Facing China threat, Vietnam seeks American balance

[Snomannen]

First of all, Vietnam is a country that had been taken for a thousand year but could still stand up to repel the invaders. Have you ever seen such feat in the world's history? Many Chinese invasions had been squashed by such a small country. You can blame it on Big China's inadequacies or praise Vietnam's resilience. Your choice

Yes. China has been using Vietnam's internal problem as an opportunity to conquer this nation throughout history. The only time they succeed was in 1407 when Ming Dynasty used the struggle between two Vietnamese royalties to take over the country for 20 years. The Ming was eventually kicked out in 1427. 250,000 Ming soldiers (occupying force and mainland's reinforcement) were defeated and 150,000 of that number were killed.

The last major battle were against Qing's Qianlong Emperor troops. The Qing used divided Vietnam again as an opportunity to strike. Vietnam Emperor Quang Trung sweep 200,000 Chinese, and 60,000 treasonous Vietnamese out of the country in 5 days. How's humiliating! That battle humbled the great Qianlong.

In modern history, the time that PRC invaded the Paracel islands was in 1974 when Vietnam was still divided by North and South. Thus, Vietnamese have learnt that opportunistic Chinese can only win when we have serious internal problems.

How is it a "news" about big country failed to conquer small countries.
The Great Yuan lost their war with Japan and other tiny little countries.
Österreich failed to conquered Switzerland.
Ottoman Turkey lost a lot of war with small countries.
Soviet Union was failed to conquer Afghanistan and lost a lot of man from the war with Finland.
The USA didn't make much success in Vietnam and North Korea.
Blaming around hmm? I'm not into that play like you do.

Firstly you can never ignore the fact that Vietnam had been controlling for 1000 years.
[a country that had been taken for a thousand year but could still stand up to repel the invaders] doesn't mean that the "sad story" doesn't existed.
Secondly, how did you ever come up with the number 250,000 and 150,000. Not to mention Vietnam also lost a lot of men.
Also don't blame around (read my updated post pls).

Interesting. According to the [Draft History of Qing], there are only 15,000 solders (not to mention many of them are workers only) and 20,000 from NhaHauLe. While in the [The true record of the Great South] mentioned that there were 290,000 of them. Hmm, interesting.

Claiming Genghis Khan as Chinese again? We have discussed the issue before. This "knowledge" can only be in PRC's history book, since everyone in the world knows the difference.

That remind me you haven't replied my post yet.
If Genghis Khan was not Chinese, then Bâbur was not Indian and Alexandra the Great wasn't Greek. Simple as that.

 

[Snomannen]

Thanks for showing that. Great skill of talking about defeat All I hear are:

1st invasion: 55,000 troops
1) Can't win, let's talk about the hot weather.
2) Can't win. Objective is to get defeat notification. So nice, we Mongolians are the only ones to claim victory in defeat
3) Can't win. Objective is to attract Song by losing 55,000 for nothing.

2nd invasion: 300.000 troops
1) Can't win, hot weather again. How can a human live in hot weather??
2) Can't win, Han Chinese solider sucks

3rd invasion: another 300,000 troops
1) Can't win, this country must be at the core of hell. Damn, we're out of hot excuses
2) Can't win, Han Chinese solider sucks again. We should have recruited Vietnamese instead

I agree with you that it is a series of great victories

Yes yes, exactly what I have in my mind after reading these excuses - Blaming around.
Just like blaming about "serious internal problems".
No difference.

By the way the 3rd (2) should be:
Can't win, too many conflicts in our own country. People are fighting against the Yuan government.

 

[soaringeagle]

Don't bother, if they can push millions of their own people into the sea (turning 400,000 of them into shark baits) and start offering "boom boom yum yums" openly on the streets to American tourist just a few years after they took the South, you think they will give a **** to small things like these?

Vietnam is a backstabber. China once support Vietnam, but Vietnam, like a spoiled, rebellious brat, sees China as an enemy.

Anyway, a country cowering to America are a bunch of cowards who can't even stand up for themselves.

 

[gambit]

Good move by Viet Nam. If unchecked, China will be an Imperial Japan repeat. An Imperial China will create a race based war in Asia, just like how Imperial Japan did that helped created WW II.

 

[VietHome]

Yes yes, exactly what I have in my mind after reading these excuses - Blaming around.
Just like blaming about "serious internal problems".
No difference.

"hot weather" is a ridiculous excuse since both sides endure the same weather.

However, Vietnamese posters saying "serious internal problems," is not meant to be an excuse, but rather, a statement of fact as I have pointed to you in my previous post. After Vietnam had gained independent, China always attacked the country when our house was divided. They were only successful a couple times but were defeat in the rest.

If you say "serious internal problems," is an excuse, then, even with that excuse, Vietnam squashed invaders so many times. What does it say about the invader's competence?

By the way the 3rd (2) should be:
Can't win, too many conflicts in our own country. People are fighting against the Yuan government.

Then, invasion should not have happened. Aggressors can make a decision on whether to fight or not, while defenders can only fight or lose. Any aggressor's loss by miscalculating their internal problem is a true strategic loss. Thus, this is another lame excuse.

 

[Snomannen]

"hot weather" is a ridiculous excuse since both sides endure the same weather.

However, Vietnamese posters saying "serious internal problems," is not meant to be an excuse, but rather, a statement of fact as I have pointed to you in my previous post. After Vietnam had gained independent, China always attacked the country when our house was divided. They were only successful a couple times but were defeat in the rest.

If you say "serious internal problems," is an excuse, then, even with that excuse, Vietnam squashed invaders so many times. What does it say about the invader's competence?


Then, invasion should not have happened. Aggressors can make a decision on whether to fight or not, while defenders can only fight or lose. Any aggressor's loss by miscalculating their internal problem is a true strategic loss. Thus, this is another lame excuse.

Weather is actually a pretty nice excuse.
Since both sides have to endure the same weather, yet doesn't mean that both sides can adapt with the same weather. And it is also a fact that the weather is not 'suitable' for them. Just like what happened to the short guy and Hitler.


Because Vietnam is a little chili.

Yeah that was a lama excuse, but an excuse is still an excuse.

 

[cnleio]

Good move by Viet Nam. If unchecked, China will be an Imperial Japan repeat. An Imperial China will create a race based war in Asia, just like how Imperial Japan did that helped created WW II.

LOL, that's very funny comment i saw today.
So pls U.S lend more money and export ur freedom to Vietnam, let's see how the Vietnamese will change and how U.S could get from this communist Vietnam government.

I remind u before compare China to imperial Japan, maybe u forget how many foreign wars U.S had joint in for last thirty years. A war lord call other as the murder, IRONIC!

 

[cnleio]

Chinese work hard to collect money and go to USA, and you continue washing plates in UK.

The Chinese more love their country than ur Vietnamese, most of them select working hard in China and earning to get rich here.

That's main reason why China more success than ur poor Vietnam, our ppl more wealth than ur poor ppl, our live conditions much better than ur cities, our high-technology more advance than ur poor skills, our military force much stronger than ur weak army, our "made in China" more famous than "made in Vietnam", everyone living in China can realize their China's dreams owing house and cars, we'r N.o 2 in this world much poweful than ur poor country, the China is a powerful & big country do not beg for the foreign.

U r just a blind dreamer, only live in Vietnam know nothing about China and the Chinese. And i tell u each year there'r thousands of Vietnamese young girls leaving ur poor Vietnam and black in China to earn money, each year our policemen send many black Vietnamese girls back to Vietnam do u believe it ?

 

[VietHome]

How is it a "news" about big country failed to conquer small countries.
The Great Yuan lost their war with Japan and other tiny little countries.
Österreich failed to conquered Switzerland.
Ottoman Turkey lost a lot of war with small countries.
Soviet Union was failed to conquer Afghanistan and lost a lot of man from the war with Finland.
The USA didn't make much success in Vietnam and North Korea.
Blaming around hmm? I'm not into that play like you do.

Because:

The matter concerns Vietnam and China relationship. I believe we are discussing Vietnam's on-going struggle to protect and gain back its island here. So the turbulent history between the two countries, and the victories Vietnam gained from China are relevant here. Every country holds on to its heroic moment. If you want to dismissed Vietnam's victories as "not news," then go to each country you quoted and tell their people the same thing. By the way, if you truly an "independent" observer, you should not be ticked off by Vietnamese talking about their victories, and jump in to defend China. Since we both know you are not "independent" as you have told me before (you Inner Mongolia heritage and all), spare me the hypocrisy.

Firstly you can never ignore the fact that Vietnam had been controlling for 1000 years.
[a country that had been taken for a thousand year but could still stand up to repel the invaders] doesn't mean that the "sad story" doesn't existed.

But it also does not mean the feat of repelling a thousand year of servitude does not exist either. You claim that the length of time somehow shows China's "strength," then I can also use to length of time to show Vietnamese's resilience. In the end, victory is all that matters, and Vietnam defeat China to gain its independence.

Secondly, how did you ever come up with the number 250,000 and 150,000. Not to mention Vietnam also lost a lot of men.
Also don't blame around (read my updated post pls).

That's the total of 100,000 occupying force + 150,000 reinforcement. My source is Vietnamese history book called Đại Việt sử ký toàn thư (Complete Annals of Đại Việt) by Ngô Sĩ Liên in 1479. Wikidia used a bit of it here Le Loi - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia. Unfortunately, I don't have English translation so you have to follow that wiki page and add up the number.

Btw, since when losing more/less is the basis of defeat/victory? The Soviet Union lost how many against Germany? Did Germany win the war? If China were capable, they would not have been kicked out in the first place.

Interesting. According to the [Draft History of Qing], there are only 15,000 solders (not to mention many of them are workers only) and 20,000 from NhaHauLe. While in the [The true record of the Great South] mentioned that there were 290,000 of them. Hmm, interesting.

And that 15,000 number is of course dubious due to logic alone. That many solider cannot control Vietnam which had had the population of tens of millions at the time. Further more, history many centuries before had recorded invasion force to be in several hundred thousands.

That remind me you haven't replied my post yet.
If Genghis Khan was not Chinese, then Bâbur was not Indian and Alexandra the Great wasn't Greek. Simple as that.

Because you post was a long one that centered around circular logic, while your entire point can boils down to the quoted above sentence, which I have refuted already. Let's me repeat:

Genghis Khan is not Chinese because there is a Mongolian country in the world right now.

Muhammad Babur is not Indian because there is a Mongolian country in the world right now.

Alexandra the Great is not Greek because there is a Macedonia country in the world right now.

Each of those country can claim these rulers as theirs. But in the eyes of objective history, each ruler belongs to his originated lands, unless these nations had been erased from the map. PRC can claim Genghis Khan as their hero by taking over Mongolia

Btw, it's so sneaky to claim Genghis Khan, while according to your logic, India can also claim Genghis Khan as Indian, Babur is a descendant of Genghis after all. You should have been happy with Genghis's lessor grandson, Kublai Khan, who created the Yuan Dynasty and became "the first non-Chinese Emperor to conquer all of China." Kublai Khan - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[VietHome]

The Chinese more love their country than ur Vietnamese, most of them select working hard in China and earning to get rich here.

That's main reason why China more success than ur poor Vietnam, our ppl more wealth than ur poor ppl, our live conditions much better than ur cities, our high-technology more advance than ur poor skills, our military force much stronger than ur weak army, our "made in China" more famous than "made in Vietnam", everyone living in China can realize their China's dreams owing house and cars, we'r N.o 2 in this world much poweful than ur poor country, the China is a powerful & big country do not beg for the foreign.

U r just a blind dreamer, only live in Vietnam know nothing about China and the Chinese. And i tell u each year there'r thousands of Vietnamese young girls leaving ur poor Vietnam and black in China to earn money, each year our policemen send many black Vietnamese girls back to Vietnam do u believe it ?

PRC is a lot stronger than Vietnam because of many reasons, the biggest one is its immense population, also:

- PRC has been at peace for many decades while Vietnam was fighting multiple wars
- PRC used Vietnam to normalize relationship with America, and Western Europe (backstabbing the Soviet Union in the process) a good two-three decades before Vietnam did
- PRC has forced many people into harsh working condition with minimal protection since it is an extreme Totalitarian regime. Have you ever heard of Foxconn?
- PRC pushes too much on industrial development leaving the air, water, land on China heavily polluted
- Chinese vendors hack, counterfeit, sell sub-par products to earn a buck, in other words, they are dishonest.

Of course, we cannot dismiss Chinese hard-working, resolute, and intelligent business trade as they are the best in the world. However, one of the biggest set-back in Chinese mentality is the thoughts of hiding short-comings while over-exaggerate successes. The idea of "saving face" is so ingrained in the culture that sometimes outsiders have to point it out.

 

[cnleio]

PRC is a lot stronger than Vietnam because of many reasons, the biggest one is its immense population, also:

- PRC has been at peace for many decades while Vietnam was fighting multiple wars
- PRC used Vietnam to normalize relationship with America, and Western Europe (backstabbing the Soviet Union in the process) a good two-three decades before Vietnam did
- PRC has forced many people into harsh working condition with minimal protection since it is an extreme Totalitarian regime. Have you ever heard of Foxconn?
- PRC pushes too much on industrial development leaving the air, water, land on China heavily polluted
- Chinese vendors hack, counterfeit, sell sub-par products to earn a buck, in other words, they are dishonest.

Of course, we cannot dismiss Chinese hard-working, resolute, and intelligent business trade as they are the best in the world. However, one of the biggest set-back in Chinese mentality is the thoughts of hiding short-comings while over-exaggerate successes. The idea of "saving face" is so ingrained in the culture that sometimes outsiders have to point it out.

I suggest u should compare Vietnam with GuangXi province and YunNan province of PRC, 2012 Vietnam GDP just reach our 2x WestSouth not rich province situations, equal with GuangXi province but lower than YunNan province. Yes Vietnam is much weaker than China coz ur whole country economy only as similar as our a not rich province.

U can count out thousands of explain why Vietnam weaker than China, but the truth Vietnam is a poor and weak country, more Vietnamese special young girls from the North Vietnam like to black in China, the China could bring more chance and more money earning for ur Vietnamese ppl living in China.（If u need i can show u many pics about Vietnamese and girls black in China and arrested by China policemen will send back to Vietnam）


U can continue make up lies, but can't stop each year ur poor young Vietnamese from North Vietnam flood into China.

 

[Snomannen]

Because:

The matter concerns Vietnam and China relationship. I believe we are discussing Vietnam's on-going struggle to protect and gain back its island here. So the turbulent history between the two countries, and the victories Vietnam gained from China are relevant here. Every country holds on to its heroic moment. If you want to dismissed Vietnam's victories as "not news," then go to each country you quoted and tell their people the same thing. By the way, if you truly an "independent" observer, you should not be ticked off by Vietnamese talking about their victories, and jump in to defend China. Since we both know you are not "independent" as you have told me before (you Inner Mongolia heritage and all), spare me the hypocrisy.

Firstly I wasn't even thinking about the islands issue.
Secondly, I said big countries fail from conquering small nations is a "normal" story based on other samples doesn't mean that I am defending anyone.
So stop punching a scarecrow in front of us.
Thirdly, you are just considering anything that you don't want to believe, don't suit your own taste or don't want to hear as a "defending". Since you think you are the one who is the holy God.

But it also does not mean the feat of repelling a thousand year of servitude does not exist either. You claim that the length of time somehow shows China's "strength," then I can also use to length of time to show Vietnamese's resilience. In the end, victory is all that matters, and Vietnam defeat China to gain its independence.

Yeah sure of course and yet you still think that a country gave you a thousand year of "servitude" wasn't a "wealthy opponent" (yeah yeah that was long time ago).

That's the total of 100,000 occupying force + 150,000 reinforcement. My source is Vietnamese history book called Đại Việt sử ký toàn thư (Complete Annals of Đại Việt) by Ngô Sĩ Liên in 1479. Wikidia used a bit of it here Le Loi - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia. Unfortunately, I don't have English translation so you have to follow that wiki page and add up the number.

Let me take a look.

Btw, since when losing more/less is the basis of defeat/victory? The Soviet Union lost how many against Germany? Did Germany win the war? If China were capable, they would not have been kicked out in the first place.

I suppose you know that that was simply a sample. Just like I was using Finland comparing with Vietnam.

And that 15,000 number is of course dubious due to logic alone. That many solider cannot control Vietnam which had had the population of tens of millions at the time. Further more, history many centuries before had recorded invasion force to be in several hundred thousands.

Oops sorry, I mistyped a "0" and misread the book. There was 150,000 of casualties out of 200,000 solders + workers/ suppliers, you were right.

Because you post was a long one that centered around circular logic, while your entire point can boils down to the quoted above sentence, which I have refuted already. Let's me repeat:

Sigh, you refuted nothing since you never try to read and remove your wrong concept.

Genghis Khan is not Chinese because there is a Mongolian country in the world right now.

Muhammad Babur is not Indian because there is a Mongolian country in the world right now.

Alexandra the Great is not Greek because there is a Macedonia country in the world right now.

Each of those country can claim these rulers as theirs. But in the eyes of objective history, each ruler belongs to his originated lands, unless these nations had been erased from the map. PRC can claim Genghis Khan as their hero by taking over Mongolia

Let's see how your logic works:
Taksin is not Thai because there is a Chinese country in the world right now.
Catherine the Great is not Russian because there is a German country in the world right now.
If Pakistan called themselves "Mughal", "Mughal" can takes over the history of Mughal Empire.
If Kaliningrad became a country and named themselves "Prussia", "Prussia" would have the right to take over Prussia's hisory. Since there is a "Prussian country" in the world right now.
In the eyes of objective history you say, I don't think that you have such a thing.
And yes the originated lands you say. Mongolian's origin Hulunbeier is China's land. Seems like China doesn't need the whole Mongolia to have Genghis Khan.

Btw, it's so sneaky to claim Genghis Khan, while according to your logic, India can also claim Genghis Khan as Indian, Babur is a descendant of Genghis after all. You should have been happy with Genghis's lessor grandson, Kublai Khan, who created the Yuan Dynasty and became "the first non-Chinese Emperor to conquer all of China." Kublai Khan - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

My logic you say. No no no, that is yours logic, as I have said that you never get the concept currently and always try to randomly change my meanings.
Does India have the Golden Family.

Lets see here:
Is Mongolian part of the "Indian Ethnics Group".
Are these Mongolian part of the "Indian Ethnics Group" are the direct descendant of Genghis Khan.
Is India the originated land of Mongolian.

William the Conqueror was the first Norman King of England, yet British people never consider him as a non-British and claim that Norman dynasty was a subjugation period.
Besides the term "Chinese" here means "中原人(&#28450", but not "中國人". The meaning of the term "中國人" have been changing for thousands year. You have to know that the meaning of "中國人" (Chinese) nowadays is not the same with he old one.

 

[Pandora]

No country can prosper without fixing their ties with their immediate neighbours. Economies can only prosper if one doesn't have a sword hanging over one's head. Asian countries should learn a lesson from unions like GCC and EU.

 

[VietHome]

I suggest u should compare Vietnam with GuangXi province and YunNan province of PRC, 2012 Vietnam GDP just reach our 2x WestSouth not rich province situations, equal with GuangXi province but lower than YunNan province. Yes Vietnam is much weaker than China coz ur whole country economy only as similar as our a not rich province.

Why not Xinjiang, Qinghai, Gansu, etc.? You cannot pick-and-choose statistics that fit your narrative. Remember those provinces are a lot bigger than Vietnam.

Btw, looking down to Vietnam? How's about you look up to America's States?

U can count out thousands of explain why Vietnam weaker than China, but the truth Vietnam is a poor and weak country, more Vietnamese special young girls from the North Vietnam like to black in China, the China could bring more chance and more money earning for ur Vietnamese ppl living in China.（If u need i can show u many pics about Vietnamese and girls black in China and arrested by China policemen will send back to Vietnam）

You should come to Vietnam before calling it "poor" and "weak"

I don't mean to be condescending, but why did you English get worse all the sudden?

If you meant "Girls kidnapped by human traffickers to sell to China?" Then I cannot imagine you went there while your country has a terrible history of "Japanese men takes Chinese women so that these women can bring back more money to their families!!"

If you meant "Women went to China to find job," then it is totally a normal situation as people moved around the world to seek employment. Chinese people go to many countries to find job as well. They even come to Vietnam where many of them work illegally in our fisheries

U can continue make up lies, but can't stop each year ur poor young Vietnamese from North Vietnam flood into China.

I urge you not to make hasty reactions and looks at the facts. Vietnamese had been enduring sub-par products, toxic vegetables, counterfeit clothing from China for many years now. If you hold you country as a tiny little angel that can do no wrong, that's up to you. But be aware that there are many people all over the world who don't believe it.

 

[walle]

Vietnam is free to pursue a foreign relations it see fit, but preaching to the us will inherently hurt their core interest. Vietnam is a south east Asia country not an Anglo one, china exerts a lot more influence be it thought culture and economic exchanges a role us cant replace.

It will take another world war for the US to become militarily aligned or sign a mutual defense pact with Vietnam.