F-7

[miroslav]

Originally posted by WebMaster@Dec 23 2005, 10:52 AM
In addition to jet, avionics, and missile its radar too that makes the difference,

[post=4744]Quoted post[/post]​

Radar comes into avionics. :laughing: No need to mention separately. :taunt:

and then the range of the missile, capability, etc.

Part of my point.

R-77RVV-AE [AA-12 ADDER]

Note: As per the annual United Nations (U.N.) conventional arms register, the Indian Government reported that it had purchased 30 R-77RVV-AE missiles in 1999 and 120 R-77RVV-AE missiles in 2000. These numbers suggest that the R-77RVV-AE is operational with the IAF, at a minimum with the upgraded MiG-21s and the Su-30s. In October 1998, a locally-upgraded MiG-29 test-fired a R-77RVV-AE air-to-air missile.

Work on the R-77 began in 1982 and was considered quite significant and secret since it represented Russia's first fully multi-purpose missile for both tactical and strategic aircraft for fire-and-forget employment against everything from hovering helicopters to high speed, low altitude aircraft. Gennadiy Sokolovski, General Designer of the Vympel Design Bureau, said that the R-77 missile can be used also against medium and long range air-to-air missiles such as the AIM-120 AMRAAM and AIM-54 Phoenix as well as SAMs such as the Patriot. It can also be used against cruise missiles and even precision-guided munitions (PGMs). First seen in 1992 at the MosAeroshow '92, the R-77RVV-AE was immediately nick-named Amraamski by Western journalists. The Russian-language version of the acronym for the weapon is RVV-AE and is also known as the Izdieliye-170. The missile can also be used from internal carriages where the control fins and surfaces will fold flat until it is catapulted clear of the aircraft for motor ignition.

The aerodynamics are novel, combining vestigial cruciform wings with tail control surfaces of a lattice configuration. Each surface consists of a metal frame containing a blade-like grid assembly which combines a greater control area, and thus lifting force, with reduced weight and size. The development for this control concept took three years of theoretical work and testing. Referred to by the Russians as gas dynamic declination devices, these surfaces require less powerful actuators than conventional fins, and have a lower RCS. The flow separation which occurs at high angles of attack enhances the it's turning ability, giving the missile a maximum turn rate of up to 150º per second. During the initial flight phase after launch, the missile is controlled by an inertial auto pilot with occasional data link updates from the launch aircraft's radar on changes in spatial position or G of the target. During the terminal phase, the missile shifts to an active-radar mode.

Over short distances, the missile will launch in an active mode. The host radar system maintains computed target information in case the target breaks the missile's lock-on. If the seeker is jammed, it switches automatically to a passive mode and homes on the source of jamming. Development trials have been completed, and the missile is now entering production for use on aircraft such as the Mig-29, Su-27 and Mig-31. Fired against high-altitude non-manoeuvring targets approaching head-on, the R-77RVV-AE has a range of 100 km, with the seeker locking on at around 20 km, and a maximum speed of Mach 4. At short range, it can engage targets manoeuvring at up to 12g.

There are other variants under development. One has an up-rated motor which is intended to boost range at high altitudes to as much as 160 km and is known as the R-77RVV-AE-PD. The 'PD' stands for Povyshenoy Dalnosti, which in Russian means Improved Range. This variant has been test-fired and uses a solid-fuel ramjet engine. Its range puts it in the long-range class and is equivalent to that of the AIM-54 Phoenix. In another version of the R-77, a terminal infra-red homing seeker is offered. The use of IR tracking in the terminal mode might be logical because at extended ranges the data link between the launch fighter and the missile might be interrupted, or the host radar may not detect jamming. It has a laser fuze and an exploding rod warhead that can destroy the variable sized targets from missiles and PGMs to bombers.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Lets see MKI's avionics and weapons capability.

Avionics: - The Su-30MKI features an all-weather, digital multi-mode, dual frequency, forward facing NIIP N-011M radar which has a 350 km search range and a 200 km tracking range. The radar can track and engage 20 targets and engage the 8 most threatening simultaneously. These targets can include cruise/ballistic missiles and even motionless helicopters. The radar is combined with a helmet mounted sight system, which allows the pilot to turn his head in a 90º field of view, lock on to a target and launch the TVC-capable R-73RDM2 missile. The radar's forward hemisphere is ±90º in azimuth and ±55º in elevation. The N-011M ensures a 20 metre resolution detection of large sea targets at a distance up to 400 km, and of small size ones - at a distance of 120 km.

In March 1998, the IAF signed a contract with the French electronics manufacturer, Sextant Avionique, to add six liquid colour displays, five MFD 55s and one MFD 66, for both the pilot and his WSO (Weapons System Officer), the Totem inertial guidance system with the GPS technology and the VEH 3000 holographic HUD. Officials from Sexatant have acknowledged that they have already validated the GPS system on Sukhoi aircraft. The six LCDs have a wide-screen and are shielded to make it readable even in bright sunlight. All the flight information is displayed on these four LCD displays which include one for piloting and navigation, a tactical situation indicator, and two for display systems information including operating modes and overall operation status. The aircraft is fitted with a satellite navigation system, which permits it to make flights in all weathers; day and night. The navigation complex comprises an inertial directional system and short- and long-range radio navigation systems. It also has a laser attitude and a heading reference system. An automatic flight control system makes all phases of its flight automatic, including the combat employment of its weapons.

Weapons: -

The aircraft is fitted with a 30mm GSh-301 single-barrel gun which has a firing rate of 1500 - 1800 rds/min or 25 - 30 rds/sec. The gun has a maximum effective range of 1200 - 1800 meters (3937 - 5906 feet) against air targets and 200 - 800 meters (656 - 2625 feet) against ground targets. Has 170 rounds capacity with 150 rounds loaded. Can carry a variety of ordnance on 12 hard points, which can be increased to 14 by using multi-payload racks. For air-superiority missions, the Su-30MKI can carry air-to-air missiles, like the close-combat R-60MK and R-73RDM2 (up to six), the medium-range R-27RE1/TE1 (up to six/two) and the long-range R-77RVV-AE (up to six).

MiG-29

Avionics: Has a coherent, multimode pulse Doppler look-down/shoot-down engagement radar which has search and tracking capabilities. Has a HUD (head-up display) and helmet mounted target designation system, which is tied in with a laser range finder and an infra-red search & track. The IRST ball is mounted on a three-axis gimballed turret protruding above the nose in front of the cockpit.

The radar is supported by an optical-electronic navigation-attack system, which comprises a sighting system, a navigation system, a digital computer, a weapons control system, and a data presentation system with a HUD. The helmet mounted sight & target designator is available for use with the R-60MK and the R-73RDM2 close-combat missiles.

The navigation system includes a radio compass, a radar altimeter, a marker beacon receiver, and a short-range navigation and instrument landing system. The ground-air & air-ground data link for target indication from land-based radars, is joined by a communications radio. The aircraft also has an IFF transponder & interrogator.

Armament: Fitted with a 30mm GSh-30 gun with 170 rounds capacity and 150 rounds loaded. The gun has a maximum effective range of 1200 to 1800 meters against air targets and 200 to 800 meters against ground targets. It has a maximum firing rate of 25 to 30 rounds per second. IAF MiG-29s can be armed with a range of Russian air-to-air missiles, like the close-combat R-60MK and R-73RDM2, the medium-range R-27RE1/TE1 and the long-range R-77RVV-AE. French air-to-air missiles such as the Super 530D and Magic-II can also be carried.

Morale of the story: - The F-7PG/Mirage-III/V Rose is shot down even before it could see/detect anyone of them.

Miro

 

[Zeeshan S.]

Originally posted by Owais@Dec 23 2005, 07:36 AM
I searched many sources and found that SD10 is as capable as AIM120C. both have same Specifications.
Data for AIM-120A/B:

Length 3.66 m (12 ft)
Wingspan 53.3 cm (21 in)
AIM-120C: 44.7 cm (17.6 in)
Finspan 63.5 cm (25 in)
AIM-120C: 44.7 cm (17.6 in)
Diameter 17.8 cm (7 in)
Weight 157 kg (345 lb)
Speed Mach 4
Range 50-70 km (30-45 miles)
Propulsion Hercules/Aerojet solid-fueled rocket
Warhead 23 kg (50 lb) WDU-33/B blast-fragmentation
AIM-120C-5: WDU-41/B blast-fragmentation

http://www.designation-systems.net/dusrm/m-120.html
Specifications of SD10

Length: 3.85 m
Body diameter: 203 mm
Wing span: n/k
Launch weight: 180 kg
Warhead: HE fragmentation
Fuze: Active proximity fuse
Guidance: Inertial mid-course and /or datalink updates, with active radar terminal homing
Propulsion: Solid dual-thrust rocket motor
Range: 70 km (in a head on engagement)

http://www.centurychina.com/cgi-bin/anyboa...230&v=2&gV=1&p=

[post=4750]Quoted post[/post]​

Mate,

SD-10 is a copy of Russian/American BVR. It is much heavy! much bigger, and not much capable as american weaponry. Although you might find that they are pretty close, but still there is a difference to see in actual combat.

BTW: miro good article there!

 

[Tiger Shark]

With new wings and updated avionics, the J-7 got its new lease in life. With radar absorbent paint, helmet targeting and large angle off boresight missiles, a J-7E or J-7MG is still a deadly opponent to any modern fighter. Add new engine developments that promise even greater power, such as the 7500kg thrust WP14 engine, and this little fighter can achieve thrust to weight ratios unlike that of an F16.

Despite the modernization, the J-7 has inherent flaws. The range is short for one, and so is the payload. The nose is too small to accommodate a longer range radar, which can stifle the pilot's situational awareness and forces him to rely more on GCI and AWACs. It will not accommodate larger and more powerful engines. There is only so much that the little airframe can take.

The radar limitations could be addressed with the alteration of the J-7 nose to something like the F7MF proposal. Such as a drastic change would however require more development and testing, which seems odd in relation to the FC-1 program. In fact, any activity of such has to be financed internally by CAC, as neither CATIC nor the PLAAF would fund this.

Pakistan has shown that with their F-7PG version, the J-7 airframe and nose could take a BVR radar, even of a modest range. While modest, the Grifo 7M still possess better scan range than the Super Skyranger radar of the F-7MG and the JL-7A radar of the J-7E.

Even if the Grifo will not be fitted on the PLAAF's J-7s, it does show it's possible to use BVR radar with electronic improvements, maybe on the JL-7, or through a similar radar such as Phazotron's Kopyo or Moskit. With such, a BVR missile is still possible, even though one has t to fire the missile within less of its maximum range.

There is plenty of doubts about continuing to evolve a nearly fifty year old air frame design with proposals such as the F-7MF. Radar and engine changes, however, would be far less drastic and still be cost effective in closing the gap. A reasonable cost effective upgrade to the J-7E or as a future J-7 variant would be to have BVR radar of the Grifo 7 class, the WP14 engine, an HMCS with wide angle off boresight IR AAMs such as the PL-9c.

The fact that J-7s are made by Chengdu means that J-7s are diversionary to the J-10's production. Once the J-10 is fully approved, we can expect Chengdu Aircraft Corporation to fully concentrate its resources to J-10 production. In the meantime, until the J-10 has commenced production, newer J-7s with upgraded radars and engines should be made to offset attrition by retired aircraft.

Advantage:

1. Great bang for the back
2. Proven commodity
3. Still a dangerous opponent with latest engine, avionics, and missile upgrades.

Regards

HappyBirthdayToYou :reading:

 

[Tiger Shark]

If it is just pure close range ACM, the F7-MG would have big advantage over the -21-93 and the MiG-23. In the close range area, it is still a deadly opponent even against the Mirage 2000, MiG-29 and even the SU-30, when using the right tactics. This is probably from the experience where in the Chinese were using the Flankers like a "Blue Flag" aggressor squadron to represent Western style air forces and pit them against the J-7E's (same plane as F7MG, but not exported and does not have the same niceties in some areas.) Experience shows that the J7Es could hold their own, and could kick a surprise, especially if you're unwary and underestimated the thing. For its ability to hold its own, the PLAAF continues to put the plane in limited production, replacing the old and unmaintainable J6s.

Don't let that old MiG look fool you. If some of the data I've seen is true, the F7MG is comparable to an early F-16 in some regimes. With that new wing, the plane has a maximum turn rate of about 22 or 25 degrees per second, compared to the 11 degrees of a J7D/MiG-21MF (a MiG-21bis will only be slightly better than 11 degrees/sec.) In a typical combat load, the F7MG should have a power to weight ratio of about .97. That's better than the Grippen's or the Mirage 2000-5 (about .85). Admittedly, even the FC-1 will have a hard time getting a .97 thrust to combat weight ration, and this is the reason why Chengdu is offering the F7MF as an alternative---the new nose would give the F7 the capability for long range BVR combat.

As a new airframe, the F7MG has its advantages over the old airframes and engines that are still in the MiG-21-93. These include safety and greater mission availability.

It has no BVR, but the expected range of these F7MG's radars is about 50km and over, and should have terrain avoidance/following. Certainly the J7E has terrain avoidance/following and this would help in ambushing the enemy. By keeping low, this cuts down detection range, in most cases, more than a half. If the opponent is something like a -21-93 or MiG-23, coming low means you can only be detected around 30 to 40km of the scanning aircraft, and the rate of closure means you're going to merge into close combat. Given the very mountainous asian terrain, BVR isn't going to work like they do in paper. ECM jamming is also going to cut into the ranges too.

Given these conditions, I won't waste my time talking about BVR or the R-77. Admittedly, the F7MG isn't going to work well on offensive strikes, but as a defensive ambusher making use of the terrain to nullify the BVR advantage of the enemy. Not to mention the fact that India does not have the R-77 yet (there is no evidence or report of its delivery, unless its delivery is totally classified). Which is not much of a problem anyway, since the Mirage 2000s have the Mica, which is another active guided missile. Other than the Mica, the primary BVR weapon would be the R27 Alamo. But again, when played right, you could nullify BVR advantages in combat, and BVR is always a crap shot anyway, never a sure thing. There will always be ECM, chaff, ground clutter, and the target plane doing evasive maneuvers. Especially when you're low in the ground (or in mountainous terrain), BVR missiles can be affected by ground clutter.

Much more potent for the IAF would be the R73 missile. Once locked on, an small IR missile is much harder to evade than any BVR missile, and most especially, if the missile is the R73. Equipped on its aircraft, including the MiG-21-93, this could be more potent than the PL5E, AIM9Ls and PL8 (Python 3 copy) of the F7MG, even if the PL8 is slaved to a helmet sight.

Regards

Tiger

 

[Tiger Shark]

Atlast I am finishing My Topic with these following points


A)If it is just pure close range ACM, the F7-MG
would have big advantage over the -21-93
Even with the -93 having HMS, R60/23, HOTAS, kyopo? etc...
etc... I really dont think so.

B)Yes I do think so. The F7MG has a very modern cockpit, including color MFD and HOTAS. Grifo M is probably the better of the Kopyo radar with a maximum search range of 55km and in its multimode. It is a Western radar to start with. PL5E missiles is the equal or better of the AIM9L with more than 40 degrees off boresight, and the PL8 is based on the Python 3, one of the deadlies and most proven AAMs in the world.

C)it is still a deadly opponent even against the
Mirage 2000, MiG-29 and even the SU-30

D)Because in a strike role you will come down from altitude anyway, and those F7MGs will always be coming from down low. Unless of course, you have to drop your bombs quite high.

E)In maneuverability both F16 and F7MG has around 22 degrees/sec in maximum turn rate. The F-16 has a weight thrust ratio of 1.0; the F7MG is about .97.

F)The climb rate of teh F7MG is around 195m/sec, same as an F-14.

G)Exactly my point, the F7PG is unlikely to meet the
MiG21-93 unless it goes over Indian territory. Over
Pakistan, it is more likely to meet with the
M2K/MiG29/Su30/Jag combo. Terrain is not going to play a
very major role to help the F7. Also remember the strikers
too will be using the terrain. It is not the exclusive
preserve of the F7! So if the terrain can be a help to the
F7 it can also be of equal help to the strikers.

H)The problem of the strikers is that they will be carrying a heavy bomb load. The F7 isn't.

I)When you're flying low over hostile territory, the guys on the ground can nail you with a shoulder fired AAM. That's not a problem of the F7 over friendly ground.

J)It's not going to reach the launch point in the first place. With a bomb load, it can be intercepted. If you got escorts well, you don't have the element of surprise since the escorts help give your position away, and the target is ready with SAMs or has even moved away. You might find a whole wing of defenders ready.

Thanks for your participation in this Topic

Regards


Tiger

 

[miroslav]

Ya ya,

F-7 is deadly against MiG-29/Mirage-2000 and Flanker.

BTW what is the concept of your right tactics???

Miro