Facts on Siachen

[Indian009]

If you look at it though, no one in India (in an official capacity) has actually said anything about removing Indian troops from Siachin only Pakistanis have said as such because their catastrophe. Indian side has done well to keep shut over this contentious issue.

Hey there was news in TOI that GOI welcomes Pak suggestion. 2 days ago may be

 

[Abingdonboy]

Hey there was news in TOI that GOI welcomes Pak suggestion. 2 days ago may be

You'd expect GoI to say- "no, we want conflict and deaths to continue?!"

 

[Solomon2]

But that's the problem, what's to stop them re-occupying once India reciprocates in kind?

Difficult terrain and the fact that the Pakistani military is politically weak in the wake of the avalanche tragedy. I can see the generals wanting to move forward but the PM and Mr. 10% ordering them back. As long as India doesn't fall for the provocation, the civilian leadership will be obeyed, Pakistan's democracy strengthened, and maybe even peaceful relations between the two countries take root.

So the question becomes, do India's leaders really want that to happen?

 

[Indian009]

You'd expect GoI to say- "no, we want conflict and deaths to continue?!"

No definately not NO on face but something more strategic like we will consider this offer from our good neighbour if they agree on paper our claim and assurance from Pak milletry to respect and not break the deal
It is more easy than to say no

 

[Tshering22]

If the UPA attempts a drawdown, it will finish them off their political careers in Indian politics. We should NOT and I repeat we should not draw down. If that heavens forbid happens, the Army should reject the UPA government's order under the National Security Act(?) (don't remember the exact name of that act, but under full operations, IA has complete power to refuse a conflicting order from the civilian government).

Pakistan is suffering economically and that's their problem. We should not draw our troops out. If they want, they're free to do their will.

Kargil was a glaring example of fake promises of PA's generals.

 

[Solomon2]

If the UPA attempts a drawdown, it will finish them off their political careers in Indian politics.

President Kennedy's most famous book, Profiles in Courage, describes elected politicians who did the right thing regardless of the damage to their careers and why they did so. Why not give it a read? It's available in both English and Hindi at numerous Indian libraries.

 

[Rajputana]

Difficult terrain and the fact that the Pakistani military is politically weak in the wake of the avalanche tragedy. I can see the generals wanting to move forward but the PM and Mr. 10% ordering them back. As long as India doesn't fall for the provocation, the civilian leadership will be obeyed, Pakistan's democracy strengthened, and maybe even peaceful relations between the two countries take root.

So the question becomes, do India's leaders really want that to happen?

Sure, persuade the Pakistanis sign off on a document recognizing the AGPL, that is GOI position as well.

Mere words are hollow given Pakistani military history of sanctioned and unsanctioned aggression.

President Kennedy's most famous book, Profiles in Courage, describes elected politicians who did the right thing regardless of the damage to their careers and why they did so. Why not give it a read? It's available in both English and Hindi at numerous Indian libraries.

Again, let them sign off on a document, there should be no reason not to considering that is what the ground realities are.

 

[Abhishek_]

Difficult terrain and the fact that the Pakistani military is politically weak in the wake of the avalanche tragedy. I can see the generals wanting to move forward but the PM and Mr. 10% ordering them back. As long as India doesn't fall for the provocation, the civilian leadership will be obeyed, Pakistan's democracy strengthened, and maybe even peaceful relations between the two countries take root.

So the question becomes, do India's leaders really want that to happen?

on the contrary, the question stands if PA is willing to recognise the current ground positions in order to give legal protection to both parties.

 

[Solomon2]

Sure, persuade the Pakistanis sign off -

That approach has been tried for decades and hasn't worked. So why not try deeds first and documents later?

Mere words are hollow given Pakistani military history of sanctioned and unsanctioned aggression.

Goa? "Peaceful" nuclear explosions? The Atlantique incident? Are you blind that you don't see such acts by India as unsanctioned aggression?

Both Pakistan and India have dirty hands but India may have a chance to pull both countries out of the morass this time. Why not give it a shot?

 

[ashokdeiva]

That approach has been tried for decades and hasn't worked. So why not try deeds first and documents later?

Goa? "Peaceful" nuclear explosions? The Atlantique incident? Are you blind that you don't see such acts by India as unsanctioned aggression?

Both Pakistan and India have dirty hands but India may have a chance to pull both countries out of the morass this time. Why not give it a shot?

we already gave it a shot when we stiked to the plan of vacating our posts in winter and got more of our soldiers dead for that mistake of trusting the Pakistanis.
why don't you persuade the Pakistanis to do it in paper first rather than lecturing us on "leap of faith".
we no longer work that way, we have learned our leasons and any thing to happen we need agrements signed and registered in the UN.

 

[Abingdonboy]

If the UPA attempts a drawdown, it will finish them off their political careers in Indian politics. We should NOT and I repeat we should not draw down. If that heavens forbid happens, the Army should reject the UPA government's order under the National Security Act(?) (don't remember the exact name of that act, but under full operations, IA has complete power to refuse a conflicting order from the civilian government).

Pakistan is suffering economically and that's their problem. We should not draw our troops out. If they want, they're free to do their will.

Kargil was a glaring example of fake promises of PA's generals.

Mate where are you getting this from?!! The GoI has said nothing of the sort nor gestured they are even considering this. The rest of the stuff is just like the ignorant Indian media saying Army will commit coup because of regular training exercise.

 

[Abhishek_]

That approach has been tried for decades and hasn't worked. So why not try deeds first and documents later?

we tried that, and got kargil as a gift. thanks but no thanks.

Goa? "Peaceful" nuclear explosions? The Atlantique incident? Are you blind that you don't see such acts by India as unsanctioned aggression?

you might want to read the wiki link you posted. I do not see any unsanctioned aggression.

 

[harpoon]

I heard IA already told political leadership that if Siachen is vacated and forces pulled back and PA takes advantage of the situation, its close to impossible to take it back.

 

[Rajputana]

That approach has been tried for decades and hasn't worked. So why not try deeds first and documents later?

It has been tried earlier, where India was unilaterally doing partial climbdowns resulted in Kargil, with the civilian governments undergoing the biggest peace initiative in history.

Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, shame on me....right?

Goa? "Peaceful" nuclear explosions? The Atlantique incident? Are you blind that you don't see such acts by India as unsanctioned aggression?

Both Pakistan and India have dirty hands but India may have a chance to pull both countries out of the morass this time. Why not give it a shot?

Unsanctioned by Civilian governments, I think I will be more explicit with you next time.

Indian acts were sanctioned by civilian governments, other than that I would not discuss these acts unless on individual merits.

 

[Solomon2]

Are you aware that just before 26/11 India and Pakistan were close to an agreement on Siachin, and then what happend??!

Yes.

we already gave it a shot when we stiked to the plan of vacating our posts in winter and got more of our soldiers dead for that mistake of trusting the Pakistanis.

Bad timing, the Pakmil was still ascendant.

It has been tried earlier, where India was unilaterally doing partial climbdowns resulted in Kargil...Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, shame on me....right?

I heard IA already told political leadership that if Siachen is vacated and forces pulled back and PA takes advantage of the situation, its close to impossible to take it back.

No need to unduly encourage the jackals. Begin not by abandoning positions but with small, highly-publicized reductions-in-force. By Pakistan's response you'll know who and what you're dealing with this time.