Fateh Submarine | News & Discussions

[Penguin]

Hey Penguin, you should live up to your name and keep your hands off writing.
Please do your homework before saying anything. Here are the facts about the type 206 subs and they are true.

Several years ago broke through U24, a German U-boat - now obsolete - type 206 A, during an exercise in the Caribbean, the defense of the U.S. carrier "Enterprise" and the simulated firing of a torpedo fan. U.S. Admiral said to have been furious when he was shown the photos by the German periscope.

One other submarine of the same type should have circled a U.S. hunter-killer of the "Los Angeles" class in a short distance several times, without the Americans discovered it. Witnesses reported that the U.S. officers who were on board the German boat, were "beads of sweat on his forehead."
The records of the German submarine fleet (Google translated from German)


Here is another one:
American Admiral was in a frenzy

Several years ago, U24 – German submarine today is obsolete type 206 A – during exercises in the Caribbean has been propeller polishing of ship able to overcome the defense system of the American aircraft carrier «Enterprise» and imitated launch torpedo fan. It is said that the American Admiral was beside himself when he was shown photographs taken through the German periscope.
Another boat of the same type allegedly repeatedly bypassed in close proximity American hunter class ” Los Angeles “, cleaning of sea chests in Ukraine and the Americans did not notice anything . Witnesses say that the American officers who were at that time on board a German submarine, “the lobby were beads of sweat .”
American Admiral was in a frenzy | Sea marine news for You

Or better yet:
USS Enterprise im Fadenkreuz von U 24 (Bundesmarine)

I think you are not properly comprehending my post. There is no question that conventional subs (including Dutch, Norwegian, Swedish, German and British boats) have been succesful in penetrating CVN escort screens during exercises in the past. I've pointed this out on this forum several times. This vulnerability is the reason the US leased a Swedish Gotland SSK sub some years ago. However, that was not the point of my previous post, which was to respond to the assertion that the 206a is somehow a fantastic supersub, and by extension the Iranian sub also.

See. e.g.
General
Unterseeboot Klasse U 206 A
Kobben-class submarine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Aircraft carrier USS America (CV 66) photographed by the RNthN Tijgerhaai (2), Oct 1993 Mediterranean. (Photo: © Collection J.J. Kragten). Dutch Submarines: Periscope shots

 

[The SC]

I think you are not properly comprehending my post. There is no question that conventional subs (including Dutch, Norwegian, Swedish, German and British boats) have been succesful in penetrating CVN escort screens during exercises in the past. I've pointed this out on this forum several times. This vulnerability is the reason the US leased a Swedish Gotland SSK sub some years ago. However, that was not the point of my previous post, which was to respond to the assertion that the 206a is somehow a fantastic supersub, and by extension the Iranian sub also.

Type 206 was a fantastic submarine in its time not now, today the fantastic one is type 212, the Fateh sub is much more sophisticated and modern than type 206 and thus much better, the analogy was to say that a 600 tons submarine can be very efficient in it role, even the midget ones the Ghadirs are very efficient in their particular role.

 

[Penguin]

Type 206 was a fantastic submarine in its time not now, today the fantastic one is type 212, the Fateh sub is much more sophisticated and modern than type 206 and thus much better, the analogy was to say that a 600 tons submarine can be very efficient in it role, even the midget ones the Ghadirs are very efficient in their particular role.

No doubt it - and subs like it - can be very efficient in certain roles. Then again, one also has to consider the inherent limitations of these small boats e.g. in terms of endurance. Perhaps the Fateh is 'much more modern' than the Type 206 (although... considering Israel decommed its last Gal boats early 2000 and Germany retired their last 206s only in 2010, and Denmark retired their even older 205s only in 2004 ...), but isn't the question how it compares to that fantastic 212A and submarines like it? It is quite an assumption to state Iran's fledgling submarine building capability is on a par with the established ones like those in e.g. Germany, or Sweden or even Russia.

 

[The SC]

Perhaps not, but we are not talking about the same category, the 212A is 2000 tons, even Bessat will be around 1200 tons but with a long range. So what is inside is important and the technologies involved both in construction , material and so forth are very advanced by world standards, thus these little subs are a value plus plus to the Iranian navy for what they are intended to be used for.
For the 212A one should compare it to the kilo class subs or what NATO calls them the black holes.
Furthermore, the Fateh and the Bessat will use fuel cells as a silent propulsion mode.
Here are some characteristics of the Fateh Submarine:
Range: 6,700 km at 8 knots, snorkeling
Endurance: 35 days

 

[Penguin]

Perhaps not, but we are not talking about the same category, the 212A is 2000 tons, even Bessat will be around 1200 tons but with a long range. So what is inside is important and the technologies involved both in construction , material and so forth are very advanced by world standards, thus these little subs are a value plus plus to the Iranian navy for what they are intended to be used for.
For the 212A one should compare it to the kilo class subs or what NATO calls them the black holes.
Furthermore, the Fateh and the Bessat will use fuel cells as a silent propulsion mode.
Here are some characteristics of the Fateh Submarine:
Range: 6,700 km at 8 knots, snorkeling
Endurance: 35 days

You need not compare the tonnage but rather the technology of a submarine. Put different, tonnage is irrelevant, weapon and sensor technology and shipbuildig technology are relevant.

What internationally recognized authority (person, company, institution) has confirmed the bolded statement? What is that statement based on?

Type 212A is a (far) newer a design than Kilo, the first of which entered service in the Soviet navy in 1980. The German government placed an initial order of four 212A submarines in 1998. The first 212A was commissioned in 2005.

The original version of the Kilo vessels were designated project 877 Paltus (Halibut0 in Russia. A more advanced version is designated as Improved Kilo in the west and Project 636 Varshavyanka in Russia. The first 636 commissioned in 1997. Iran operates 3 boats of the 877EKM type..

The term 'black hole' in relation to Kilo class refers to their level of sophistication relative to earlier russian submarines, which is due in no small part to the use of effective anechoic tiles. These absorb the sound waves of active sonar, which results in a reduction and distortion of the return signal. They also help attenuate sounds that are emitted from the submarine, thus reducing the range by which the sub may be detected by passive sonar. The Project 636 Varshavyanka submarine (NATO – Improved Kilo) was called “The Black Hole” by the US Navy for its talent to just disappear when being tracked. The uncanny ability to just disappear from sonar and seemingly from the whole ocean is a attribute that unnerves ocean going military vessels to this day.

 

[The SC]

You need not compare the tonnage but rather the technology of a submarine. Put different, tonnage is irrelevant, weapon and sensor technology and shipbuildig technology are relevant.

What internationally recognized authority (person, company, institution) has confirmed the bolded statement? What is that statement based on?

Type 212A is a (far) newer a design than Kilo, the first of which entered service in the Soviet navy in 1980. The German government placed an initial order of four 212A submarines in 1998. The first 212A was commissioned in 2005.

The original version of the Kilo vessels were designated project 877 Paltus (Halibut0 in Russia. A more advanced version is designated as Improved Kilo in the west and Project 636 Varshavyanka in Russia. The first 636 commissioned in 1997. Iran operates 3 boats of the 877EKM type..

The term 'black hole' in relation to Kilo class refers to their level of sophistication relative to earlier russian submarines, which is due in no small part to the use of effective anechoic tiles. These absorb the sound waves of active sonar, which results in a reduction and distortion of the return signal. They also help attenuate sounds that are emitted from the submarine, thus reducing the range by which the sub may be detected by passive sonar. The Project 636 Varshavyanka submarine (NATO – Improved Kilo) was called “The Black Hole” by the US Navy for its talent to just disappear when being tracked. The uncanny ability to just disappear from sonar and seemingly from the whole ocean is a attribute that unnerves ocean going military vessels to this day.

That statement is my own jugement based on technologies the West has no idea about, like you seem to have found out for the kilo class submarine and why it is called 'the black hole', The chinese Submarine technology has proved to be very efficient too, if we refer to what happened in the pacific ocean during the US manoeuvres.
As for Iran, a country that masters the whole nuclear cycle, missile advanced technologies or even very advanced like the MIRV and pin-point accuracy, space technologies (advanced by world standards if you can send an animal to space and back); satellite technologies, space centers and radars, Radar technologies AESA and more, aerospace technolgies, building their own airplanes , fighter planes, stealth technologies, air land and sea, advanced or very advanced UAV's, overhauling the kilo class submarines, and building advanced midget submarines(that can fire torpedos and missiles) that are a big concern to the American fleet like it was said by an American Admiral and many more technologies that are advanced by any world standards one choses to measure with.
I based my judgement also on different articles from the Iranian admirals about the capacities of the new Fateh submarine dating from at least 2 years ago, where they stated tat while it will have, 30% of the weight of the kilo, it will have 70% of it capacities, just to name one characteristic, there are many others, like the use of 12 different sonars, the capacity to fire missiles as well as 'Hout' and other torpedos, and the capacity to navigate for 35 days without ressuply, they also mentioned stealth and the fuel cell technologies.
If you do not find these characteristics very advanced by world standards, than either you live out of this world or you are blinded by your own biases.

 

[Penguin]

That statement is my own jugement based on technologies the West has no idea about, like you seem to have found out for the kilo class submarine and why it is called 'the black hole', The chinese Submarine technology has proved to be very efficient too, if we refer to what happened in the pacific ocean during the US manoeuvres.

What happend in the pacific? A chinese sub emerged in/near a carrier group? So what. As illustrate amply, ANY contemporary SSK can porbably pose a challenge. And what would you have the US do, sink the sub if they could (and I have no doubt they could) during peacetime. It proves .... 0. Besides, for all its progress, Chinese submarine technology is still lagging US and German technology.So, how would CHinese sub technology - if shared - somehow instantly put Iran ahead of those countries, or even Russia. That is just flawed!.

As for Iran, a country that masters the whole nuclear cycle, missile advanced technologies or even very advanced like the MIRV and pin-point accuracy, space technologies (advanced by world standards if you can send an animal to space and back); satellite technologies, space centers and radars, Radar technologies AESA and more, aerospace technolgies, building their own airplanes , fighter planes, stealth technologies, air land and sea, advanced or very advanced UAV's, overhauling the kilo class submarines, and building advanced midget submarines(that can fire torpedos and missiles) that are a big concern to the American fleet like it was said by an American Admiral and many more technologies that are advanced by any world standards one choses to measure with.

You seem to equate anything that isn't cheering on Iran as an attack on it's capabilities. Nowhere have I stated or suggested that Iran has no capabilities. But that doesn't mean I can't look critically at what is being said here (with little substantiation).

I based my judgement also on different articles from the Iranian admirals about the capacities of the new Fateh submarine dating from at least 2 years ago, where they stated tat while it will have, 30% of the weight of the kilo, it will have 70% of it capacities, just to name one characteristic, there are many others, like the use of 12 different sonars, the capacity to fire missiles as well as 'Hout' and other torpedos, and the capacity to navigate for 35 days without ressuply, they also mentioned stealth and the fuel cell technologies.

And how is that 30/70 ratio different from e.g. Type 206 compared to a larger contemporary? What are you trying to prove? Would you like to list the 12 different sonars (can you)? And do you know anything about the sonar package on, say, a type 212A or 214. It is just rambling on.

If you do not find these characteristics very advanced by world standards, than either you live out of this world or you are blinded by your own biases.

You are entitled to you opinions about me. But unless you start making REAL comparisons, I'm sticking to my guns.

Cheers, mate!

 

[The SC]

Stick to your opinion , I just told you it is biased against Iran and anything that is not western.
A chinese sub showing up undetected in the middle of a US fleet, is nothing for you but for the American admiral it was very significant, they even asked the chinese to visit the sub, and the latters were so confident in their technology that they have allowed the Americans to visit one. So most of your thoughts are obviously flowed by you own thought patterns brainwashed by the media you follow, you can not help it, you seem so limited in your thoughts that you can not be objective and escape from your own opinion whatever the real life facts are. If you want thorough comparisons, go ask the Iranian admirals personnaly, do you really think that will give that information? they said it will have 12 sonars and the rest, I believe them because they have no reason to lie, otherwise, they would have said nothing.
This is real life and they know they are facing real enemies and real threats, unlike you, doing cybertalk.
The Western countries like to showcase their military products the same way they market commercial products because that how they finance their R&D.

 

[Penguin]

Stick to your opinion , I just told you it is biased against Iran and anything that is not western.

Balony. Show me my negative post on Chinese, India, Russian Japanese, Korean, Israeli, Taiwanese equipments.

A chinese sub showing up undetected in the middle of a US fleet, is nothing for you but for the American admiral it was very significant, they even asked the chinese to visit the sub, and the latters were so confident in their technology that they have allowed the Americans to visit one. So most of your thoughts are obviously flowed by you own thought patterns brainwashed by the media you follow, you can not help it, you seem so limited in your thoughts that you can not be objective and escape from your own opinion whatever the real life facts are. If you want thorough comparisons, go ask the Iranian admirals personnaly, do you really think that will give that information? they said it will have 12 sonars and the rest, I believe them because they have no reason to lie, otherwise, they would have said nothing.

Fine. But does that mean you also have to stop using your brain: what kinds of sonar can those be? Think about it...

For the 212A, the key gear is:
TAS-3 passive low-frequency towed array sonar (housed in the sail so it stays clear of the propellor when deployed)
FAS-3 flank array sonar for low/ medium-frequency detection (hull mounted)
STN Atlas Elektronik MOA 3070 minedetectionsonar (dual mounted on different locations about the hull)
Klasse 212A onderzeeboten
Type 212A - Conventionally-Powered Attack Submarine - History, Specs and Pictures - Navy Ships
The Naval Institute Guide to World Naval Weapon Systems - Norman Friedman - Google Boeken

There probably is a depth sounder (technically a sonar device, but is that really what we are interested in in as far as combat-related sensors - for detecting the enemy - are concerned?

Did they arrive at 12 by counting individual hull mounted arrays, that together comprise a single system?

Think.

This is real life and they know they are facing real enemies and real threats, unlike you, doing cybertalk.
The Western countries like to showcase their military products the same way they market commercial products because that how they finance their R&D.

So, what is it YOU are doing here yourself?

 

[The SC]

Balony. Show me my negative post on Chinese, India, Russian Japanese, Korean, Israeli, Taiwanese equipments.


Fine. But does that mean you also have to stop using your brain: what kinds of sonar can those be? Think about it...

For the 212A, the key gear is:
TAS-3 passive low-frequency towed array sonar (housed in the sail so it stays clear of the propellor when deployed)
FAS-3 flank array sonar for low/ medium-frequency detection (hull mounted)
STN Atlas Elektronik MOA 3070 minedetectionsonar (dual mounted on different locations about the hull)
Klasse 212A onderzeeboten
Type 212A - Conventionally-Powered Attack Submarine - History, Specs and Pictures - Navy Ships
The Naval Institute Guide to World Naval Weapon Systems - Norman Friedman - Google Boeken

There probably is a depth sounder (technically a sonar device, but is that really what we are interested in in as far as combat-related sensors - for detecting the enemy - are concerned?

Did they arrive at 12 by counting individual hull mounted arrays, that together comprise a single system?

Think.


So, what is it YOU are doing here yourself?

You get a bit too personnal in your comments. you like to fight in cyberwords, I was talking about the real life situation Iranians are facing and you are not aware of that. they said 12 sonars, and they didn't give the specs, Hope you understand why. Unlike the Germans the Iranians don't have other nations to protect them, apart from China and maybe Russia if their own economic security is jeopardized by an attack on Iran. And even though, you shouldn't believe what Germans shows you, because they are holding fast o their newest technologies, just think why the 212-A is not for sell, you can get the 214, the commercial variant.
This is a bit of what an Iranian Admiral said about the Fateh submarine: 'Equipped with advanced sensors while reducing radar and sound effects and having secure communications systems for exchanging data with naval units and air units, Fateh [Submarine] has become a part of Iran's naval defence system.'

 

[Penguin]

You accuse me of bias (without ANY substantiation), and then say I get too personal?
No substantive response to general questions about sonar
12 sonars, what they can be....
active, passive type x bow, flank, towed arrays, mine avoidance, depth sounder
It still don't add up
Functions?

The US Los Angeles class submarines (SSN) are equipped with a comprehensive suite of sonars:

1. TB-23/29 thin line passive towed array (to be replaced by the Lockheed Martin TB-29A under development),
2. BQG 5D wide aperture flank array,
3. BQQ 5D/E low frequency passive and active search and attack sonar,
4. Ametek BQS 15 close range high frequency active sonar also used for ice detection,
5. MIDAS (Mine and Ice Detection Avoidance) System high frequency active sonar and
6. Raytheon SADS-TG active detection sonar.
7. A Near-term Mine Reconnaissance System, NMRS, is being installed. The NMRS is a fibre-optic controlled vehicle which is equipped with AQS 14 side-scan sonar. The launch and recovery of the reconnaissance vehicle is via a torpedo tube.

SSN-688 Los Angeles-class - Navy Ships

That's 7 sonars for what probably is one of the worlds most comprehensively fitted boats.

Spherical active/passive arrays
Light Weight Wide Aperture Arrays
TB-16, TB-29, and future towed arrays
High-frequency chin and sail arrays

SSN-774 Virginia-class NSSN New Attack Submarine - Navy Ships

Virginia class submarines are equipped with

1. a bow-mounted spherical active/passive sonar array,
2. a wide aperture lightweight fiber optic sonar array (three flat panels mounted low along either side of the hull), as well as
3. two high frequency active sonars mounted in the sail and keel (under the bow).
4. The submarines are also equipped with a low frequency towed sonar array and
5. a high frequency towed sonar array.[14]

The chin-mounted (below the bow) high frequency sonar supplements the (spherical/LAB) main sonar array enabling safer operations in coastal waters as well as improving ASW performance

Virginia-class submarine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

VIrginia class SSN, some 6 different sonars.

You get a bit too personnal in your comments. you like to fight in cyberwords, I was talking about the real life situation Iranians are facing and you are not aware of that. they said 12 sonars, and they didn't give the specs, Hope you understand why. Unlike the Germans the Iranians don't have other nations to protect them, apart from China and maybe Russia if their own economic security is jeopardized by an attack on Iran. And even though, you shouldn't believe what Germans shows you, because they are holding fast o their newest technologies, just think why the 212-A is not for sell, you can get the 214, the commercial variant.
This is a bit of what an Iranian Admiral said about the Fateh submarine: 'Equipped with advanced sensors while reducing radar and sound effects and having secure communications systems for exchanging data with naval units and air units, Fateh [Submarine] has become a part of Iran's naval defence system.'

The German government placed an initial order of four Type 212A submarines in 1998. Besides Gemany, Italy operates the 212A. In the same year the Italian government placed an order of two U212A submarines built by Fincantieri for the Marina Militare (Italian Navy) at Muggiano shipyard, designated as the Todaro class. The German Navy ordered two additional, improved submarines in 2006, to be delivered from 2012 on. On 21 April 2008 the Italian Navy ordered a second batch of submarine in the same configuration of the original ones. While the boats' equipment is similar to that of the German Type 212, they use different torpedoes and electro-optic masts. In addition, the submarines had to be adapted to operate for longer patrols in the warmer, more saline waters of the Mediterranean, which cannot be used as coolant without refrigeration.Poland announced in Dec. 2013 they will not buy, but only lease two U212-A's, on account of not meeting "requirements of tactical and technical equipment developed by the military, including in particular the propulsion system, missile weapons and rescue system". Poland was also offered a lease option (FEBRUARY m Poland gives thumbs down to German subs - The Local

The Italian shipyard Fincantieri offers two vessels for export:

• U212A: diesel-electric submarine constructed in partnership with Germany's HDW; and
• S 1000 concept vessel: diesel-electric submarine using AIP technology under development in cooperation with Russian's Rubin Naval Design Bureau.

 

[The SC]

You accuse me of bias (without ANY substantiation), and then say I get too personal?
No substantive response to general questions about sonar
12 sonars, what they can be....
active, passive type x bow, flank, towed arrays, mine avoidance, depth sounder
It still don't add up
Functions?

The US Los Angeles class submarines (SSN) are equipped with a comprehensive suite of sonars:

1. TB-23/29 thin line passive towed array (to be replaced by the Lockheed Martin TB-29A under development),
2. BQG 5D wide aperture flank array,
3. BQQ 5D/E low frequency passive and active search and attack sonar,
4. Ametek BQS 15 close range high frequency active sonar also used for ice detection,
5. MIDAS (Mine and Ice Detection Avoidance) System high frequency active sonar and
6. Raytheon SADS-TG active detection sonar.
7. A Near-term Mine Reconnaissance System, NMRS, is being installed. The NMRS is a fibre-optic controlled vehicle which is equipped with AQS 14 side-scan sonar. The launch and recovery of the reconnaissance vehicle is via a torpedo tube.

SSN-688 Los Angeles-class - Navy Ships

That's 7 sonars for what probably is one of the worlds most comprehensively fitted boats.

Spherical active/passive arrays
Light Weight Wide Aperture Arrays
TB-16, TB-29, and future towed arrays
High-frequency chin and sail arrays

SSN-774 Virginia-class NSSN New Attack Submarine - Navy Ships

Virginia class submarines are equipped with

1. a bow-mounted spherical active/passive sonar array,
2. a wide aperture lightweight fiber optic sonar array (three flat panels mounted low along either side of the hull), as well as
3. two high frequency active sonars mounted in the sail and keel (under the bow).
4. The submarines are also equipped with a low frequency towed sonar array and
5. a high frequency towed sonar array.[14]

The chin-mounted (below the bow) high frequency sonar supplements the (spherical/LAB) main sonar array enabling safer operations in coastal waters as well as improving ASW performance

Virginia-class submarine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

VIrginia class SSN, some 6 different sonars.


The German government placed an initial order of four Type 212A submarines in 1998. Besides Gemany, Italy operates the 212A. In the same year the Italian government placed an order of two U212A submarines built by Fincantieri for the Marina Militare (Italian Navy) at Muggiano shipyard, designated as the Todaro class. The German Navy ordered two additional, improved submarines in 2006, to be delivered from 2012 on. On 21 April 2008 the Italian Navy ordered a second batch of submarine in the same configuration of the original ones. While the boats' equipment is similar to that of the German Type 212, they use different torpedoes and electro-optic masts. In addition, the submarines had to be adapted to operate for longer patrols in the warmer, more saline waters of the Mediterranean, which cannot be used as coolant without refrigeration.Poland announced in Dec. 2013 they will not buy, but only lease two U212-A's, on account of not meeting "requirements of tactical and technical equipment developed by the military, including in particular the propulsion system, missile weapons and rescue system". Poland was also offered a lease option (FEBRUARY m Poland gives thumbs down to German subs - The Local

The Italian shipyard Fincantieri offers two vessels for export:

• U212A: diesel-electric submarine constructed in partnership with Germany's HDW; and
• S 1000 concept vessel: diesel-electric submarine using AIP technology under development in cooperation with Russian's Rubin Naval Design Bureau.

The Iranians said 12 different sonars without giving any specs, go figure. All in all it is a very advanced submarine in the midget category, and you try to compare that with the biggest submarines in the world with spherical sonars for thousands of kilometers range, you should at least keep a sense of proportions here. So by any world standard the Fateh is a very advanced and potent submarine in its class and the thing is, it is the only one today in that class.
For the 212, you should ask if they offered the 212 or the 212-A and for whom, Poland is a NATO country, they can get the tech or better anyway, for the Italians, I do remember, but there were unacceptable strings attached to that offer, otherwise most countries of the world would have been interested, and many went for the commercial 214 that had no strings attached and offered JVs like Turkey or South Korea. Imagine how many countries were bidding for the old type 206 lately not even the 209.
There is only one country that has almost the same thing as the Germans and that is Israel, and eventhough it is a batched sub made to the specs of Israel. the only advantage is that they get them for free, apparently because a German firm was working in Saddam's Iraq, and those free subs are an apology from Germany...
As for Poland here are the real latest news: “The Polish MoD has authorized the navy to change their specifications so that the U-212A could fit the new specifications,” they said. "For the cash-strapped Polish Ministry of Defence this offer [of leasing the submarines] is a “gift” which will avoid a costly tender and certainly an endless diplomatic row [with the Germans]."
From the same article you've mentionned.

 

[Penguin]

The Iranians said 12 different sonars without giving any specs, go figure. All in all it is a very advanced submarine in the midget category, and you try to compare that with the biggest submarines in the world with spherical sonars for thousands of kilometers range, you should at least keep a sense of proportions here. So by any world standard the Fateh is a very advanced and potent submarine in its class and the thing is, it is the only one today in that class.
For the 212, you should ask if they offered the 212 or the 212-A and for whom, Poland is a NATO country, they can get the tech or better anyway, for the Italians, I do remember, but there were unacceptable strings attached to that offer, otherwise most countries of the world would have been interested, and many went for the commercial 214 that had no strings attached and offered JVs like Turkey or South Korea. Imagine how many countries were bidding for the old type 206 lately not even the 209.
There is only one country that has almost the same thing as the Germans and that is Israel, and eventhough it is a batched sub made to the specs of Israel. the only advantage is that they get them for free, apparently because a German firm was working in Saddam's Iraq, and those free subs are an apology from Germany...
As for Poland here are the real latest news: “The Polish MoD has authorized the navy to change their specifications so that the U-212A could fit the new specifications,” they said. "For the cash-strapped Polish Ministry of Defence this offer [of leasing the submarines] is a “gift” which will avoid a costly tender and certainly an endless diplomatic row [with the Germans]."
From the same article you've mentionned.

Any submarine needs sonar to be effective and sonartechnology is what it is. Perhaps the fact that some of the biggest sub do not mount 12 sonars should tell you something ...? Doesn't 12 sonars into a 500 ton submarine make you wonder?

The whole sonar discussion, while interesting, does not prove anything about the Fateh. For now we just have to take some government official's word for it. And it is not that Iranian government hasn't called corvettes destroyers etc. Plus, I dare you to show the posts I made here that were negative about the Fateh. Quite the contrary.

No 212 ever entered into production, only the 212A ( Type 212 ) . Are you perhaps confused with the 214? Italy in fact has the 212A. Poland in fact was offered 212A but declined to purchase (reasons were explained in the article I poisted links to, and did not have to do with any strings). The fact that both Italy and Poland are NATO countries does not detract from the fact that your claim Germany was the only user of the 212A, that it wasn't exported, is incorrect. Hence, the comparison with Israel's Dolphin class is also incorrect. Italy offers the 212A boat for export too. But 212A it is a highly specialized and therefor expensive boat. That is why the cheaper export oriented 214 was developed, which is the boat the NATO countries Portugal, Greece and Turkey have adopted. Incidentally, all three these contries already operated the 209.

The export-oriented 214 is a new boat to succeed the 209 and while it shares certain features with the 212A, such as the AIP fuel cell propulsion, it is not identical. For example, the 212A is constructed of nonmagnetic materials and the Type 214 isn't. Nonmagnetic steel is very expensive en difficult to produce. And not all export customers would require this, or could afford it (i.e. this featues limits the export potential). I suspect the 212A's acoustically optimised equipment is also ahead of that of the 214.
ThyssenKrupp Marine Systems
ThyssenKrupp Marine Systems

The Type 214 has 5 different sonars:
Medium frequency passive sonar
flank array
very low frequency towed array
pasive/active sonar for firecontrol
http://www.usnwc.edu/getattachment/...RIGHT-SUBMARINE-FOR-LURKING-IN-THE-LITTO.aspx
This does not include minedetection sonar and bottom navigation echo sounder, which would bring the number of sonars to 7

Re Dolphin: only the latest units are similar to 212A and Israel did pay quite some money for those i.e. they qualify as exports imho.

he Dolphin class is actually two related sub-classes of diesel-electric submarine developed and constructed by Howaldtswerke-Deutsche Werft AG (HDW), Germany for the Israeli Navy.[4][5] The first three members of the class were based on the export-only German 209-class submarines, but greatly modified and enlarged, and are thus not designated as members of the 209 family. The Dolphin 1 sub-class is slightly larger than the German NavyType 212 in length and displacement. The three newer air-independent propulsionequipped boats are similar to the Type 212 vessels currently used by the German navy in underwater endurance, although the AIP Dolphins are 12 metres longer and are nearly 500 tonnes heavier in submerged displacement, and have a larger crew than either the Type 212 or the Type 214.

In 2006 Israel signed a contract with ThyssenKrupp to purchase two additional submarines from its HDW subsidiary.[28] The two new boats are an upgraded version displacing 28% heavier than the older Dolphins, featuring an air-independent propulsion system, similar to the one used on German Type 212 submarines.[28] On July 6, 2006, the Government of Germany decided to finance an advance to start the construction, about €170 million, planned for delivery in 2012.[31] The two submarines cost, overall, around €1.3 billion, of up to one-third was subsidized by Germany.[25] In 2010, both Israel and Germany denied having talks regarding the potential purchase of a sixth submarine.[32] Yet in 2011, Israel ordered a sixth Dolphin-class submarine, for which it was reported to pay the unsubsidized cost of US$1 billion.[33] However, in July 2011, during a meeting between German Defense MinisterThomas de Maizière and Israeli Prime MinisterBinyamin Netanyahu and Defense ministerEhud Barak, an agreement was reached to subsidize €135 million of the US$500–700 million cost of the sixth submarine.[34][35]

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dolphin-class_submarine

The first three members of theDolphin class were based on the export-only German 209, but greatly modified and enlarged, and are thus not designated as members of the 209 family. The Dolphin in design is in fact similar to 214 e.g. in diveplanes but similar to 212A e.g. in rudder configuration

Dolphin

Type 214

Type 212A

Type 209-1400

.

 

[Penguin]

As for Poland here are the real latest news: “The Polish MoD has authorized the navy to change their specifications so that the U-212A could fit the new specifications,” they said. "For the cash-strapped Polish Ministry of Defence this offer [of leasing the submarines] is a “gift” which will avoid a costly tender and certainly an endless diplomatic row [with the Germans]."
From the same article you've mentionned.

What the article states is that Poland is looking to acquire three new submarines by 2030 to replace old 206s.
The Poles states the Type 212A didn't meet their requirements (notwithstanding that it is one of the most advanced SSKs in the world). Poland believes German-made submarines are not up to the job of defending Polish shores, but on the back of a landmark naval deal between the two countries, Poland is likely to lease two subs anyway. When you lease a sub you pay for its use. By leasing it, Poland saves on the tendering process, not on the subs themselves. I.e. this constitutes export, just like the IN's lease of a Russian attack submarine does. Or Pakistan's lease of Brooke and Garcia frigates from the US in the 1980s.


If Iran claims its Fateh is up to par with the best subs and subtechnology out there, it (not me) invites comparison to the best stuff that its out there, including Type 212A and SSNs

 

[The SC]

What the article states is that Poland is looking to acquire three new submarines by 2030 to replace old 206s.
The Poles states the Type 212A didn't meet their requirements (notwithstanding that it is one of the most advanced SSKs in the world). Poland believes German-made submarines are not up to the job of defending Polish shores, but on the back of a landmark naval deal between the two countries, Poland is likely to lease two subs anyway. When you lease a sub you pay for its use. By leasing it, Poland saves on the tendering process, not on the subs themselves. I.e. this constitutes export, just like the IN's lease of a Russian attack submarine does. Or Pakistan's lease of Brooke and Garcia frigates from the US in the 1980s.


If Iran claims its Fateh is up to par with the best subs and subtechnology out there, it (not me) invites comparison to the best stuff that its out there, including Type 212A and SSNs

You should read about why the 212-A was not exported, I give you a hint, germany does not want to diclose its hydrogene AIP technology and much more (The Type 214 is a diesel-electric submarine developed by Howaldtswerke-Deutsche Werft GmbH (HDW). It features diesel propulsion with an air-independent propulsion (AIP) system using Siemens polymer electrolyte membrane (PEM) hydrogen fuel cells. The Type 214 submarine is derived from the Type 212,[2] but as an export variant it lacks some of the classified technologies of its smaller predecessor most important of which is the non magnetic steel hull which makes the Type 212 submarine impossible to detect using a Magnetic Anomaly Detector.), that is why it has developped the 214 and 216 with different fuel cells technologies to respond to the market demands.Italy developped its 212-A alongside Germany it is a well known fact not to be mentionned everytime, the italian 212_A was adapted to the mediterannien waters.
For the Fateh submarine you should wait and see or hear, it is technologically in par with anything out there in its category, where you find none.Technology-wise, there is no reason not to believe the Iranians, one has only to check their scientific ranking in the world. if that is not enough , it is just talk for talk, since I repeated many times that iran is not disclosing its specs, it is like trying to compare with a ghost (that might be it), so it will be only speculation at best, which will give no tangible results or answers.