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F22 Raptor Killed !

Well, F22 is best out there. Just because MSNBC has some democratic grudge on defense companies does not undermine the quality of this plane.
The only seemingly legitimate 'technical' criticism that Maddow had was the 'vulnerable to rain' nonsense. I already debunked that elsewhere on this forum.

The cost of plane was expected to come down to 250million. But Pentagon reduced the number of orders hence the exorbitant cost.
You are talking SENSE...Now cut that out.

F35 is only a watered down plane sold to all the allies like F16s. I really doubt it will have any capacity to go head-to-head with F22.
The F-35 is still better than anything the Chinese or the Russians can come up with for at least the next 5 years, 10 if we are talking about deployment.

Let us see how PAKFA turns out! Then only can we truly compare this 5th gen plane.
The PUKE-FA at best will a contender to the F-35. An F-22 will smoke it before the PUKE pilot will even know he has been targeted.
 
Fart-22 bites the dust.:chilli:

Fart-35 is still not deployed yet.
 
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Russian Su's are far superior than US mere Fart series.

No, the RCS on Su's are larger than F35. F35 also has 60K ft service ceiling.

PAKFA has Mach 2 speed with 65K ft service ceiling. It is expected to be smaller sized plane ie. Weight/Thrust ratio will be way better than F35. The only lead F35 has it is available for airforce and navy ie. cheaper maintenance and parts.
 
They are Americans.
So what? Every country, every city or every household have something called a 'budget' where finite amount of money are allocated and the intent is to adhere to budget. You are talking as if money is taken away from current government health care program to pay for defense. Most Americans are in private health insurance anyway. You are bringing in a 'red herring' argument. Educate yourself by looking up what that mean.

Pakistan is not asking US for F-22... we are asking for UAV and UCAV. :)
Is the F-22 the point or is it the fact that Pakistan constantly look for better arms? Why does Pakistan want better weapons? Are there something wrong or inadequate with the current ones? Is Pakistan looking for an actual war or deterrence? So before you start criticizing US for constantly improving our defense, ask yourself the same question about Pakistan's defense.
 
The $2 Billion Steath Bomber can't Go Out in the Rain
By TIM WEINER
Published: Saturday, August 23, 1997

LinkedinDiggFacebookMixxMySpaceYahoo! BuzzPermalinkTwo years ago, the problem with the Air Force's B-2 Stealth bombers, which cost $2 billion apiece, was that their radar could not tell a rain cloud from a mountainside.

Now the problem is that the B-2 cannot go out in the rain.

The investigative arm of Congress reported this week that the B-2, the world's most expensive aircraft, deteriorates in rain, heat and humidity. It ''must be sheltered or exposed only to the most benign environments -- low humidity, no precipitation, moderate temperatures,'' said the report by the General Accounting Office.

The report said that the skin of the plane cannot handle the heat or the damp or the rain. That skin, made of thermoplastics and composites transparent to radar, is supposed to help give the bomber its much-touted radar-evading ''stealthy'' qualities.

Without that stealthiness, the plane is less than the unique technological achievement the Air Force has claimed it to be.

And with these problems the plane cannot be deployed overseas, where it would be needed in battle. The Air Force issued a statement today saying that, for now, it will cancel plans to station the bombers overseas. ''It would be difficult to operate the B-2 from a deployed location,'' the Air Force statement said.

The Northrop Grumman Corporation is building 21 of the planes at a cost of $44.7 billion. Some members of Congress want to keep the production lines open and build up to nine more of the planes, at a yet undetermined cost.

The B-2 was developed in the 1980's as a nuclear bomber. Its mission was to penetrate to the heart of the Soviet Union and drop missiles on Moscow. Its most striking technological feature was said to be its ability to evade detection by the Soviet Union's radars.

But no prototype was built, and the plane has experienced a series of technological setbacks during eight years of flight tests. It has never been used in combat.

The report by the General Accounting Office said that the Air Force is working on the problem with the B-2's sensitive skin, but that it is unlikely that the problem ''will ever be fully resolved.'' As a consequence, the plane requires climate-controlled shelters.

The bomber, which flies at sub-sonic speeds, like a normal commercial jet, is based at Whiteman Air Force Base in Missouri. That increases by many hours the time it would take for the plane to respond to a crisis overseas. The Air Force had intended to deploy it at bases outside the United States to reduce those flying times.

But no climate-controlled shelters for the B-2 exist abroad, preventing the plane from being stationed overseas.

In the report made public this week, the accounting office said that during a year of tests ending in March, the B-2 bombers were able to perform their missions only 26 percent of the time. The failures were in large part due to the fragility of the B-2's skin.

Rainwater and humidity damaged the plane's surface, sending the plane back to its hangars for repairs and a new coat of stealthy skin, which cures properly only in a climate-controlled shelter. Moisture also collected in the B-2's ducts and valves, causing malfunctions and requiring repairs.

Some of the plane's stealthiness sustained damage each time the aircraft flew, the report said.

The B-2 was developed in secret under the classified ''black budget'' of the Air Force. In 1981, the Air Force said it could build 132 of the planes for $22 billion. But after eight years it had spent that sum, and had only a single plane to show for it.

''The real problem with the B-2,'' Sam Nunn, the former chairman of the Senate Armed Services Committee, said in an interview, ''is that it was kept secret too long.''

After its unveiling in 1988, failed flight tests and the end of the cold war created problems for the B-2. Not the least was its cost. The plane's price tag roughly equals three times its weight in gold.

Then came the question of its performance. In 1995, the G.A.O. reported that ''the B-2 radar cannot distinguish rain from other obstacles'' and that its stealthiness was dubious.

Then came the question of its mission. The Air Force says the plane does not have to be used as a nuclear bomber; it can also carry conventional bombs for ordinary missions -- to blow up a bridge, for example. But during the first open Congressional debate over the bomber, in 1989, Senator William S. Cohen of Maine, now the Secretary of Defense, called that a ludicrous idea: like sending ''a Rolls-Royce down into a combat zone to pick up groceries.''

Though the Pentagon says it does not want or need any more B-2 bombers, the plane has always had strong defenders in Congress, including Floyd D. Spence, a South Carolina Republican and chairman of the House National Security Committee. During that first open debate in 1989, Mr. Spence said the plane's cost was irrelevant, given its power to defend the United States from its enemies.

''Cost?'' he asked. ''What price tag do you put on freedom?''

:smitten::pakistan::china:

The $2 Billion Stealth Bomber Can't Go Out in the Rain - The New York Times
 
Just as expected...More digging up of this 'rain' nonsense.
 
The $2 Billion Steath Bomber can't Go Out in the Rain
By TIM WEINER
Published: Saturday, August 23, 1997

<snipped>

It has never been used in combat.

The $2 Billion Stealth Bomber Can't Go Out in the Rain - The New York Times
http://www.cnn.com/US/9906/11/us.kosovo.04/
The B-2s -- which made 30-hour, round-trip, nonstop missions to Yugoslavia -- were a staple in NATO's bombing arsenal. Using its stealth technology, the plane can evade enemy radar and deliver bombs with precision.

Air Force officials estimated the bomber flew just 3 percent of all NATO sorties but accounted for 20 percent of all targets hit -- with little or no collateral damage.
There were 60 missions from Continental US (CONUS) over to Yugoslavia and back, and guess what, some missions WERE IN THE RAIN...!!!

:rofl:
 
Yeah right, prove this "Rain" Nonsence Wrong !!

:smitten::pakistan::china:
I have...Elsewhere here under basic radar principles. See if you are smart enough to find it and understand it.

http://commdocs.house.gov/committees/security/has181200.000/has181200_0f.htm
Mr. HUNTER. The subcommittee will come to order.

The subcommittee meets today to receive testimony on the performance of the B&#8211;2 bomber during the Kosovo air campaign. The B&#8211;2 saw its first combat during this conflict and, by all accounts I have seen, the Department of Defense and the Air Force have been very satisfied with its performance.

Let me say at this point that for years a number of us have believed very strongly that the combination of Stealth and precision munitions would add an important warfighting capability to our ability to project military power. I believe that that concept has been validated very strongly in this Kosovo campaign, but we are going to hear from the experts as to exactly what the results were.

We all know that the B&#8211;2 has been criticized from some quarters over the years and its critics have expressed many concerns about the cost, performance and maturity of this aircraft. On a light note, I understand that indeed the B&#8211;2 did fly in the rain and did perform very well in that weather.
What was that about 'rain'?
 
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Wait, it's not like any other aircraft designed for air-to-air combat can survive concentrated small arms fire. The Americans would send in an A-10 if they had to deal with that.
Or just fly high and just smart bomb the enemy to oblivion.
 
I have...Elsewhere here under basic radar principles. See if you are smart enough to find it and understand it.

Nobody said B2 coudn't operate in the rain! Its just deteriorates, so

its normal it will takes time to show the effect.

The investigative arm of Congress reported this week that the B-2, the world's most expensive aircraft, deteriorates in rain, heat and humidity. It ''must be sheltered or exposed only to the most benign environments -- low humidity, no precipitation, moderate temperatures,'' said the report by the General Accounting Office.

:smitten::pakistan::china:
 
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