated, even by its perpetrators. In the West, wife batterers are ostracized. Here, there is an important difference in honor crimes. Muslims who commit or assist in the commission of honor killings view these killings as heroic and even view the murder as the fulfillment of a religious obligation. A Turkish study of prisoners found no social stigma attached to honor murderers

90 percent of honor murders in the West are committed by Muslims against Muslims

 

[SMC]

Ahsan_R while i do agree with your last point i would like to see some proof that rape and violence are more common in western countries than in Muslim countries. One of the biggest problems with such crimes has always been reporting. Even in western countries it is estimated that only 10% of violence against females is ever reported. When women face a situation like below it is a suprise that it is ever reported.

Rapes (per capita) by country. Definition, graph and map.

That's for rapes. Interesting to note the countries near the top. Yes you might say that not all rapes are reported. But even if we assumed that 100% of rapes are reported in US, and, let's say 25% in muslim countries, there would still be more rapes in US.

As for domestic violence homocides,

http://www.mass.gov/Eeops/docs/programs/fjj/vawa/100909_DV_homicide_rpt.doc (Page 6)

Keep in mind this only includes intimate deaths (i.e spouse/ex-spouse or boyfriend/girlfriend). In Pakistan for instance, number of "honour killings" are said to be around 300-400 each year. I do not have a source for this but I remember reading this on Yahoo and you can probably do a google search on this. Keep in mind that these are murders so the probably of all murders being reported is very high, contrary to rape.

As for domestic violence, there are no statistics for that but from the previous two statistics it shouldn't be too hard to make a logical conclusion that it happens more often in US.

 

[SMC]

There is a differance:

These cases show the killings to be primarily a Muslim-on-Muslim crime...The victims are largely teenage daughters or young women. Wives are victims but to a lesser extent. And, unlike most Western domestic violence, honor killings are carefully planned. The perpetrator's family may warn the victim repeatedly over a period of years that she will be killed if she dishonors her family by refusing to veil, rebuffing an arranged marriage, or becoming too Westernized. Most important, only honor killings involve multiple family members.

Muslim-on-muslim is really irrelevent here. You'd expect it to be so. If we are to compare it to domestic violence, you have to remember that domestic violence or domestic violence homicides normally between people of same race, religion (if they are practicing), etc. So really that is not relevent.

Again, carefully planning is really irrelevent. The motive in both is the same: to kill someone. Whether you plan it for several days or just planned it for 10 minutes, result is the same and one is not better than the other.

Multiple family members involvement in some cases is true. That might be the only difference that is relevent because it means multiple people are ok with the person getting killed.

Seldom is domestic violence celebrated, even by its perpetrators. In the West, wife batterers are ostracized. Here, there is an important difference in honor crimes. Muslims who commit or assist in the commission of honor killings view these killings as heroic and even view the murder as the fulfillment of a religious obligation. A Turkish study of prisoners found no social stigma attached to honor murderers

It is often celebrated by its perpetrators, let's not mistake that. No one views them as heros except the murderers themselves.

Overall, I do not see a whole lot of difference between the two to make one sound much worse and barbaric than the other.

 

[Gin ka Pakistan]

Some kill their Girls even before they are born :<
==================================
Canadian sex-selection abortions exposed

Theresa Smyth
Family and Society Reporter

It is well known that certain Asian cultures have alarming distortions in birth sex ratios. In Indian culture, girls are seen as an economic burden because of dowry payments. Yet, wealthier Indian women, who are better-educated, are twice as likely to abort as their poorer counterparts. India&#8217;s national sex ratio is 109 males to every 100 females, but there are large regional variations. The Punjab&#8217;s ratio is 126 males to every 100 females. It is estimated that up to 500,000 unborn Indian girls are lost to abortion every year, for a total of perhaps 10 million missing females. Research has demonstrated that the proportion of subsequent female births to Indian families decline after each daughter.

Canadian sex-selection abortions exposed - Interim, July 2006

=============================================
Selective abortion blamed for India's missing girls

LONDON (Reuters) - About 10 million female fetuses may have been aborted in India over the past two decades, according to research published on Monday.

A team of scientists who analyzed female fertility figures from a national survey of 6 million people in India found that there were about half a million fewer girls born in the country in 1997 than expected.

Selective abortion blamed for India's missing girls - International News - redOrbit

 

[SecularHumanist]

Rapes (per capita) by country. Definition, graph and map.

That's for rapes. Interesting to note the countries near the top. Yes you might say that not all rapes are reported. But even if we assumed that 100% of rapes are reported in US, and, let's say 25% in muslim countries, there would still be more rapes in US.

Other than the fact that it is not reported that much in muslim countries, there is also the difference in laws. In the US, if you have sex with someone under the influence of drugs or alcohol, you can be charged with rape. Additionally, the age to give consent for sex is 18 in the US. Keep this in mind.

Reporting in the muslim countries has to be really low for sure. It brings shame to the family. There are a lot of mukhtara bibi's in Pakistan and other muslim countreis. Many Pakistani women reported rape and instead got punished because they could not provide 4 witnesses for the rape (some law that was ).

 

[Novice09]

May the soul rest in peace

If people are really concerned about their religion and traditions, they have to educate their children about them. When I went to visit one of my relative in France I was really shocked to see that how they have inherited different religions and cultures. It's a Hindu family with Hindu, Christan and Muslim as daughter-in-laws and a Muslim as their son-in-law. All of them leaving happily and they have Pakistani neighbors who welcomed me as I belong to their family

No religion thought to kill any one. It guides you to live a sacred and peaceful life.

 

[SMC]

Please, let's not fall into the stereotypes. No, it doesn't bring shame. The laws have changed, and there are several hundred death sentences given out in Pakistan for rape each year.

 

[SecularHumanist]

Few things to say here.
Let me just say this. If a white American kills a woman, it's the individual. If a muslim does it, it's the culture. Statistically speaking, rapes, domestic violence, and murders are far more common in US than Muslim countries. If they happen less often in Muslim countries, how can you stereotype them? Surely, if its their culture, but it happens more often in your country, surely by pure logic its your culture too.

Murder, rape, and domestic violence exists in ALL countries, but honor killing seems to be found in muslim countries primarily. Even the cases of honor killings reported in western countries have been done by muslim immigrants.

Yes it is the culture. When did you see those white Americans justify it by saying it was done 'for the honour of the family'? That is what all the honour killers say. The perceived dishonor is normally the result of (a) utilizing dress codes unacceptable to the family (b) wanting out of an arranged marriage or choosing to marry by own choice or (c) engaging in certain sexual acts.

Ever heard of Karo-Kari? Karo-kari - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

According to the UN in 2002:

"The report of the Special Rapporteur ... concerning cultural practices in the family that are violent towards women (E/CN.4/2002/83), indicated that honour killings had been reported in Egypt, Jordan, Lebanon, Morocco, Pakistan, the Syrian Arab Republic, Turkey, Yemen, and other Mediterranean and Persian Gulf countries, and that they had also taken place in western countries such as France, Germany and the United Kingdom, within migrant communities."

It definitely seems to be a muslim phenomena.

Secondly, if American members mind answering me, what is the difference between honour killings and the killings of women (sometimes a result of domestic violence) you see in US which are more common than honour killings? Why is one seen as much worse than other? I believe its just a name difference and thats about.

The fact that mostly women seem to be bringing the shame to families in muslim countries says a lot about the conditions of women in the muslim world. Killing a woman for whatever reason is wrong, but justifying a killing by saying it was for honor is only done in muslim countries. What honor is there in killing? It is usually done in muslim countries because of an affair or romance.

Lastly, that story about Christian convert is complete crap. Her father never threatened her. If he wanted to kill her, he would have done it because last time she was with him, he knew she had converted. Additionally, the family allowed her to be a cheerleader and gave her a lot of freedom. This is basically only a muslim family by name who do not really do anything religious.

What is wrong with being a cheerleader? Maybe the story was crap, but we all know what punishment apostasy carries according to Islam- death.

 

[SMC]

You're missing the point my post is trying to get across. Your reply is so long that I will not bother replying because I have limited time.

 

[Ahmad]

it is more to do with barbaric part of the culture rather than islam. islam does not say to kill innocent peopole.