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FA-50 and JF-17 are the finalists for Malaysian Air Force's Deal: Korea Times

One of the two is illogical in the context of the discussion of MalayAF buying a fighter. The problem and I say this in the very nonbiased way is you dont have a product to sell. So this is either a customary visit of no significance or the competition is very much on for which you do not have a product barring making presentations. I think something is not right and the Indian perspective appears incorrect due to lack of a product.
A

If there isn't a product to sell then what's the product in service right now and what's the product for which the GoI just signed a Rs 48,000 crore deal with HAL?

I am not glossing over the fact that HAL has poor experience in product support and that caused issues with ALH in Ecuador. Also, exports of high end fighters is a very competitive field and newcomers will find it very hard to compete with the likes of KAI who have landed several export sales.

My own expectation is that the sale won't materialise due to possible issues with timelines for delivery of the jets, unless Malaysia is ok with first deliveries to begin 48 months from contract signature. HAL's current focus is to deliver those 83 Tejas Mk1As and diverting fighters to an export order will not make the IAF happy. Bison retirements are pending and getting more urgent by the day. Unless HAL scales up to build 24 Tejas fighters per year, fulfilling an export order will necessarily mean delays in deliveries to the IAF.
 
If there isn't a product to sell then what's the product in service right now and what's the product for which the GoI just signed a Rs 48,000 crore deal with HAL?

I am not glossing over the fact that HAL has poor experience in product support and that caused issues with ALH in Ecuador. Also, exports of high end fighters is a very competitive field and newcomers will find it very hard to compete with the likes of KAI who have landed several export sales.

My own expectation is that the sale won't materialise due to possible issues with timelines for delivery of the jets, unless Malaysia is ok with first deliveries to begin 48 months from contract signature. HAL's current focus is to deliver those 83 Tejas Mk1As and diverting fighters to an export order will not make the IAF happy. Bison retirements are pending and getting more urgent by the day. Unless HAL scales up to build 24 Tejas fighters per year, fulfilling an export order will necessarily mean delays in deliveries to the IAF.

The "product" in service right now had to be excepted with major flaws. That is OK if it's IAF buying from HAL, but a foreign customer will not except that.

Secondly the "product" in service right now is not what the Malaysians are after, you will gave to take out Israeli radar and missiles.

Thirdly, as you mentioned, HALs delivery and timelines have been woeful and will mean delays to IAF planes.

Unsure how we got to 10 pages of this subject which was pushed off the back of fake news, but here we are I guess.....
 
Sir please enlighten me
young man - please read - ample of literature on Gripen; start with the design philisophy.
You cannot compare jf-17 to Gripen; they are in a total different class.
Then you may want to understand basics of electronics then understand each electronic capability it delivers etc.
 
The "product" in service right now had to be excepted with major flaws. That is OK if it's IAF buying from HAL, but a foreign customer will not except that.

Secondly the "product" in service right now is not what the Malaysians are after, you will gave to take out Israeli radar and missiles.

Thirdly, as you mentioned, HALs delivery and timelines have been woeful and will mean delays to IAF planes.

Unsure how we got to 10 pages of this subject which was pushed off the back of fake news, but here we are I guess.....

But they'll accept a technologically inferior product? LOL..ok whatever troll, whatever makes your day. :D
 
But they'll accept a technologically inferior product? LOL..ok whatever troll, whatever makes your day. :D


Pretty insane to even compare a "product" that is unkown and untested (in this case a Tejas without Israeli equipment) against something in service and combat proven, but then insanity has never been in short supply with Indians....
 
Listen you half blind, old man. Get off your high horse and stop throwing about ignorant opinions as fact. PAF is gearing up to field the JF-17 Block 3 against Rafale and you are trying to show Gripen as superior? South Africa makes neither the RBE2 nor the KLJ-7A nor anything anywhere near as capable. You know nothing about modern AESA radars. Don't use the weight of your position to support your ill-informed views.
Hold your horses mate.
 
If there isn't a product to sell then what's the product in service right now and what's the product for which the GoI just signed a Rs 48,000 crore deal with HAL?

I am not glossing over the fact that HAL has poor experience in product support and that caused issues with ALH in Ecuador. Also, exports of high end fighters is a very competitive field and newcomers will find it very hard to compete with the likes of KAI who have landed several export sales.

My own expectation is that the sale won't materialise due to possible issues with timelines for delivery of the jets, unless Malaysia is ok with first deliveries to begin 48 months from contract signature. HAL's current focus is to deliver those 83 Tejas Mk1As and diverting fighters to an export order will not make the IAF happy. Bison retirements are pending and getting more urgent by the day. Unless HAL scales up to build 24 Tejas fighters per year, fulfilling an export order will necessarily mean delays in deliveries to the IAF.
Bhai.
You have moved on to Mark 2 due to significant lack of capabilities on the/first badge. High weight and low range make it unweildy. Nowhere does anyone recognize that it is a fighter that has been happily inducted by the IAF. I have already alluded to it. Outside of the middle east where it flew and barely did any maneouvres beyond 3Gs, it has not flown in any international arenas. You are very welcome to hold on to an opinion about the strength of ypur claim about the product being a sellable one but the reality is no one shares that view outsode of India. As you have mentioned HALs reputation has taken a mauling due to the Dhruv fiasco and when you are a newbie the last thing you want is a bad rep with your first project which is about 2 decades too late.
I could go on but dont have the time. If the indians do a good job on Mk2 and it arrives in time (both of which seem implausible in aircraft development) then you may have a product which can be sold outside having been inducted and used in IAF on a regular basis.
Till then you do not have a proxuct to sell.
A
Listen you half blind, old man. Get off your high horse and stop throwing about ignorant opinions as fact. PAF is gearing up to field the JF-17 Block 3 against Rafale and you are trying to show Gripen as superior? South Africa makes neither the RBE2 nor the KLJ-7A nor anything anywhere near as capable. You know nothing about modern AESA radars. Don't use the weight of your position to support your ill-informed views.
The fact that you have let go of civility has already dragged your argument into the gutter where no one will stoop to repond to you. You use someone's disability in a derogatory way and ypu should be ashamed of yourself. This is an act unbecoming of a human being from a civilized society and I am truly ashamed to have read this post. How could you possibly stoop to this level?
POST REPORTED FOR MODERATION. I HOPE THEY LISTEN TO MY RECOMMENDATIONS.
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First of all, you have made excellent points and I agree with almost all of them and Jazāk Allāhu Khayran for the detailed answer.

Taking the holistic view and not knowing the version evaluated by RMAF so assuming it is the most up to date Block-II
Agreed that RMAF would have evaluated the Block-ll version but I highly doubt that the discussion will be about Block-ll. It's most probable that RMAF will go for Block-3 as production is presently set up for it and nobody will go for the previous version when the latest and better one is available. We have the example of Barma regarding this.

Aircraft:
Avionics - nearly equal with the 2032 edging out on known modes
ECM - identical
Performance - nearly identical(on paper) with the JF-17 having a single digit edge on T/w and better rate of climb and ceiling.

Advantage - Thunder

Avionics - Disagree with the nearly equal, JF17 has a bigger, better radar system with more energy to power it and other goodies.
ECM - Disagree with ECM being identical as well, JF17 is better.
Performance - somewhat agree.

Thunder surpasses F/A-50 by quite a good margin.

LIFT capability - F/A-50 has the clear edge with the basic design focused on imitating other aircraft and parameters. LIFT was a key RMAF requirement, the JF-17B does only itself.

Advantage -Golden Eagle

Agree F/A-50 being the better LIFT aircraft but RMAF is going to acquire a total of 36 aircraft of this catogary and the number is too much for LIFT role.

RMAF has 8 F-18 and 18 Sukhoi Su-30, So according to these numbers, it seems they need an LCA with additional LIFT capability not the other way around and F/A-50 does not fit in that class. Just my guess.

Onboarding:
Logistics - The F/A-50 shares a common engine with a current RMAF frontline fighter (F/A-18) which means spares and knowledge is cross functional and aircraft techs will take lesser time to familiarize themselves.
The RMAF operated the Rd-33 but has not for the last few years so that knowledge will take time to regain along with spares.

advantage - Golden Eagle

Both aircraft have the common mil-bus but the F/A-50 can share weapons with the F/A-18 from day one with all codes authorized. The JF-17 will only be permitted the Sidewinder with all other weapons requiring OEM authorization which will never come because of the JF-17s origin. Although the Russians might relent because of the engine sales.

Advantage - Golden Eagle

At a glance it's true but if you look closer you will see that the number of F-18 is too low to matter. The number of AIM-9X and AIM-120C7 is way too low to matter as well.

Agreed that RMAF will take a bit of time to relearn the maintenance knowledge but Pakistan has already done the grueling work of how to maintain JF-17/Rd93, which is arguably better than RMAF's knowledge as Pakistan has been extensively using JF-17 and teams from PAC will be there to improve upon their knowledge and dramatically reduce the relearn period. So, in essence, it's a minor thing.

Spare parts for F/A-50/GE404 will be quite expensive than JF-17/Rd93 and JF Package might be cheaper than F/A-50 plus RMAF might already have leftover spares in their inventory, So I guess this evens out.

RMAF will most probably get PL15 which is far better than AIM-120C7, even if they only get SD-10 it's equivalent. RMAF will also get PL10 as well which is good as well. Additionally, Russia might give permission to integrate their armament which can be used as well.

Arguably the JF has the advantage here.

Spares support - Malaysians have a good relationship and generally no territorial issues with any of the suppliers on the F/A-50 side. The Chinese do not have issues with the supply but there are territorial concerns that could potentially come up at some point.

Advantage - even(ish)

RMAF has a good relationship with Russia so they can acquire them directly from them as well. Chinese are looking to increase their footprint in the world alliances, so I think they are more motivated to improve their relationship with Malaysia and they will have assurance from Pakistan as well.

Diplomatic net result

If the F/A-50 is selected the Chinese will feel irked - they may not get palm oil and other smaller diplomatic nitpicks - but they need all the allies they can get so it wont be a complete abandonment. Pakistan really has no allies pool other than the usual disappointed “ummah” category.

if the JF-17 is selected - the stakeholders will possibly go as far as sanctions,severe diplomatic pressure and try to destabilize the current Malaysian government.

Advantage F/A-50

Ummah is for Muʾmins.
Pakistan has been kept afloat for quite many years by the help of ___________ + sellout money from the US, I think you guessed it :-) .

The last point is arguable but if that option is used china and Russia will probably jump in to take their place.

In my opinion, JF-17 is far ahead in the race but other things matter as well, So let's see what the future brings in.

Jazāk Allāhu Khayran Bro :)
 
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Doesn't FA 50 use Israeli radar. The same ones used on India's Tejas. They also use the same F404 engine. Personally not fancying India's chances of selling Tejas to Malaysia, but the truth is, if Korea is an frontrunner despite Israeli avionics then India has an chance too. Especially with a team supposed to travel to India to take a look.
FA-50 is a toy compared to the JF17, really not much of a competition unless Malaysians are bribed. I laughed when read the article.
 
Where is tejas? Lmao! I can tell you right now Malaysia airforce will not buy that stuff. They already have F-16 why go backwards in time with Tejas
 
Where is tejas? Lmao! I can tell you right now Malaysia airforce will not buy that stuff. They already have F-16 why go backwards in time with Tejas
When someone can't even get the basic facts correct, what value do their opinions hold? Malaysia has F-16s is it? Lol, talk about making a fool of yourself!
 
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