F-35 EOSDAS

[saiko]

The F-35s substantial but somewhat less-than-next-gen stealth capability will keep it invisible for a much longer time, giving it an immense advantage (just one second's advantage makes all the difference in a battle, ask any pilot). Also, the ECM suits being installed in F-35s and F-22s are unfathomably modern. They will be able incapacitate the air defence systems adequately for the bombers to blow them to pieces. But, I agree, air defence is the biggest threat facing an airplane in hostile territory, and that air defences will catch up to the new gen aircrafts much sooner than previous gen aircrafts.

I disagree mainly because the shaping of the F-35 makes clear its stealth is limited. The original design was much stealthier, but they made many compromises to fulfill the other requirements.

Low frequency radar will detect it, although probably won't be able to provide enough resolution to fire a missile at it (though that is being worked on at the moment). However everyone will know its there.

Only the front and rear aspect of the F-35 offer useful stealth against high-frequency engagement radars, so if it gets painted on either of its flanks it will be targettable by radar. The only real question will be how effective its ECM package is. That information is classified and as far as I know nobody really has any idea at this point.

Many tradeoff studies were done by the USAF before they decided not to upgrade existing aircraft to do the jobs the F-22 and F-35 will. Primarily, it was feared that current gen planes would be matched/surpassed by Russian technology by the end of the 20th centure (which they did with the Su-27), compromising their qualitative edge over the Soviets/Russians. There were numerous other reasons as well for not upgrading their current fleet and choosing to go for new technologies. I suggest you rush to your local library and read about the Joint Strike Fighter and Advanced Tactical Fighter programs (no insult intended here), there are some very good books on them.

I have read quite a bit about the programmes, but what matters today is what the programme evolved to. I'm not particularly happy that Canada will be buying the JSF, but we are really only operating against Russian bombers as far as forseeable air defence threats go so in the end it's not a huge deal. Still though, we would be better off with something like the Gripen which offers substantial upgrades to our CF-18s while having a very low total cost of ownership.

I argued the same thing in my previous post. The program may have become slightly disappointing, but that does not make the plane any less incredible. What people, especially non-engineers, need to understand is that, even though the article depends heavily on the program, a fault in the program does not equal a fault in the article of engineering.

No this is true. But I sort of take issue with both. At least if the price was closer to the original price I wouldn't feel like Canada is being ripped off for being a part of the JSF program.

No. 4 next-gen AMRAAMS with substantial stealth means 4 aircrafts shot down before the F-35 is even visible on the radar. And if, somehow, the F-35s position is known, it is still capable of shooting down or disabling any aircraft because it offers superior avionics and weapons integration, great radar technology, unparalleled ECM suits etc. In short, if you're caught in a fight between an F-35 and another aircraft, you better be in the F-35. It is a pilots dream fighter. And unbelievably, despite all of this, it is a multi-role aircraft, not an air superiority fighter.

Well the newer generations of the AMRAAM have not be used operationally, but the older generations have. They were used against medium-tech (at best) opponents and its PK is something like 50% against them. The stated PK was 90%. I have never seen an AAM live up to manufacturer stated PK and the AMRAAM is no exception.

ECM and ECCM capability typically leapfrogs one another, so it's hard to say what will happen, but history does not support the idea that one shot will equal one kill in BVR.

F-22's purpose is not ground attack. It is an air dominance fighter (though it can most assuredly perform multi-role functions). What you are suggesting will be done by the F-35, and done well.

I understand that the F-22 is intended as an air superiority fighter. But I guarantee the F-22 will be used in a SEAD role against a modern IADS because the JSF can't do it much better than 4th gen fighters. The B2 and F-22 are the only true stealth aircraft the US will have.

Finally, when the F-16 first came out, it had many critics. Its too small, too weak, has too few capabilites, they said. It is unnecessarily hi-tech (FBW, HUD etc) and therefore, unnecessarily expensive, they said. But, today only a fool will doubt the F-16s potential one tiny bit. The F-35 will establish a similar legacy in the next generation.

That remains to be seen. But the F-16 exceeding expectations does not mean the JSF will. For every F-16 I can give you a dozen aircraft designs that utterly failed to meet expectations.

 

[Zob]

well i think nothing beets this plane....i recommend every1 listen 2 the pilot who says why he prefers the Euro fighter above all other fighters.

 

[hj786]

Many of Typhoon's features can be added to existing aeroplanes like F-16, J-10, even JF-17. Better engines, stronger airframe, more weapons load, helmet mounted sight, etc.

But what F-22 and F-35 have cannot. That is why even Typhoon cannot match their most important capability - stealth.

 

[PAFAce]

well i think nothing beets this plane....i recommend every1 listen 2 the pilot who says why he prefers the Euro fighter above all other fighters.

He's a British Eurofighter test pilot from the RAF being interviewed for a short documentary on the Eurofighter, ofcourse he will say that. You don't need to be a rocket scientist to figure that out.

Saiko:
I have already countered most of your arguments in my previous post and other posts on this forum. Other members, like hj786, have also provided many counter arguments to everything you have said. I do not want to repeat all of that. All I will say is this, for 5 years they did tradeoff studies to determine whether F-16s, F-18s, A-10s and F-15s could be upgraded to do all the things they wanted the JSF to achieve, and eventually they decided it was either not possible, not feasible or just too much of a risk. Proposals were made by all aerospace companies of the time (General Dynamics, Lockheed, Northrop, Rockwell, etc.) for alternatives to the JSF, and they were all rejected. I just find it amazing that people can just reject the finidings and studies of so many professional engineers, who know far more than we do about defence aviation, and suggest that the F-35 is either unnecessary or sub-par.

 

[vizier]

For sead role F35 will most probably use non stealth disposable uavs to stimulate aa guns, radars and missiles to detect them by eosdas and then strike them.

However near future anti air radars will be narrow beam aesas and it would be difficult to intercept and designate them like the f35 radar itself. Also radar guided aa guns firing darts,ammo under ir smoke screen would hide from flir or eosdas. It won't be a solution for stealth fighter threat but it would filter out the usage of non-stealth fighters and uavs.

 

[mean_bird]

Honestly speaking, for some reasons I am not a very big fan of the F-35. To me it seems like an attempt to create a Eurofighter / rafale for the US with the 5th gen and stealth logo to feel better and have a slight advantage. (but thats just my opinion)

It would be interesting to see these fighters go heah-to-head with each other (though unlikely).

 

[mean_bird]

Cyberspies hack into U.S. fighter project: report

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - Computer spies have repeatedly breached the Pentagon's costliest weapons program, the $300 billion Joint Strike Fighter project, The Wall Street Journal reported on Tuesday.

The newspaper quoted current and former government officials familiar with the matter as saying the intruders were able to copy and siphon data related to design and electronics systems, making it potentially easier to defend against the plane.

The spies could not access the most sensitive material, which is kept on computers that are not connected to the Internet, the paper added.

Citing people briefed on the matter, it said the intruders entered through vulnerabilities in the networks of two or three of the contractors involved in building the fighter jet.

Lockheed Martin Corp is the lead contractor. Northrop Grumman Corp and BAE Systems PLC also have major roles in the project. Lockheed Martin and BAE declined comment and Northrop referred questions to Lockheed, the paper said.

The Journal said Pentagon officials declined to comment directly on the matter, but the paper said the Air Force had begun an investigation.

The identity of the attackers and the amount of damage to the project could not be established, the paper said.

The Journal quoted former U.S. officials as saying the attacks seemed to have originated in China, although it noted it was difficult to determine the origin because of the ease of hiding identities online.

The Chinese Embassy said China "opposes and forbids all forms of cyber crimes," the Journal said.

The officials added there had also been breaches of the U.S. Air Force's air traffic control system in recent months.


Mods/Admin: Can we change the thread title to make it a general F-35 thread?

 

[saiko]

Yeah saw that. Nothing crucial was compromised as crucial data is not available on servers connected/exposed to the outside world.

Just another embarassment in the long line of embarassments for the JSF. The US Government Accounting Office put the smack down on Lockheed Martin over the BAMS project - when they sued over Northrop Grumman's win of the contract - the GAO basically told Lockheed Martin they're a joke being wholly unable to control project costs or even deliver their products to spec in spite of massive cost overruns - and they were primarily referring to the JSF and F-22 programs.

With the Russians getting into the AESA game and the CAPTOR-AESA having some fairly amibitious end-product specs I wouldn't be surprised if the much-delayed JSF is detectable head-on from fighter-based AESA radar at significant BVR ranges.

If that happens the JSF program would be an unmitigated disaster.

 

[sms]

Pentagon has claimed that the several Tera bites of data related to F35 program stolen from their computers by hackers from China (TBC). Seems like China have a insight of stealth technology. Don't get surprised if China launch a fighter looking similar to F35 in near future.

Full story...

Hackers Crack Pentagon F-35 Data: Report

WASHINGTON - Computer spies have hacked into the Pentagon's most costly weapons program, The Wall Street Journal reported April 21, raising the prospect of adversaries gaining access to top-secret security data.

Citing current and former government officials, The Journal said cyber-intruders were able to copy several terabytes of data on the $300 billion Joint Strike Fighter project, which may make it easier to defend against the aircraft, also known as the F-35 Lightning II.

A terabyte is 1,000 gigabytes.

The officials said similar breaches were recorded at the U.S. Air Force's air traffic-control system in recent months, while the Journal had earlier reported that spies hacked into computers used to manage the U.S. electrical distribution system and other infrastructure.

The latest attacks signal an escalation in attempts by intruders to gain access to vital U.S. security data during the past six months - or at least U.S. awareness of such attacks, a former official said.

"There's never been anything like it," the former official was quoted as saying, adding that other military agencies as well as private contracting companies have been affected.

"It's everything that keeps this country going," he added.

It was not immediately clear how severe the breach was or exactly who the hackers were, but the most sensitive data on the fighter project is reportedly kept on secure computers not connected to the Internet.

The newspaper cited unnamed former U.S. officials saying the attack appeared to have originated in China.

A recent Pentagon report stated that China's military had made "steady progress" in developing techniques for improved online warfare, as part of an effort to compensate for an underdeveloped military, The Journal said.

Hackers Crack Pentagon F-35 Data: Report - Defense News

 

[sms]

F35 data theft ..report from other source...

Reports of Cyberthefts From F-35 Program

The F-35 stealth fighter family is the largest defense program in the world, with estimated total costs of about $300 billion for development and for all planned aircraft. That program size, the number of countries participating, and the level of length of their commitment to a single aircraft type also makes it one of the world’s most important future weapons. The F-35 designs’ future success or failure on the battlefield are consequential enough that failure could alter regional, and even global, balances of power.

In May 2008, POGO obtained a Department of Defense (DoD) Inspector General (IG) report suggesting that “advanced aviation and weapons technology for the JSF program may have been compromised by unauthorized access at facilities and in computers at BAE Systems…”, and documenting lack of cooperation with the Defense Security Service from BAE. Now a Wall Street Journal report, filed in the wake of its revelations that crackers have infiltrated the USA’s power grid and left behind malicious software, reveals thefts from the F-35 program as well…

In October 2008, the DoD Inspector General removed its report about BAE, on the grounds that they lacked “sufficient appropriate evidence” that advanced technology and classified information may have been compromised. Now, a Wall Street Journal report maintains that:

“Computer spies have broken into the Pentagon’s $300 billion Joint Strike Fighter project…. intruders were able to copy and siphon off several terabytes of data related to design and electronics systems…. Six current and former officials familiar with the matter confirmed that the fighter program had been repeatedly broken into. The Air Force has launched an investigation.

....The intruders compromised the system responsible for diagnosing a plane’s maintenance problems during flight…. [the] plane’s most vital systems—such as flight controls and sensors—are physically isolated from the publicly accessible Internet…. intruders entered through vulnerabilities in the networks of two or three contractors…”

BAE Systems is one of the 3 biggest contractors in the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter program, alongside Northrop Grumman and below program lead Lockheed Martin. Within the information accessible from the Internet, the Wall Street Journal adds that the crackers:

...inserted technology that encrypts the data as it’s being stolen; as a result, investigators can’t tell exactly what data has been taken…. ”Investigators traced the penetrations back with a “high level of certainty” to known Chinese Internet protocol, or IP, addresses and digital fingerprints that had been used for attacks in the past, said a person briefed on the matter.”

The Pentagon initially said that they were “not aware of any specific concerns” regarding compromised information, then said that it would not comment on “alleged or actual cyber infiltrations, potential impacts to DoD operations, or any possible investigations,” in order to deny outsiders information about what it knew. A policy of that kind can certainly be used for denial and obfuscation. On the other hand, telling hostile outsiders about the breaches you’re aware of can suggest which of their breaches you may not be aware of, providing enemies with important and potentially damaging information.

Lockheed Martin is quoted by Reuters as saying that “We actually believe the Wall Street Journal was incorrect in its representation of successful cyber attacks on the F-35 program.” CFO Bruce Tanner added on a subsequent conference call that “to our knowledge there’s never been any classified information breach.”

Of course, it’s quite possible for the Wall Street Journal and Lockheed Martin’s CFO to both be correct. As the recent P2P security breach involving VH-60 Presidential Helicopters demonstrated, it’s quite possible to have a security breach that exposes files to hostile individuals or regimes, but none of it is classified information in the strct sense of the term.

The gathering evidence of genuine security threats involving classified files and critical national infrastructure, however, is likely to raise the profile of programs like the USA’s government-wide cybersecurity initiative.

Reports of Cyberthefts From F-35 Program