F-35? We Want The LCA Navy: Indian Navy Chief

[Black Widow]

i will try to summarize my view here:
1. AMCA is still on drawing board so don't have high expectations from it now

2. Naval PAKFA will can be easily inducted in good no. as both India n Russia r planning to go bigger carriers(>60000 tonnes) in future.

3. Its not just a no. game PAKFA is a 5th gen fighter it can change the whole game even if deployed in lesser no. in comparision to Mig29 or NLCA

4. With PAKFA prototypes already flying n all the experience that of Russkis n HAL(NLCA) have i don't think Naval PAKFA would be something to expensive that we can't afford n besides it would give us a chance to be part of the design process of a Naval 5th gen fighter which was largely missed during PAKFA.

5. I don't see AMCA flying in sky anytime before 2025 that too if everything goes as planned, so i think it would be better if we exclude if from this discussion.

6. My suggestion was in response to suggestions of inducting F35

Agree to your points, but there are something we must take into consideration.

1. Role of Naval planes: Till date it is Ground attack and EW role.
2. N-FGFA will not give any additional expertise which we can't gather from FGFA.
3. Su33K failed coz there was no order, per unit cost was higher .
4. Russia operate battle cruiser not Carrier, there carrier too are configured as battleship.

Trust me N-FGFA will not come into picture. It will die like Naval-F22 .

 

[sancho]

@sancho
why don't anybody thing about Naval PAKFA rather than going for F-35 for 5th Gen fighters???

I mean we r already partner in that program n i have heard that PAKFA doesn't need much space to take off besides IAC2 doesn't seem to be coming before 2022 by that time a naval version of PAKFA can easily be made...

N-FGFA is an option and the Russians even offered us to take over the navalising, but IN wants a CATOBAR carrier, which requires more structural changes for it's fighters. Navalising FGFA for catapult take offs could be complicated and expensive. The space on deck is not the problem, since the Russians would want folding wings as well, but the length in the hangar will obviously be more than of an AMCA, which results into less aircrafts that can be carried.
So the best option would stilla be developing an AMCA version for the navy and CATOBAR carriers in first place and instead of wasting time and money on N-LCA, IN should push MoD to get the lead in AMCA program!

I am Talking about The Warship development Capability of Navy .

Even here, we are still exporting much, Russian Frigats, Italian Tankers, S. Korean Mine Sweapers and now foreign LDP and SSKs.

I thought Dhruv Could not be modified to aptly suit IN requirement like Dhruv had hingeless rotor which do not support self folding rotor,a compulsory need for IN.

Folding rotors were an issue, but HAL has offered a modified versions too, but IN rejected and that although most of INs older vessels don't even have hangars. Now we end up with a light and medium foreign helicopter and both with ASW capability.

 

[surya kiran]

I have a slightly different take on this. I think, we should start preparing over the next 20 years for a drone carrier. The carrier operates around 20-30 naval Auras. This will provide the offensive arm. It will also operate a few ASW choppers and something akin to the Growler on an Indian plane. Ofcourse, this will be a smaller ship than the regular aircraft carrier and will operate as part of an existing CBG increasing its ground strike capability or alone as part of a smaller strike cbg.

 

[Black Widow]

N-FGFA is an option and the Russians even offered us to take over the navalising, but IN wants a CATOBAR carrier, which requires more structural changes for it's fighters. Navalising FGFA for catapult take offs could be complicated and expensive. The space on deck is not the problem, since the Russians would want folding wings as well, but the length in the hangar will obviously be more than of an AMCA, which results into less aircrafts that can be carried.
So the best option would stilla be developing an AMCA version for the navy and CATOBAR carriers in first place and instead of wasting time and money on N-LCA, IN should push MoD to get the lead in AMCA program!

Completely Agree with you... Adding some points

The N-LCA will give technical know how of

1. Arrested recovery (even Catobar use the similar tech for landing)
2. enhance Fuselage
3. Pilot View while landing (seating position)

I am sure that , NAVY will eager to join AMCA and they will push it harder to provide N-AMCA almost simultaniously ...

 

[Yogi]

Agree to your points, but there are something we must take into consideration.

1. Role of Naval planes: Till date it is Ground attack and EW role.
2. N-FGFA will not give any additional expertise which we can't gather from FGFA.
3. Su33K failed coz there was no order, per unit cost was higher .
4. Russia operate battle cruiser not Carrier, there carrier too are configured as battleship.

Trust me N-FGFA will not come into picture. It will die like Naval-F22 .

Just some minor disagreements:

1. SU33 died bcoz India opted for Mig29K due to small size of Viki n IAC1 n Russian orders very not enough to make it viable else it was a good plane

2. I was taking about future Russian carriers which won't be battle cruisers.

3. Naval fighter may have been used for Ground attack role but that does not mean that they can't be used for A2A role.

 

[Yogi]

@sancho
Considering the delays we generally face don't u think Naval PAKFA is still a safer bet as AMCA is still fly on drawing board n we all know HAL n its expertise in Aircraft manufacturing...

However, i agree that IN should focuss more on AMCA n Mig 29k then NLCA.

 

[sancho]

Completely Agree with you... Adding some points

The N-LCA will give technical know how of

1. Arrested recovery (even Catobar use the similar tech for landing)
2. enhance Fuselage
3. Pilot View while landing (seating position)

And for all this, the current N-LCA MK1 tech demonstrator would be enough, no need to develop a fully fledged fighter version.

 

[Black Widow]

Just some minor disagreements:

1. SU33 died bcoz India opted for Mig29K due to small size of Viki n IAC1 n Russian orders very not enough to make it viable else it was a good plane

2. I was taking about future Russian carriers which won't be battle cruisers.

3. Naval fighter may have been used for Ground attack role but that does not mean that they can't be used for A2A role.

Sweets in your mouth.. May ur prediction come true. If Russia will build ACC by 2027 and India will have 2 60,000 tonn carrier than N-FGFA will be a reality. 4 carrier will need at least 200 birds and 100 at naval base (reserved). 300 is good number for operational economics..

 

[sancho]

@sancho
Considering the delays we generally face don't u think Naval PAKFA is still a safer bet as AMCA is still fly on drawing board n we all know HAL n its expertise in Aircraft manufacturing...

However, i agree that IN should focuss more on AMCA n Mig 29k then NLCA.

Delays are not predictable, but developing a fighter from the start for catapult take offs is better than trying to change anything later see Rafale and Sea Typhoon. Also we now would have the chance to make the required partnerships with foreign partners, to counter delays from the start too (Kaveri / Snecma co-development, combining Rafale deal with a Dassault consultancy in developing a naval AMCA for example).

 

[Black Widow]

And for all this, the current N-LCA MK1 tech demonstrator would be enough, no need to develop a fully fledged fighter version.

I beg to differ slightly, If N-LCA will become operational, it will boost Moral of Engineers. If not the cynic and Dalals will eat up the project. our politicians are well known for there evil plan to sabotage homegrown products.


If we stop N-LCA at very early stage, They will sabotage it and will buy F35.. (for huge kick back and Green card for there family). So I strongly in favour of Production and operation of N-LCA.

When AMCA will be launched , Some of N-LCA engineer will be send to assist for N-AMCA model.

 

[sancho]

I beg to differ slightly, If N-LCA will become operational, it will boost Moral of Engineers. If not the cynic and Dalals will eat up the project. our politicians are well known for there evil plan to sabotage homegrown products.


If we stop N-LCA at very early stage, They will sabotage it and will buy F35.. (for huge kick back and Green card for there family). So I strongly in favour of Production and operation of N-LCA.

When AMCA will be launched , Some of N-LCA engineer will be send to assist for N-AMCA model.

So you prefer to pay hundreds of millions just to boost the moral? There is no operational advantage of having N-LCA in our carriers, with more capable Migs and for very limited roles. It is way more beneficiary for IN and Indian security, to keep N-LCA as a tech demo version at low costs and to get an industrial base of naval fighter design and take that experience to the next level, by directly going to develop a naval AMCA for IAC 2.
Developing a fully fledged N-LCA only increases the costs and delays the AMCA development, no benefits at all!

 

[Black Widow]

So you prefer to pay hundreds of millions just to boost the moral? There is no operational advantage of having N-LCA in our carriers, with more capable Migs and for very limited roles. It is way more beneficiary for IN and Indian security, to keep N-LCA as a tech demo version at low costs and to get an industrial base of naval fighter design and take that experience to the next level, by directly going to develop a naval AMCA for IAC 2.
Developing a fully fledged N-LCA only increases the costs and delays the AMCA development, no benefits at all!

I think you are right....

 

[arp2041]

@sancho can u explain as to how there will be no operational advantage of having N-LCA?? Don't u think that atleast they will be more capable than Harriers which the IN currently operates??

 

[sancho]

I think you are right....

Maybe I am, maybe I am not but the problem is, that we Indians tend to see these indigenous developments with way too much pride and with less rational thinking. Look at Europe for example, they just made the first flight of their nEUROn stealth UCAV tech demonstrator, which would have been a major celebration in India and would directly resulted in developing a production version and 100s of orders.
But here it hardly makes news, although it once again shows how capable European defence industry is, especially since they have several such tech demo projects going on and although it's not clear if they ever will put it in serial production.
We need such a rational view as well, because that benefits our project planings and to distinguish which project is good and which is not, or which project is necessary for the long term. We are still on the hunt to prove, that we can develop arms and techs in India, just like other countries, but we don't have to prove them anything, our focus must be, to get the most capable techs for our forces to protect India. That often will be foreign stuff today, but in the long run and with co-developments, we will increase the indigenous content.

I prefer a cost-effective not delayed and most importantly capable weapon system much more, over an delayed, costly and low capable indigenous weapon system!!!

 

[sancho]

@sancho can u explain as to how there will be no operational advantage of having N-LCA?? Don't u think that atleast they will be more capable than Harriers which the IN currently operates??

Of course they will be more capable than the Harriers, but that can't be the aim if we spend several 100 millions in a fighter project. The fact is, that it will have very limited weapon stations to carry fueltanks and weapons, the payload will be limited because of the ski-jump take off and all this, when we have a Mig, that don't offer these disadvantages. So what's the use? We could have bought some more Migs for the operational roles, used N-LCA MK1 tech demo program for the industry and should have integrated an Indian AESA radar, Indian cockpit design and avionics for the Mig 29Ks too (since we are the main operator of the Migs anyway) and might still end up with similar costs as developing a full fledged N-LCA and buying it in numbers.

Btw, did anybody thought about if using Kaveri K9 in Mig 29K would have been possible and useful, instead of RD 33MK? The AB thrust could be a problem, but just consider an Mig 29K with LCA MK2 radar, avionics and if possibly even an Indian engine. Wouldn't that be the better option that developing N-LCA?