Face Veil removal request in Western Countries

[Hold up]

 

[HannibalBarca]

I'm amazed that someone in this thread who is speaking like a moderate anti-veil or etc... he's still online and thanked by some...When in other threads he used to call Muslims or migrants subhumans c*nt/ Dwellers sc*m / that they should die in the mediterranean/ That they should be sunk-shoot at by navy guards etc...

Ah sometimes...

But here my 2 cents... Culture is like History... it's written by the winner...

 

[abdulbarijan]

I understand your point, I agreed with parts of what the individual said and referred to the rest as 'interesting'.
More so, No it wouldn't be an issue IF a woman chose to wear it back on because the highest rate of conversion of the Islamic Faith is the West. A goth may one day choose to take her out of that phase of dressing all dark to finally a perky pink top. Changes is something the West is very used to.

Dear Api Hazoor, when you cite one piece of evidence, don't forget the other piece which you referred to as irrelevant just a few posts ago. Don't forget that the majority of the population in the UK (about 57% if im not mistaken according to the survey by YouGov) supports an outright ban on the burqa. As far as the conversion rate goes, in the last demographic survey of the UK, the religious distribution estimated the Muslim population at 4.5%. Now among these 4.5%, as a generic principle let's say half are men and half are women. So now you have 2.25% of potential burqa wearers. But the story doesn't end there, among these 2.25% how many wear the veil, the numbers are unknown, as per theguardian who looked at the number of "working women" the number "is likely to be low, very low". Add to that, the fact that you willingly giving it up (your choice) for a set period of time so as the norm becomes "no face veil whatsoever" ... If you really think that someone would be able to take the face veil after that regardless of the legal consideration, your just kidding yourself. I'm sorry, but there is no other way to say it.

-Regarding your other pointers. Let's see...

I think its unfair people want to exercise privileges and rights of the West yet do not share the responsibility. As a community people come together if a mishap happened, as a Country too. You want to move to the West for better prospects, quality of life or whatever it is that brings you here, yet you do not want to conform or meet middle ground to their law of land. You do not want to share the pain or the loss of others as a Nation and that is selfish.

• Let's not forget, freedom to practice religion is one of those rights which you claim to provide. But like I said, anyone who is going to the west knowing full well what goes on and what kind of restrictions may apply in the future is responsible for him or herself. It's up to the west to decide which rights and privileges it will award different people and thats perfectly fine with me. What I detest is the audacity to talk all big about diversity, openness, freedom of religion etc etc. when you practice something entirely different.

In countries such as South Asia it takes a very long time and a few major falls till one finally comes to sense. In the West its not like that, if something happens, actions will be put in place to prevent any further loss. You seem to forget that. You also seem to forget and are completely oblivious to the fact that this is not their culture. A western woman wouldn't be wearing short skirts in Eastern countries openly because its considered 'provocative' they're expected to respect the Law and lets be honest, they are. You know it. Yet when threats or abuses have happened in the West using a certain attire and all they request is for the current time you remove the veil due to security, its taking away rights? Isn't that disrespectful? You want to stay here, share the loss too.

• Firstly, get off your high horse and look up the rate of gun violence in the US, and how many school shootings occur, and how many people die every year and tell me how quickly "the greatest country of the world" has moved to solve the problem that is among the biggest causes of unnatural human death in the US.
• Secondly, you seem to be oblivious to the very concept of culture. E.B Taylor defines culture as "that complex whole which includes knowledge, belief, art, morals, law, custom and any other capabilities and habits acquired by man as a member of society." and here I thought "openness" "freedom" "inclusiveness" were part of the moral, custom and legal fabric of the west thereby the western culture. So you can't compare apples with oranges, the east doesn't even claim to have any of that, the west does, and therefore we should take your own claims to form an opinion about you. Isn't that fair and reasonable?

 

[Boomin' Bomber I.J.]

God made us look different for a reason. Your face is your identity. Do not hide it. Even in the Quran, Allah only asks women going out of their homes to cover the bosoms with loose garments - A chadar, dopatta, or even a jacket suffices. No mention of head covering.

 

[Divergent]

Dear Api Hazoor, when you cite one piece of evidence, don't forget the other piece which you referred to as irrelevant just a few posts ago. Don't forget that the majority of the population in the UK (about 57% if im not mistaken according to the survey by YouGov) supports an outright ban on the burqa. As far as the conversion rate goes, in the last demographic survey of the UK, the religious distribution estimated the Muslim population at 4.5%. Now among these 4.5%, as a generic principle let's say half are men and half are women. So now you have 2.25% of potential burqa wearers. But the story doesn't end there, among these 2.25% how many wear the veil, the numbers are unknown, as per theguardian who looked at the number of "working women" the number "is likely to be low, very low". Add to that, the fact that you willingly giving it up (your choice) for a set period of time so as the norm becomes "no face veil whatsoever" ... If you really think that someone would be able to take the face veil after that regardless of the legal consideration, your just kidding yourself. I'm sorry, but there is no other way to say it.

-Regarding your other pointers. Let's see...

• Let's not forget, freedom to practice religion is one of those rights which you claim to provide. But like I said, anyone who is going to the west knowing full well what goes on and what kind of restrictions may apply in the future is responsible for him or herself. It's up to the west to decide which rights and privileges it will award different people and thats perfectly fine with me. What I detest is the audacity to talk all big about diversity, openness, freedom of religion etc etc. when you practice something entirely different.

• Firstly, get off your high horse and look up the rate of gun violence in the US, and how many school shootings occur, and how many people die every year and tell me how quickly "the greatest country of the world" has moved to solve the problem that is among the biggest causes of unnatural human death in the US.
• Secondly, you seem to be oblivious to the very concept of culture. E.B Taylor defines culture as "that complex whole which includes knowledge, belief, art, morals, law, custom and any other capabilities and habits acquired by man as a member of society." and here I thought "openness" "freedom" "inclusiveness" were part of the moral, custom and legal fabric of the west thereby the western culture. So you can't compare apples with oranges, the east doesn't even claim to have any of that, the west does, and therefore we should take your own claims to form an opinion about you. Isn't that fair and reasonable?

It is advisable not enforced. Apples and oranges comparison was you the amount of time I had to emphasise I'm talking about the 'face', keep it to the face. You can't be talking about IPhones and compare it to a TV, you can however talk about IPhones and compare it to Samsungs since they're on the same wave.

I am on no high horse but I sure as right have the right to express concerns on a mutual basis. So calm your dull wit.

The point about how 'West brands itself as liberators' I've not opposed, therefore to bring that in again is quite pointless.

Openess and inclusiveness are there in place except situations and circumstances may change due to security threats or if it endangers lives. Which it has. In the same sense how Pakistan took millions of Afghans but due to attacks eventually had to close borders, why? Because of security issues right? Does this strip Pakistan off the previous openess it was tolerant of? No. Rather it shows because of the situation it eventually had to close its border down, does this then make Pakistan a 'facist?' Or 'racist'? No.

There are people from Pakistan who want the ban or who also agree that the West is tolerant of attires and gives allowances. What would you say to them?

 

[Junoonay]

It is advisable not enforced. Apples and oranges comparison was you the amount of time I had to emphasise I'm talking about the 'face', keep it to the face. You can't be talking about IPhones and compare it to a TV, you can however talk about IPhones and compare it to Samsungs since they're on the same wave.

I am on no high horse but I sure as right have the right to express concerns on a mutual basis. So calm your dull wit.

The point about how 'West brands itself as liberators' I've not opposed, therefore to bring that in again is quite pointless.

Openess and inclusiveness are there in place except situations and circumstances may change due to security threats or if it endangers lives. Which it has. In the same sense how Pakistan took millions of Afghans but due to attacks eventually had to close borders, why? Because of security issues right? Does this strip Pakistan off the previous openess it was tolerant of? No. Rather it shows because of the situation it eventually had to close its border down, does this then make Pakistan a 'facist?' Or 'racist'? No.

There are people from Pakistan who want the ban or who also agree that the West is tolerant of attires and gives boundaries. What would you say to them?

Pakistan is an Islamic Republic not a liberal Western democracy. Stop comparing apples and oranges.

 

[Divergent]

Pakistan is an Islamic Republic not a liberal Western democracy. Stop comparing apples and oranges.

Are you deluded? I'm giving a comparison of security so apple and orange yourself out.

 

[Verve]

1. Work with 'advisable' and get the veils off
2. Throw a false flag in there for good measures (if advisory approach is not working)
3. Ban

 

[Junoonay]

Are you deluded? I'm giving a comparison of security so apple and orange yourself out.

You need to refresh your comprehension skills if you have any. Liberal Western democracies work under the pretext of separated state and church, where as an Islamic Republic does the exact opposite.

 

[Divergent]

You need to refresh your comprehension skills if you have any. Liberal Western democracies work under the pretext of separated state and church, where as an Islamic Republic does the exact opposite.

You need to refresh your reading skills. I'm comparing the two security issues, accentuating that when a threat is posed it changes circumstances, Had you have read anything that I said you'd be with it. From the very first post I implied 'due to the current climate', you can't talk for another Country's affairs when you're not here nor witnessing what it undergoes or how a near miss terrorist attack was prevented because a man disguised in a burqa and face veil on tube left a bag of bomb at a subway as witnessed on CCTV AND due to previous incidents.

Take a seat.

 

[Hassan Guy]

Are you deluded? I'm giving a comparison of security so apple and orange yourself out.

ooo sassy

 

[WarFariX]

I'm comparing the two security issues, accentuating that when a threat is posed it changes circumstances, Had you have read anything that I said you'd be with it. From the very first post I implied 'due to the current climate', you can't talk for another Country's affairs when you're not here nor witnessing what it undergoes or how a near miss terrorist attack was prevent because a man disguised in a burqa and face veil on left a bag of bomb at a subway as witnessed on CCTV AND due to previous incidents.

Take a seat.

Women , you proclaim yourself to be a liberal and a true liberal would never interfere in others issues but you are interfering in Pakistan's laws and rules and the islamic democracy of pakistan which has a constitution based much on islamic laws too. There have been less or no incidents in pakistan where terrorists used veil as undercover. this statement is just a stupid justification used by western countries to ban islamic clothing. If you truely are a liberal then keep your views to yourself and accept others views too.. remember this is not UK or USA or europe or Australia where you might have been raised , this is pakistan , a islamic country which was made for muslims to practice religion. sonce you dont have any feelings for religion as you werent brought up in that type of environment , you have no right to issue in our country's matters too. You were raised in a different society , (thats not ur mistake) , you have lived among people with very different views , so when you come here , you see people with different approach than yours. You think that people like u who are 1 in a 1000 can change the whole 999 people's thinking? off course not...now sonce u r still trying to change 999 people's thinking , who is the extremist here , you or 999 people? you may not realize it but you are as much as extremist of other end of the see saw as much as radical religious extremists that are residing here...the reason why i call you extremists is because you hate the fact that people like or maybe are supposed to (bound to) islamic laws and that thing makes you feel angry....i will not talk much now as there arent many people like u in pak and neither can u ppl be succesfull in spreading ur sort of thinking among the 20+million population..bye bye...

veil isnt compulsory but hijab is ....veil is just optional ,, however there are different contexts on ahadith...some say you must and some recommend it...

 

[Junoonay]

I implied 'due to the current climate', you can't talk for another Country's affairs when you're not here nor witnessing what it undergoes or how a near miss terrorist attack was prevent because a man disguised in a burqa and face veil on left a bag of bomb at a subway as witnessed on CCTV AND due to previous incidents.

What the bloody hell does this even mean? Do you even English?

Also, security situations are different in Pakistan vs USA (for example). Pakistan is hurt by alot of non-state actors working to destabilize Pakistan; it has absolutely nothing to do with face veils or modest clothing. As a matter of fact, Pakistan has some of the highest number of women wearing face veils.

On a political philosophical context, you are comparing two different ideologies. Liberal Western democracies promises you rights, and inclusiveness; Pakistan does not. So you can't compare apples with oranges, Pakistan doesn't even claim to have any of that but West does, therefore we should judge you according to your own standards.

 

[abdulbarijan]

I don't see the need to ban Burqa for the "Personal safety" of the wearer. I am strongly for banning Burqa as a whole. I am all up for the safety of other people, and thats why i'd ban it. Most of the hate crimes in the west against Muslims from time to time turn out to be fake or fabricated, so thats not really an issue. if its a problem on campus etc I don't think Muslim women are that stupid and sensitive to not stand up for their faith and probably response to the criticism.
Would I be comfortable in the west with someone fully covered? ofcourse not.

As far as "bra bombs" are concerned, thats a creativity lol. I mean people have been drugs in babies pampers. Yet my original point still stands. If it comes to a burqa or face veiled criminal or everyday outfit one, The former can't be identified by the witnesses etc, the latter can. If a man is hiding something in his rectum doesn't mean his face ain't out there. You are missing out on the important point THAT if someone was to cover his face with a mask or something, people present would infact be a little vary of the said man or woman and also feel uncomfortable. When it comes to face veils and burqa however, we are forced to accept it as norm as people keep shoving it down our throat. That normalizing takes away the vary factor from the people and can prove dangerous.

Again I don't see ANY REASON why a muslim will wear a burqa much less defend it, i get it I wear burqa from time to time in case I'm lazy and can't be bothered to press my clothes BUT never in a million reasons would i ever defend this stupid garment especially not using the "holy scriptures", and not with moral reasons when I know plenty of women are killed for not wearing it or are forced to wear it.

Just to put it in to context before replying, you've stated before; "You don't see a woman or anyone hiding bombs in their bikinis, yet they do in Burqas. Bikinis don't hide your identity, burqas and face veil do. " and now you state "I don't see the need to ban Burqa for the "Personal safety" of the wearer. I am strongly for banning Burqa as a whole. I am all up for the safety of other people, and thats why i'd ban it."

- Again, if your argument is for a burqa ban "for the safety of others" where you allude to how "women hiding bombs in their burqas" I've already stated the examples of terrorists using bras, underwear and putting explosives up the rectum to carry out terrorist acts. If we follow your reasoning, other articles of clothing are next and already have a documented history. Airport security in specific western countries does have the right to detain anyone and 'put up some gloves', if you get the drift of what I'm saying. Similarly, if you think what I'm saying is just me coming up with stuff in thin air, you should consult the case of what happened to a woman at the hands of the TSA, who was forced to take out her nipple piercings using pliers.

-Coming to the identification part, I've already addressed it multiple times. Many different substitutes exist already if they want to hide their identity. Secondly, if you follow this whole logic of "the terrorist will be identified after the attack if he or she was not wearing a burka." This implies that the terrorists want their identity hidden and that is in direct contradiction to what we know. In fact, there has actually been debate about the media censoring the names and faces of the terrorists, reasoning of which includes "they become globally recognised characters in the showbusiness side of this terrorist war, thus fulfilling one of their keenest desires." (theguardian, 2016)

 

[Divergent]

Women , you proclaim yourself to be a liberal and a true liberal would never interfere in others issues but you are interfering in Pakistan's laws and rules and the islamic democracy of pakistan which has a constitution based much on islamic laws too. There have been less or no incidents in pakistan where terrorists used veil as undercover. this statement is just a stupid justification used by western countries to ban islamic clothing. If you truely are a liberal then keep your views to yourself and accept others views too.. remember this is not UK or USA or europe or Australia where you might have been raised , this is pakistan , a islamic country which was made for muslims to practice religion. sonce you dont have any feelings for religion as you werent brought up in that type of environment , you have no right to issue in our country's matters too. You were raised in a different society , (thats not ur mistake) , you have lived among people with very different views , so when you come here , you see people with different approach than yours. You think that people like u who are 1 in a 1000 can change the whole 999 people's thinking? off course not...now sonce u r still trying to change 999 people's thinking , who is the extremist here , you or 999 people? you may not realize it but you are as much as extremist of other end of the see saw as much as radical religious extremists that are residing here...the reason why i call you extremists is because you hate the fact that people like or maybe are supposed to (bound to) islamic laws and that thing makes you feel angry....i will not talk much now as there arent many people like u in pak and neither can u ppl be succesfull in spreading ur sort of thinking among the 20+million population..bye bye...

veil isnt compulsory but hijab is ....veil is just optional ,, however there are different contexts on ahadith...some say you must and some recommend it...

Somebody woke up wrong side of the bed today, I'm not talking about advisory veil removal for security reasons in Pakistan, but in the West - its blatant in the title. Please read it again.

I have as much right to speak of issues IN Pakistan because I am bounded and give to Pakistan too.

Bye Bye.