Fatal crash highlights the Chinese Air Force's flaws - 3 Dead

[DESERT FIGHTER]

Are you asking why would any airforce like to have new recruits who flew planes previously?

Its usually the other way around. Its retired airforce pilots joining commercial airlines.

Also how can someone even compare a civilian pilot with a fighter pilot? Lol

Thats like comparing a volvo driver with an F1 racer.

 

[adelphi]

Are you asking why would any airforce like to have new recruits who flew planes previously?

I would like to know the benefit of this approach since it's highlighted as a shortcoming for Chinese Pilots

 

[PakFactor]

I would like to know the benefit of this approach since it's highlighted as a shortcoming for Chinese Pilots

Not just China, even in the US Air Force they are having a hard time retaining Fighter Pilots because the private sector offers better pay and benefits. Within the last two years US Air Force increased pay and benefits for newly enlisted individuals, and started a program to bring back pilots who have left.

The benefits of getting pilots who already have flying experience is immense — and saves time and money cause the basics are already their they just have to develop the individual now into a killing machine — to say it in layman’s term.

 

[Foggy_Bottom]

Its usually the other way around. Its retired airforce pilots joining commercial airlines.

Also how can someone even compare a civilian pilot with a fighter pilot? Lol

Thats like comparing a volvo driver with an F1 racer.

Are you asking why would any airforce like to have new recruits who flew planes previously?

I would like to know the benefit of this approach since it's highlighted as a shortcoming for Chinese Pilots

Familiarity, a shorter learning curve are the benefits of having a previously experienced pilot. But our pilots are the best because of our training, equipment, support structure, and a higher flying IQ.

 

[adelphi]

The benefits of getting pilots who already have flying experience is immense — and saves time and money cause the basics are already their they just have to develop the individual now into a killing machine — to say it in layman’s term.

In my opinion it's hardly a benefit as most Airforce have a very rigid training programs to convert a raw individual into a killing machine. These days anyone can be an aviator but not all aviators can become fighter pilot. Again looking at it from thread prospective, it's hardly a flaw or reason for the crash.

 

[gambit]

"Experience in flying civilian aircraft before Joining the air force". Why would any airforce in the world do that???

I learned how to fly in high school and one of my favorite routes was over Pearl Harbor. By the time I joined the USAF, I already knew the basics of aerodynamics and flying in general.

The intention is to bypass as much of that foundational knowledge and flight skills as much as possible with the recruit at least already know how to fly if not outright a licensed pilot. The problem for China is that China do not have a truly civilian aviation sector. Most, if not all, of China's internal airspace is under military jurisdiction whereas in the US it is the opposite. In other words, in China, the default authority and ownership of Chinese airspace is the military while for the US, it is the civilians. The Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) is a civilian organization and is responsible for most of US internal airspace. In fact, the Pentagon have to petition the FAA for any partitioned airspace for military use. In China, it is the opposite.

My Cessna 152 -- and you can look it up -- was not intended to compete with the F-16. However, with the student already vetted by civilian training for medical reasons like airsickness prone and for basic eye-hand coordination skills makes for faster military aviation training. In my case, it was done while I was a teenager. That advantage few countries enjoys. As long as the Chinese internal airspace is under military control, the PLA will never have that advantage, or at least to the extent that the US can have with its own civilian aviators. In my case, I was certified for 'cross country' flight before I got my driver's license.

 

[gambit]

In my opinion it's hardly a benefit as most Airforce have a very rigid training programs to convert a raw individual into a killing machine. These days anyone can be an aviator but not all aviators can become fighter pilot. Again looking at it from thread prospective, it's hardly a flaw or reason for the crash.

Anyone? Hardly.

First, the country itself must be friendly towards aviation in general, let alone allowing 'regular' people to fly. In this, there are few countries that have the economic and societal opportunities for its citizens to learn how to fly at their leisure. So it is hardly 'anyone' can be an aviator.

Second, it is true that not all civilian flyers can become fighter pilots. But why not tanker or air refueler pilots? Of course, not every air force in the world have air refueling capability in the first place.

The point here is that having a readied source of pilots -- whether each can be or want to be a military pilot is not the point -- is a huge asset. It is not an intangible asset. It is a valuable national resource to the point that it is a national treasure.

Mathias Rust...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mathias_Rust

At 18 yrs old, he planned a flight from CONEUR to Iceland to Russia, landing in Moscow's Red Square. At the time of that feat, he had only 50 hours of stick time. Never mind his politics or maturity or the fact that the Soviets tracked him on/off in his flight. How many civilian pilots in the world, let alone China, can do what he did? Surprisingly enough -- plenty. I could have done it.

If you are prone to motion sickness, civilian flight training would have detected it. What you do next is up to you.

If you cannot make coordinated turns, civilian flight training would have detected it. Coordinated turns are basic flight maneuvers that involved brain and eye-hand coordination. So if you cannot perform this very basic maneuver, you will crash and possibly die.

If you cannot grasp basic navigation techniques, civilian flight training would have detected it. Dead reckoning skills are how the early aviators flew into the unknown. You do not have the mental acumen? You cannot fly cross country which mean you will not be licensed in the first place, let alone join the air force to become a killer.

The skillset just from civilian flight training alone will be an advantage for the candidate as he/she entered the military life.

The 'flaw' here is not so much a technical deficiency but more like an institutional weakness.

 

[maximuswarrior]

Its usually the other way around. Its retired airforce pilots joining commercial airlines.

Also how can someone even compare a civilian pilot with a fighter pilot? Lol

Thats like comparing a volvo driver with an F1 racer.

This American troll logged into this forum only with one purpose. It is to troll against Pakistan and China.

I am amazed at how the mods are allowing these scumbags such freedom to spew venom on PDF.

this topic has existed in the chinese defence forum...

The foolish American wants to feel tough. Let him have his minute of fame.

 

[adelphi]

I learned how to fly in high school and one of my favorite routes was over Pearl Harbor. By the time I joined the USAF, I already knew the basics of aerodynamics and flying in general.

The intention is to bypass as much of that foundational knowledge and flight skills as much as possible with the recruit at least already know how to fly if not outright a licensed pilot. The problem for China is that China do not have a truly civilian aviation sector. Most, if not all, of China's internal airspace is under military jurisdiction whereas in the US it is the opposite. In other words, in China, the default authority and ownership of Chinese airspace is the military while for the US, it is the civilians. The Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) is a civilian organization and is responsible for most of US internal airspace. In fact, the Pentagon have to petition the FAA for any partitioned airspace for military use. In China, it is the opposite.

My Cessna 152 -- and you can look it up -- was not intended to compete with the F-16. However, with the student already vetted by civilian training for medical reasons like airsickness prone and for basic eye-hand coordination skills makes for faster military aviation training. In my case, it was done while I was a teenager. That advantage few countries enjoys. As long as the Chinese internal airspace is under military control, the PLA will never have that advantage, or at least to the extent that the US can have with its own civilian aviators. In my case, I was certified for 'cross country' flight before I got my driver's license.

Appreciate your response, I understand your point and it does makes sense. However for the sake of healthy discussion, lets just say this would have made big difference in 70s or 80s. But these days all the information is readily available to a keen enthusiast. There are heaps of simulators that can provide cockpit familiarity or dynamics of flying an aircraft. In a flying School one can start going solo after 10 to 15 hrs of flying time. So the point is how much would it matter given the advances that have made flying easier. An 18 year old with flying aptitude should pick it up fairly quickly.
A flying experience before enlistment is good but not mandatory, therefore I find it hard to justify this as a reason for crash. Most airforce training programs don't rely on previous flying experience (atleast not in PAF). If one is not good enough he's grounded regardless of his previous flying experience. I don't think bypassing fundamentals to save some time is good practise when one is supposed to fly a multi-million dollar jet.
I remember a few months back a guy on his very first flight managed to land the aircraft safely when his instructor suddenly passed out while flying here in Australia. On top 90 year old grannies are doing tandem jumps these days.

 

[adelphi]

Anyone? Hardly.

First, the country itself must be friendly towards aviation in general, let alone allowing 'regular' people to fly. In this, there are few countries that have the economic and societal opportunities for its citizens to learn how to fly at their leisure. So it is hardly 'anyone' can be an aviator.

Second, it is true that not all civilian flyers can become fighter pilots. But why not tanker or air refueler pilots? Of course, not every air force in the world have air refueling capability in the first place.

The point here is that having a readied source of pilots -- whether each can be or want to be a military pilot is not the point -- is a huge asset. It is not an intangible asset. It is a valuable national resource to the point that it is a national treasure.

Mathias Rust...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mathias_Rust

At 18 yrs old, he planned a flight from CONEUR to Iceland to Russia, landing in Moscow's Red Square. At the time of that feat, he had only 50 hours of stick time. Never mind his politics or maturity or the fact that the Soviets tracked him on/off in his flight. How many civilian pilots in the world, let alone China, can do what he did? Surprisingly enough -- plenty. I could have done it.

If you are prone to motion sickness, civilian flight training would have detected it. What you do next is up to you.

If you cannot make coordinated turns, civilian flight training would have detected it. Coordinated turns are basic flight maneuvers that involved brain and eye-hand coordination. So if you cannot perform this very basic maneuver, you will crash and possibly die.

If you cannot grasp basic navigation techniques, civilian flight training would have detected it. Dead reckoning skills are how the early aviators flew into the unknown. You do not have the mental acumen? You cannot fly cross country which mean you will not be licensed in the first place, let alone join the air force to become a killer.

The skillset just from civilian flight training alone will be an advantage for the candidate as he/she entered the military life.

The 'flaw' here is not so much a technical deficiency but more like an institutional weakness.

I think we are saying the same thing but in different ways. With "anyone can be an aviator" I meant anyone who has access to flying. I'm in agreement with all the things you have mentioned but the point I wanted to make was that "Not having flying experience before enlistment" shouldn't be the reason for crash and you have rightly summed it up as being an institutional weakness.

 

[Nasr]

Fatal crash highlights Chinese air force’s flaws, with drill and equipment problems implicated in deaths of three, including pilot who flew in National Day military parade

Engine flaws and a lack of training have been identified as the likely causes of two accidents that hit the Chinese air force in the space of little over a week – one of which claimed the lives of three airmen.

Deaths from the crashes, which happened within a span of 10 days, included a helicopter pilot who took part in the National Day grand parade at the start of the month.

President Xi Jinping’s call to strengthen the “combat readiness” of the military – more accidents would happen as increased drills exposed technical problems and inadequate training.

“[If these problems are not resolved], it is foreseeable that more accidents will happen because the top brass is pushing for more drills and exercises across the military,” said one source close to the air force.


The fatal accident happened about three weeks ago in central Henan province, when a transport helicopter crashed, killing all three people on board.

Gong Dachuan, 33, was one of the airmen killed in the crash. Photo: Handout

Local television reports named pilot Gong Dachuan, 33, and 37-year-old engineer Wen Weibin, as two of this killed in the crash. The third victim was later named as Luo Wei, from Luzhou in Sichuan, by an online mourning website.


A memorial for Gong was held by the local government in Xinye County last Tuesday.

“The three people were conducting some tests on the helicopter,” said a local source who declined to disclose where the crash happened and the nature of the test.

Xinye county government in Henan province held a memorial to honour the dead pilot. Photo: Handout
Media reports said that Gong had flown in this year’s National Day parade in Beijing, while Wen had been decorated for his participation in the 2015 parade in Beijing to mark the 70th anniversary of victory over Japan in World War II.

The three dead airmen have been designated as martyrs, the reports added.

The second accident happened eight days later on the Tibetan Plateau where a J-10 fighter jet on a low-altitude flying drill crashed into the mountain.

“Fortunately, the pilot ejected safely in time, but the J-10 crashed into the mountain,” said an informed source, who requested anonymity since no official announcement about the accident has been made.

“Preliminary investigations indicated that the accident had something to with the Russian-made AL-31 engine on board the J-10,” the source said.

Military analysts said the air force needs to improve the durability of its aircraft and training for pilots.

Hong Kong-based military expert Song Zhongping suggested that problems with engines and flight control systems were also key reasons behind some of the fatal crashes.

Wen Weibin, 37, also died in the crash. Photo: Handout
Two J-15 fighter jets crashed in April 2016, resulting in one death and one serious injury. Investigations into the two crashes pointed to problems with the flight control system.

A source from the Chinese air force said that, unlike their American counterparts, PLA pilots generally lack training in avionics engineering and had little flying experience before enlistment.

“PLA pilots may be strong and courageous, and they are motivated to make sacrifices,” the air force source said. “But they don’t have as much experience as American pilots – many of [whom] have a lot of experience in flying civilian aircraft before they join the air force.”

Additional reporting by William Zheng

China needs to increase training proficiency and increase the flight hours for training. You have the best equipment there is, now all you need is to train your pilots with that killer instinct. Logistics, maintenance is of supreme importance, and mastering this will make Chinese Air Force dominate it's opponents. Being an exceptionally large Air Force, China must streamline and standardize it's SOP. The more efficient it's ability to maintain a high standard in Aircraft Maintenance. It would allow China's Air Force to fight harder and beat it's adversaries.

 

[gambit]

Appreciate your response, I understand your point and it does makes sense. However for the sake of healthy discussion, lets just say this would have made big difference in 70s or 80s. But these days all the information is readily available to a keen enthusiast. There are heaps of simulators that can provide cockpit familiarity or dynamics of flying an aircraft. In a flying School one can start going solo after 10 to 15 hrs of flying time. So the point is how much would it matter given the advances that have made flying easier. An 18 year old with flying aptitude should pick it up fairly quickly.
A flying experience before enlistment is good but not mandatory, therefore I find it hard to justify this as a reason for crash. Most airforce training programs don't rely on previous flying experience (atleast not in PAF). If one is not good enough he's grounded regardless of his previous flying experience. I don't think bypassing fundamentals to save some time is good practise when one is supposed to fly a multi-million dollar jet.
I remember a few months back a guy on his very first flight managed to land the aircraft safely when his instructor suddenly passed out while flying here in Australia. On top 90 year old grannies are doing tandem jumps these days.

You are missing the larger point...

First, simulators have limits and those limits are physical. A simulator cannot give you the true and full experience of flight, notably that of acceleration in all axes and the effects on the body. I have seen enough simulator 'pilots' blew chunks in the air and realized that being a pilot is not in their career choices in aviation. For me, I do not get airsick but I do get seasick. Something in that constant slow motion movement that affects me more than the near instant acceleration in flight. It meant I was not cut out to be in the navy.

Second, the point of the article was not about the prior lack of aviation experience. That lack is only one contributing factor. Aviation is a national treasure. Countries that have aviation in their DNAs advances. Simple as that. By that I do not mean simply buying aircrafts from other countries. I mean having aviation as a national asset from design to manufacture to people being comfortable with everything about aviation. In this point, China is not in the same class as the US or the Euros. Emirates may have the most comfortable first class in their jets but the UAE is not known as an aviation power.

The article is about the national psyche regarding aviation. When you take all the factors into an algorithm, the US and the Euros comes out ahead of China, and that is evident even to the PLA's leadership. This national experience is intangible but readily manifest itself in individuals when they join their air forces. When a classroom instructor meet a student that have a civilian license, that does not mean the student gets any slack in the classroom or in the air. If anything, more burdens are likely to be put on that student in the classroom and in the air because he/she is expected to learn new things faster and execute them with less errors. When an IP meets a student with civilian flight experience, the IP now has to worry about bad habits that the student may have from that prior experience, but at the same time, the IP fully expects those bad habits to be quickly exorcised and from that foundation, a better than average pilot will graduate. These and other intangibles from the human factor that contributes to a capable air force cannot be simulated.

You are making the same mistake as other -- you focused on just one thing that you disagreed with.

 

[Ultima Thule]

Are you asking why would any airforce like to have new recruits who flew planes previously?



Familiarity, a shorter learning curve are the benefits of having a previously experienced pilot. But our pilots are the best because of our training, equipment, support structure, and a higher flying IQ.

Show your Real (Indian) flag, its shame to hide your real identity

transparency

What transparency, you want, Does have does USAF or US army have so called your TRANSPARENCY, they have different Governing systems Then USA, they want to hide as much as they can, similar to cold war era Soviet Union, that at cold war you can only speculates on Soviet Union technologies with few exception

 

[Foggy_Bottom]

Show your Real (Indian) flag, its shame to hide your real identity

What transparency, you want, Does have does USAF or US army have so called your TRANSPARENCY, they have different Governing systems Then USA, they want to hide as much as they can, similar to cold war era Soviet Union, that at cold war you can only speculates on Soviet Union technologies with few exception

Did you take the time to read what you posted?

 

[Ultima Thule]

Did you take the time to read what you posted?

LOL nice one troll, now show me your real (Indian) flag boy