Facing China threat, Vietnam seeks American balance

[Rechoice]

Before the Mongols conquered Song China, the first conquered the xixia, the entire central asia, persia, the abbasid caliphate in Iraq, and then Russia. Their empire was then ten times bigger than China. The mongols then drew upon soldiers and engineers from all parts of their massive new empire and it took them over 30 years to conquer Song China while they swept over the steppes of Russia, central asia and to baghdad in a few years. The Mongols also used hundreds of thousands of northern Chinese soldiers from the former Jin dynasty to conquer the Song.

The Manchus first defeated the Mongols and Koreans and forced both of them to ally with their state. They then drew thousands of defectors from China. The manchus could not even penetrate Shanhai pass at the great wall until the Ming general Wu Sangui defected to their side with his army, because rebels under Li Zicheng overthrew the Ming emperor and killed Wu's father. They then managed to take over China only with the help of Wu Sangui and his massive army of .ming defectors. In fact most of their soldiers were not Manchu but Han people.

Britain ruled over a massive empire already when it attacked China in the Opium Wars. Britain ruled Canada, India, singapore and parts of Malaya and colonies in Africa. The British used armies of Indian sepoys to attack China and fleets based in India and resupplied in Malaya and Singapore. Te population of their entire empire was near China's population and their territory was bigger than China.

All those empires which attacked China were bigger in China in botth population and area.

Population of Mongolia was much less than population of myth China, Mongolian were on horseback riding around the world, they ruled you only.
and Man Chus (Jerchens), they were also with very few number people.
and Japan ? read more about first Sino-Japan war.

 

[Wholegrain]

Sorry Kid, we'll never give up to China about anything.
China robbed our Islands when we were in weak time, but we still fighting brave and hold most Islands in our control.

You can laugh with Ah-Q spirit that you win, but remember, Japanese was slaughter Chinese in WW2 like trash mud, and you can not against them until USA and SU kick them out for you.
And until now, Taiwanese still love Japan more than PRC ...

Of course that things can happen, may be. But they never can crush VN so easily.

Hmm, The wars were happend, and many people died, USA do it, China do it, Cambodia do it, in more brutal way than Vietnam, read it in history.

Japan and Vichy France occupied Vietnam and the Vietnamese immediately switched over to their new masters without resistance.

Germany slaughtered Russians and raped thousands of them and without American help the Soviet Union would be in the dirt, the Russians, Holy Roman empire and eastern europe also got smashed by the Mongols, and China fought both the Soviet Union and Japan during World War 2.

The Soviet Union attacked China in Xinjiang in 1937 and in 1944 in the Ili Rebellion when the Red Army invaded in support of Uyghur communists led by Ahmad Jan Qasim. If fighting against China is called help, I don't know what else to say about your twisted logic.

This is the non existent state of Vietnam during France and Japanese rule

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/40/Indochine_française_(1913).jpg

This is China, and Japan never occupied even one fourth of its total area.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/cb/Japanese_Occupation_of_China_1940.svg

 

[Wholegrain]

Population of Mongolia was much less than population of myth China, Mongolian were on horseback riding around the world, they ruled you only.
and Man Chus (Jerchens), they were also with very few number people.
and Japan ? read more about first Sino-Japan war.

Incorrect. The Mongols conquered the entire central asia, persia, russian steppes and eastern europe and even defeated the armies of the Holy Roman empire and Hungary. Tens of thousands of western knights were slaughtered at the battle of Mohi by the Mongols and at Legnica the Mongols cut the ears of thousands of knights as trophies after their victory over the Germans and Poles. The Mongols defeated all of the european armies and withdrew only because of Ogedei Khan's death.

The Mongols ruled the Russian steppes and central asian the longest, liar. Look up the Golden Horde and Chagatai Khanate.

It was only after the Mongols defeated the Russians, Europeans, Abbasid Caliphate, Khwarezm empire in Persia and Jin dynasty that they managed to conquer China. The entire population and size of their empire was larger than China and they used hundeds of thousands of NON MONGOL soldiers from their whole empire to invade Song China. In fact, the majority of their army was northern Chinese. They also used tens of thousands of Central Aians form Bukhara, Iraqi Engineers to build siege trebuchets at Xiangyang, and thousands of Alans from the Russian steppes to attack China. China also killed the Grand Khan Mongke in battle.

The Mongols who took over 30 years to conquer Song China while they flattened the rest of asia and eastern europe in a few years, were ten times Chinas size and had an army matching in numbers after they conquered central asia, persia, iraq, the steppes of Russis and forced the Russians to kneel.

Again, the majority of the Qing armies were not Manchus, most of their army was made out of Ming defectors like Wu Sngui who let them in China at Shanhai pass. Before any Ming soldiers defeted, the Ming were defeating the Manchus and the Manchu leader Nurhaci was shot to death at the Battle of Ningyuan and his army defeated. If there was not rebellion by Li Zicheng and not defections, they would not be able to conquer China. They managed to take over because their armies mostly defectors from the Ming, who defected because the Ming Emperor was overthrown by the rebel Li Zicheng. Both Zhang Xianzhong and Li Zicheng were leading massive peasant uprisings in China when the Qing invaded.

Russia's army and navy were slaughtered by Japan in the Russo Japanese. Russia's population and army were also bigger than Japan. Japan also defeated the entire American, British and Dutch colonial armies in southeast asia during World War2 and occupied the entire indonesia, malaysia, Philippines and burma. They slaughtered and raped 100,000 Filipinos at the Battle of Manila.

 

[Viet]

Japan and Vichy France occupied Vietnam and the Vietnamese immediately switched over to their new masters without resistance.

Don´t be rediculous.

Germany slaughtered Russians and raped thousands of them and without American help the Soviet Union would be in the dirt, the Russians, Holy Roman empire and eastern europe also got smashed by the Mongols, and China fought both the Soviet Union and Japan during World War 2.

The Soviet Union attacked China in Xinjiang in 1937 and in 1944 in the Ili Rebellion when the Red Army invaded in support of Uyghur communists led by Ahmad Jan Qasim. If fighting against China is called help, I don't know what else to say about your twisted logic.

This is the non existent state of Vietnam during France and Japanese rule.

Not exact. Vietnam, Laos and Cambodia were united as Indochina. The French sent Vietnamese Mandarins as state officials to Laos and Cambodia. Because the Viets were considered as smart and educated. Moreover the French kept the Vietnamese Emperors in power.

This is China, and Japan never occupied even one fourth of its total area.

Japan controlled most populated regions of China during the war. Without the help of America and the Red Army, you were still a slave to the Japanese. China was poor, weak and desperate.

 

[Wholegrain]

Don´t be rediculous.

Not exact. Vietnam, Laos and Cambodia were united as Indochina. The French sent Vietnamese Mandarins as state officials to Laos and Cambodia. Because the Viets were considered as smart and educated. Moreover the French kept the Vietnamese Emperors in power.


Japan controlled most populated regions of China during the war. Without the help of America and the Red Army, you were still a slave to the Japanese. China was poor, weak and desperate.

The puppet slave Emperor of Vietnam was not supposed to be subjugated to another people. EMPEROR? Get it? Your emperor was wiping the shoes of the French while the French were putting down Vietnamese peasants rebellions and massacring Vietnamese.

Vietnam is the country which was occupied by France, Japan, Republic of China, Britain all in succession and its calling other people slaves. it received massive help from Communist bloc countries during its wars with France and America and would never have won without that help.

Germany controlled most populated regions of the Soviet Union during the war and without American help they would be slaves to Germany. The Red Army attacked China twice, first in 1937 then in 1944 again in the Ili Rebellion while China was in the middle of fighting Japan. I don't know if attacking other countries counts as help in your twisted way of thinking.

 

[nufix]

Kein Problem mein Freund. Wir können gern duzen. In der Tat sind Indonesia und Vietnam Freunde, da gibt es kaum Konflikte.

Genau. Auch In der Tat finde ich dass, Indonesia und Vietnam zusammen fuer diese Konflikte des Sudchinesische Meers aufklaeren sollten. Aber jeder Land hat verschiedene Aufloesung, danach mussen wir in diesem Forum ueber diese Unterschiede ordentlich diskutieren.

 

[Rechoice]

Incorrect. The Mongols conquered the entire central asia, persia, russian steppes and eastern europe and even defeated the armies of the Holy Roman empire and Hungary. Tens of thousands of western knights were slaughtered at the battle of Mohi by the Mongols and at Legnica the Mongols cut the ears of thousands of knights as trophies after their victory over the Germans and Poles. The Mongols defeated all of the european armies and withdrew only because of Ogedei Khan's death.

The Mongols ruled the Russian steppes and central asian the longest, liar. Look up the Golden Horde and Chagatai Khanate.

It was only after the Mongols defeated the Russians, Europeans, Abbasid Caliphate, Khwarezm empire in Persia and Jin dynasty that they managed to conquer China. The entire population and size of their empire was larger than China and they used hundeds of thousands of NON MONGOL soldiers from their whole empire to invade Song China. In fact, the majority of their army was northern Chinese. They also used tens of thousands of Central Aians form Bukhara, Iraqi Engineers to build siege trebuchets at Xiangyang, and thousands of Alans from the Russian steppes to attack China. China also killed the Grand Khan Mongke in battle.

The Mongols who took over 30 years to conquer Song China while they flattened the rest of asia and eastern europe in a few years, were ten times Chinas size and had an army matching in numbers after they conquered central asia, persia, iraq, the steppes of Russis and forced the Russians to kneel.

Again, the majority of the Qing armies were not Manchus, most of their army was made out of Ming defectors like Wu Sngui who let them in China at Shanhai pass. Before any Ming soldiers defeted, the Ming were defeating the Manchus and the Manchu leader Nurhaci was shot to death at the Battle of Ningyuan and his army defeated. If there was not rebellion by Li Zicheng and not defections, they would not be able to conquer China. They managed to take over because their armies mostly defectors from the Ming, who defected because the Ming Emperor was overthrown by the rebel Li Zicheng. Both Zhang Xianzhong and Li Zicheng were leading massive peasant uprisings in China when the Qing invaded.

Russia's army and navy were slaughtered by Japan in the Russo Japanese. Russia's population and army were also bigger than Japan. Japan also defeated the entire American, British and Dutch colonial armies in southeast asia during World War2 and occupied the entire indonesia, malaysia, Philippines and burma. They slaughtered and raped 100,000 Filipinos at the Battle of Manila.

Your explanation is not answer for my question: population of Mongolia, Man Chus and Japan were less than population of China.
Mongolian conquered China, was not depended on NON MONGOL soldiers, Jerchen invaded, defeated China was not depended on many chinese defectors were available. And last, Japan defeated China and they have been done the same victory on others Russian, American, British and Dutch colonial armies. But Japanese couldn't ruled Russia, American and Britain in homeland.
Mongolia, Man Chus and Japan ruled China. It's the truth. Truth is is hurt, isn't it ?

 

[ChinaToday]

Population of Mongolia was much less than population of myth China, Mongolian were on horseback riding around the world, they ruled you only.
and Man Chus (Jerchens), they were also with very few number people.
and Japan ? read more about first Sino-Japan war.

even if mongol ruled us but what is that got to do with Vietnam? only useless like you always cheering for others

 

[Rechoice]

even if mongol ruled us but what is that got to do with Vietnam? only useless like you always cheering for others

Three time Mongolian soldiers ran way from Vietnam. There was enough.

 

[ChinaToday]

Three time Mongolian soldiers ran way from Vietnam. There was enough.

we colonised useless Vietnam for thousand years I m more than happy

 

[Rechoice]

we colonised useless Vietnam for thousand years I m more than happy

At the end, dirty invaders ran away.

Yes you have Ah Q mentality, then don't feel any a shameful bout it.

 

[ChinaToday]

At the end, dirty invaders ran away.

Yes you have Ah Q mentality, then don't feel any a shameful bout it.

yeah yeah bla bla bla couldnt argue and came out with this at the end they ran away sh@t you are so lame go back to school kid , don't embarrass yourself here

 

[Rechoice]

yeah yeah bla bla bla couldnt argue and came out with this at the end they ran away sh@t you are so lame go back to school kid , don't embarrass yourself here

Ah Q can't understand the different between a shame and a happy. You are happy when USA control Taiwan now,

 

[ChinaToday]

Ah Q can't understand the different between a shame and a happy. You are happy when USA control Taiwan now,

LOL again making up sh@t and cheerleading for other people achievement typical useless people mentality enough said

 

[Wholegrain]

Your explanation is not answer for my question: population of Mongolia, Man Chus and Japan were less than population of China.
Mongolian conquered China, was not depended on NON MONGOL soldiers, Jerchen invaded, defeated China was not depended on many chinese defectors were available. And last, Japan defeated China and they have been done the same victory on others Russian, American, British and Dutch colonial armies. But Japanese couldn't ruled Russia, American and Britain in homeland.
Mongolia, Man Chus and Japan ruled China. It's the truth. Truth is is hurt, isn't it ?

Vietnam was ruled by China for 1,000 years, and France, Japan and Britain all controlled Vietnam. Japanese also never ruled China. They overran less than 25% of China in World War 2, and less than 10% of China in the First Sino Japanese war.

Countries defeat each other all the time. Germany flattened the armies of other european countries during world war 2, combined, all those countries were all bigger than Germany in both area and population. Germany also killed over 25 million Soviets during World War 2 and overran most of their populated area and reached Moscow. They were only beaten back with American aid to the Soviets. The Soviet Union was over ten times Germanys sizes and bigger in population.

Also keep humiliating yourself because you know nothing about history. Majority of Mongol army was NON MONGOL. The Mongols used northern Chinese infantry, Alan cavalry, Iraqi engineers and people from all over their empire.

A Short History of the Chinese People - L. Carrington Goodrich - Google Books

Instead of adopting a policy of peaceful acquiescence, the Chinese were urged to attack the Mongols. This was political suicide, but it took a bitter war to prove it; hostilities lasted for forty-five years and involved China's southeastern coast, the center, and southwest flank. Unquestionably in the Chinese the Mongols encountered more stubborn opposition and better defense than any of their other opponents in Europe and Asia had shown. They needed every military artifice known at that time, for they had to fight in terrain that was difficult for their horses, in regions infested with diseases fatal to large numbers of their forces, and in boats to which they were not accustomed. Their success was probably due to their use of the ingenuity of every prisoner of war and every ally who had some special skill. From Mesopotamia they brought technicians to the east to dislodge the Chinese. From the Caucasus they brought the Alans-by 1442, some 30,000 in all-who became the guardsmen of a succession of Mongol Khans. In the campaigns waged in western Asia (1253-1258) by Jenghis' grandson Hulagu, "a thousand engineers from China had to get themselves ready to serve the catapults, and to be able to cast imflammable substances." One of Hulagu's principal generals in his successful attack against the caliphate of Baghdad was Chinese.

Mongol conquest of the Song Dynasty - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

SAYYED AJALL ? Encyclopaedia Iranica

Military personnel along with artisans, technicians, and skilled workers had little choice but to accept the disruption and often irreversible upheaval to their lives that surrender to the Mongols involved, but for many the uprooting and dispersal to other unknown destinations within the expanding empire opened up unique opportunities. With traditional bonds of loyalty and service irrevocably broken, a new generation of loyal and highly skilled servants emerged to form the administrative backbone of the blossoming imperial state. This new corps, and in particular those who entered it as children or were born into Mongol service, owed unquestioning allegiance to their initially Mongol masters, and their aspirations were to rise through the ranks and join the growing multi-ethnic elite. To those select who entered the Great Khan’s bodyguard, his kesig, this sense of allegiance applied even more keenly, and all other sources of identity such as clan, religion, and province would have been secondary to the pride of belonging to such an illustrious corps.

The Yuan Shi biography of Sayyed Ajall (tr. in Armijo-Hussein, pp. 17-26, 245-51) confuses the early years of his life, as it was presumably his father, Kamāl-al-Din, who was taken as a “hostage” and forced to serve as a bodyguard to Čengiz Khan, rather than the nine-year-old Sayyed Ajall. It was also his father to whom the family nickname, Sai-tien-ch’ih Šan-ssu-ting, “Saiyid elëi,” or Sayyed the Envoy Šams din (i.e., Šams-al-Din) was first attached by his Mongol masters, who were as usual confused by Persian name strings.

Sayyed Ajall’s first official position came in 1229, when he was appointed yeke (great or imperial) darugači (see DĀRUḠA) for the provinces of Feng, Čing, and Yün-nei under Ögedei Qāʾān and then a few years later dāruḡači in T’ai-yuan and P’ing-yang. Though the title suggested a demotion, the reality was that the new position carried far more responsibility and that he was acting as a representative of two princely houses and the Qāʾān, rather than solely for Ögedei Qāʾān, which would have entitled him the addition of yeke. Within a few years the young Sayyed Ajall was awarded more powers and prestige when he was made a yarquči (judge or arbitrator) for the region of Čung-tu, the capital of the northern lands once held by the Čin. His duties at this time would have involved the registration of the population, the assessment and allocation of taxation, and the dispensation of justice. It was in this period of his career that the rising official encountered Maḥmud Yalavāj, one of the most influential and powerful of the new breed of administrators from Turkistan. It is likely that Sayyed Ajall also served under Qubilai Khan in some capacity during these early years since Rašid-al-Din Fażl-Allāh records Möngke Khan asking permission from his brother, Qubilai, to employ Sayyed Ajall’s services during the Sichwan campaign against the Song in 1253 (Rašid-al-Din, tr., p. 287). It is known that Sayyed Ajall arranged supplies and provisions for Qubilai’s hungry and exhausted troops when they first arrived at Dali during the Yunnan campaign of the early 1250s, which made a very favorable impression on the future Great Khan. Whatever his position, he appears to have kept a low profile during the dangerous and turbulent years of Ögedei rule and emerged in 1251 associated with Qubilai’s retainers, and as such he was again sent to Čang-tu as a yarquči to pacify and control the army and the people, a position he retained for a further decade (Bell, p. 468).

Facts On File History Database Center

'Umar Shams-ud-Din's usual Persian name, Sayyid Ajall, was an honorary title for descendants of Muhammad, while the Chinese Sai Dianchi (also spelled Sai Tien-ch'ih) derives from Mongolian Sayid Elchi (Sayyid the Envoy); he inherited both titles from his Bukharan grandfather, who first joined Mongol service. 'Umar Shams-ud-Din first served Ögedei Khan (1229–41) as Darughachi (overseer) in Inner Mongolia and Shanxi and Jarghuchi (judge) in Yanjing (modern Beijing) and then Möngke Khan (1251–59) as governor in Yanjing and commissary for the Sichuan campaign. In 1264 Qubilai Khan appointed Sayyid Ajall head of the branch secretariat of Shaanxi and Sichuan. Sayyid Ajall expanded the population and economy as he carefully moved Mongol-held Sichuan, still threatened by unconquered Song strongholds, from military to civilian rule. I

Ossetians - Alans in China

Atachi under Moengke-Khan, participated in the campaign against Soun, fought Chinese armies in Sichuan province and Tiao-uy mountains. For his bravery he was awarded the badge of honor (Tiger Paitza), got silver and the title of 'commander of 1,000'.
Under Kublai(Khubilai)-Khan, he fought against the Chingizids, that opposed the Yuan dynasty. Atachi fought against Arigbuka, then supressed rebellion in China, in 1267 again campaigned agains Soun, under Mongolian warlords Bayan and Asha. During his military career, Atachi participated in more than 20 major battles in China and Central Asia.

Ossetia & Ossetians

According to Chinese sources, 10,000 Jases served in Mongolian army in China, mostly in Jasin Guard. In 1286 the Jasin Guard was officially created. Jasin Guard took active part in wars against Soun and suffered heavy losses. In two regions of Yuan Empire: Chaokhe and Sougu, Jasin military settlements were organized. Their tasks included the equipment of the army with weapons and other military accessories. After Soun campaign all Jasin regiments were included in Jasin Guard.

Iraqi, Persian and Chinese engineers were used by the Mongols to break a six year siege at Xiangyang

The Empire of the Steppes: A History of Central Asia - René Grousset - Google Books

Genghis Khan & the Mongol Conquests 1190-1400 - S. R. Turnbull - Google Books

Fighting Techniques of the Oriental World: Equiptment, Combat Skills, and ... - Christer Joregensen, Eric Niderost, Chris McNab - Google Books


Medieval Chinese armies: 1260 - 1520 - Google Books

Science and Civilisation in China: Volume 5, Chemistry and Chemical ... - Joseph Needham - Google Books

Technology in World Civilization: A Thousand-Year History - Arnold Pacey - Google Books

Medieval Siege Weapons (2): Byzantium, the Islamic World & India Ad 475-1526 - David Nicolle - Google Books

China: A New Cultural History - 许倬云, Cho-Yun Hsu - Google Books

Science and Civilisation in China: Part 3 Civil engineering and nautics - Joseph Needham - Google Books


Manchus only even penetrated past the Great Wall because the Ming General Wu Sangui and his entire army joined them and let them get through, because the rebel leader Li Zicheng defeated the Ming Emperor.

Battle of Shanhai Pass - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The Manchu leader Nurhaci died of wounds when he was defeated by the Ming at Ningyuan

Battle of Ningyuan - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Chinese defectors in Qing army

Servants of the Dynasty: Palace Women in World History - Google Books

Fall of Imperial China - Frederic Wakeman - Google Books

Fall of Imperial China - Frederic Wakeman - Google Books