F-22P a bad decision by PN?

[Myth_buster_1]

Lets disscus the cons of this light frigate.

F-22P is a very light frigate which will be a bait for IN new frigates... unless PN intention is to use them for costal defence then i can understand but if they plan to achive deep strike then i am sorry to say but PN was not thinking...

IMO a bad move.... should have gone for latest corvettes..

 

[Zulfiqar]

They are good value for money. We secured a loan from chinese banks for them. They come with no strings attached and they are new.

What corvettes do you have in mind?

We should have gone for bigger Chinese ships but as they say beggars can't be choosers. Most of our chinese procurements are on credit.

Any western option would have been quite expensive.

 

[Myth_buster_1]

They are good value for money. We secured a loan from chinese banks for them.

please elaborate? OHP class frigate has better weapon package and costs only 65 million dollars..

They come with no strings attached and they are new.

Please dont generlize the term "strings attached"... pakistan military still operates more western equipments and the new F-16 has no strings attached...
F-22P is a upgraded Type-053 design which itself is a late 1970s design.

What corvettes do you have in mind?

given the 750 million dollars budget in mind..... their are quite a few modern corvette available for pakistan such as the gowind series...

We should have gone for bigger Chinese ships but as they say beggars can't be choosers. Most of our chinese procurements are on credit.

Any western option would have been quite expensive.

sorry dude but i am starting to hate this blind patriotism with chinese.. PN is currently negotiating with germany for U-boat long term payment.. so far germany has agreed with 5 years credit compared to 10 years with chinese.

 

[Penguin]

- They are good value for money: all will have CIWS, SSM and SAM whereas only half the Type 21s have SSM and CIWS (but not SAM)and only half have SAM (but no CIWS or SSM) and their cost is moderate (compared to 300-400 million for a FREMM).
- PN needs replacements for the Type 21s now: what other ship could have been ordered, built and delivered on this short notice?
- There will be domestically built F22Ps with Chinese assistence (people forget how important this capability is in the long run. It will also help facilitate eventual domestic building of e.g. MILGEM and future ships)
- One needs to consider these ships in the context of PN doctrine and posture: nice and cool as they may be, larger ships like Type 054A may not at all be a military necessary. (In other words, stop letting the comparison with IN drive your tinking about Pakistan's naval needs: there are a host of other naval tasks to be performed which have nothing to do with India or its navy)

 

[Zulfiqar]

please elaborate? OHP class frigate has better weapon package and costs only 65 million dollars..

We already have one F-22 P coming back to pakistan. By the end of 2010 we will get some of the others too.

One bird in hand is better than two in the bush.

pakistan military still operates more western equipments and the new F-16 has no strings attached...
F-22P is a upgraded Type-053 design which itself is a late 1970s design.

IIRC According to H Khan our lynx helicopters couldn't operate for years because the British did not release spare parts (the rotor blades).

I think that you have forgotten the dreaded 90s but PA,PAF and PN has not. This is why they are diversifying the risk.

With F-22s we will get a boost in making better surface ships. It is still better than buying off the shelf things.

I myself love the western weapons but you have to consider PN's options. Many of our defence procurements are on credit.

Like any other frigate F-22s can also be upgraded by adding VLS. If need be PN can procure upgraded umkhonto missiles and add FL 3000N. It already has very good anti ship capability.

 

[Myth_buster_1]

- They are good value for money: all will have CIWS, SSM and SAM whereas only half the Type 21s have SSM and CIWS (but not SAM)and only half have SAM (but no CIWS or SSM) and their cost is moderate (compared to 300-400 million for a FREMM).

I still dont get why people keep on saying F-22P is a good value for money.... we have actually waisted our money on substandard frigates which no other modern navy uses.. other then pakistan only Azerbijian and Bangladesh have shown interest....
Now remember "quality over quantity?"... FREMM can alone take down 3-4 F-22P on its own.. its main gun is only used on Russian patrol boat while we have it on a frigate...

- PN needs replacements for the Type 21s now: what other ship could have been ordered, built and delivered on this short notice?

the deal was signed in 2005 and the first frigate to arrive in pakistan is late 2009.. even if today we sign type-214 deal it will take 64 months for the first boat to be dilivered and that even after budiling them at home.. so dont know whats the short notice is about..
5 years is not a short notice...
Their are quite a few other option which offers latest technology rather get so much charged for a frigate which is technically 2 decades behind for its time.

- gowinds
- Milgem

i know they cant be build in short notice... but still by far the better technology...

- There will be domestically built F22Ps with Chinese assistence (people forget how important this capability is in the long run. It will also help facilitate eventual domestic building of e.g. MILGEM and future ships)

So we waisted 750 million dollars just to facilitate our domestic building? i am pretty sure if PN can obsorb Agostas subs news frigates or corvettes should not be a problem.

- One needs to consider these ships in the context of PN doctrine and posture: nice and cool as they may be, larger ships like Type 054A may not at all be a military necessary. (In other words, stop letting the comparison with IN drive your tinking about Pakistan's naval needs: there are a host of other naval tasks to be performed which have nothing to do with India or its navy)

how about we change PN name to cost gaurds as WOT, anti-smugeling, anti-pirate seems to be their prime task these days??

 

[Myth_buster_1]

We already have one F-22 P coming back to pakistan. By the end of 2010 we will get some of the others too.

One bird in hand is better than two in the bush.

so... OHP is arriving next year.... costs only 65 million... carries supirior AShM, torpedos, and CIWS Phalanx....

With F-22s we will get a boost in making better surface ships. It is still better than buying off the shelf things.

out of 4 we will be building only 1 at home.

I myself love the western weapons but you have to consider PN's options. Many of our defence procurements are on credit.

yes thats why Germany agreed for 5 years credit for type-214 TOT deal. pakistan is trying to push them for 10-15 years.

Like any other frigate F-22s can also be upgraded by adding VLS. If need be PN can procure upgraded umkhonto missiles and add FL 3000N. It already has very good anti ship capability.

i dough VLS can be intergated in current F-22P..

 

[wangrong]

1、Atonement roadbed radar
2、PN needs replacements for the Type 21s now
3、Raises the Pakistani industrialization level

 

[Righteous_Fire]

Nice Thread Growler. I wanted to contribute but alot has been discussed already!

In my opinion, this F22P is more like defensive. If offensive, we require to have more DESTROYERS, am I correct?

Yes! F22p is more defense than offense and its not good for deep strike type of missions either.

As growler pointed out:

1) We have wasted our money when we could have had better Corvettes
2) As growler pointed out, Milgem is a good option

Maybe PN has plans for these as coastal or proximal defense?

 

[batmannow]

Nice Thread Growler. I wanted to contribute but alot has been discussed already!




Yes! F22p is more defense than offense and its not good for deep strike type of missions either.

As growler pointed out:

1) We have wasted our money when we could have had better Corvettes
2) As growler pointed out, Milgem is a good option

Maybe PN has plans for these as coastal or proximal defense?

by the way , who is giving us, " Milgem " thing!
sorry, its very nice wish full thinking my friend but , practicly , it cant be done , & in the end , what if we couldnt get"f-22p" from china!

its good to dream, for the westren equipments but, its far better to get the things,from our trusted , all weather friend "CHINA".

 

[BATMAN]

Pakistan's foreign sources of defense equipment supply can be classify in two baskets. east and west. I think it is not wise to put all eggs in western basket, where as with China we will face no issues of spares.
I believe slowly Chinese standard will match to western.
I personally think that we should do more defense related bussines with China instead of west but we should negotiate it better, which is hard job when fedral govt. is not willing to finance Pakistan's defence.
In Pakistan Sindh and Baluchistan's provinvial govt. and hawks in media and judiciary are not willing to give away the baron land to our defense forces for their operations.

 

[Righteous_Fire]

by the way , who is giving us, " Milgem " thing!

Milgem is built by Turkey with some systems from western cuntries. We have had good civilian and military ties with Turkey, and in acquiring Milgem from them the only two obstacles would be:
1) Money
2) Western Cuntries objecting to this who have advanced sensor suites and other systems in building Milgem

as for 1) Growler already pointed out, PN could have worked it out without spending the money on F22Ps

as for 2) If they dont agree we can always replace them with other systems that would be gran

As for China, no one said they arent our good friends but we should always consider the options and get the best even if that best is not made by China.

F22Ps in its own right is a good weapons platform, BUT what role does it play in a standoff between PN and IN?

I dont think we would be better off?

 

[TaimiKhan]

Well from all the talk above it seems stupids are sitting in the PN who opted for this option of frigates leaving all the modern western frigates.

750$Million deal for 4 frigates, which include the 6 helicopters, all the ammunition for the frigates which include the 20+ ASMs, torpedoes and other stuff.

Well if westerners or any other advanced country can give such a deal (which i doubt) then we should have gone with it.

The Chinese Type-730B CIWS has been made on the pattern of Goal Keeper, this system can track up to thirty targets, engaging the four most urgent. It will minimize the salvo length to engage as many targets as possible and is thought to be able to deal with two pairs of sea-skimming missiles as little as five seconds apart. The CIWS can be changed to the FL-3000N system.

As for the 76mm gun, this is chinese made russian design which was selected in competition with 100mm chinese & french guns, and the newer Type-054A chinese ship has the same gun as F-22P has, plus Type-054A 4 russian CIWS AK-630 have been replaced by chinese Type-730 CIWS. Plus many russian ships also have the 76mm gun.

So if chinese have selected Type 730 CIWS & 76mm gun for their latest destroyer then i do think they are capable enough to perform exceptionally.

The SAM can engage aircrafts, UAV & subsonic or supersonic ASMs.

The ASMs of F-22P are sufficient enough and they have the capability to be upgraded to the newest chinese ASMs of any model.

If we closely look at the capability of F-22P it has decent firepower & can be a useful addition to PN for defensive roles.

PN ships will perform a defensive role to keep open the sea lanes, while the submarines will form the offensive punch.

I don't think PN has wasted money on this ship, this ship has the potential to be further upgraded, on the other hand the american OHP class frigates are old, structure would be old and will come with american weapon systems which as all of u know are prone to sanctions & u never know what else problem they can have.

 

[Zulfiqar]

so... OHP is arriving next year.... costs only 65 million... carries supirior AShM, torpedos, and CIWS Phalanx....

Yeah but only one. No one can tell the future and looking at the past trends it was much feasible to go for chinese equipment as they always come with the least hiccups.

PN cannot hope for best case scenarios. They need a supplier that can help them even when the other suppliers cannot.

We are only getting OHPs because of our MNNA status. We did not have that previously.

out of 4 we will be building only 1 at home.

Well its a start.

i dough VLS can be intergated in current F-22P.

Why not,if turkey can upgrade OHPs with VLS then why can't the chinese?

 

[Myth_buster_1]

Well from all the talk above it seems stupids are sitting in the PN who opted for this option of frigates leaving all the modern western frigates. .

well pretty much like it... their is a huge possibility of kick backs used by the chinese in top brass level.. better get use to chinese dealings.. they know how to grab customers and sell their stuff..

750$Million deal for 4 frigates, which include the 6 helicopters, all the ammunition for the frigates which include the 20+ ASMs, torpedoes and other stuff.

In a 750 million dollars budget i can probably list few better platform solution which could actually lift PN capability over these F-22ps...

-purchase 1 FREMM multi role frigate from france at cost of 400 million dollars which should arrive within 2-3 years after the contract. add another agosta-90b in the fleet or induct Gowind corvettes which should work in conjunction with the mother ship "FREMM"....

and lol... all the goodies that you have mentioned like torpedos AShM etc are not part of the deal...

The Chinese Type-730B CIWS has been made on the pattern of Goal Keeper, this system can track up to thirty targets, engaging the four most urgent. It will minimize the salvo length to engage as many targets as possible and is thought to be able to deal with two pairs of sea-skimming missiles as little as five seconds apart. The CIWS can be changed to the FL-3000N system.

In the late 1970s, China joined the Western powers in an informal alliance against the Soviet Union. At the time, China's military equipment was seriously lagging behind the Soviets in quality, and Beijing sought Western assistance to modernize its military. Countries such as the US, UK, Italy, France, Germany, Australia, and Israel responded by providing China with military sales and technology transfers, either openly or covertly.

thats why we see Type-730B a variant of "Goal keeper", Z-9 "Eurocopter Dauphin", HHQ-7 "Crotale" etc... most of these stuff are 25 years old technology and i dough china can upgrade them to todays european standard.. the FL-3000 you are talking about is going to be too late if its added to F-22P as HHQ-7 has to serve its service..

As for the 76mm gun, this is chinese made russian design which was selected in competition with 100mm chinese & french guns, and the newer Type-054A chinese ship has the same gun as F-22P has, plus Type-054A 4 russian CIWS AK-630 have been replaced by chinese Type-730 CIWS. Plus many russian ships also have the 76mm gun.

dont even mention its main gun because its a joke! do you know which platform uses russian version of AK?
Tarantul class corvette
Displacement: now catch this "480" tonnes!

their is nothing wrong with the 76mm gun but with the model of the gun that we are getting...

So if chinese have selected Type 730 CIWS & 76mm gun for their latest destroyer then i do think they are capable enough to perform exceptionally.

well thats not a good criteria to judge..

The SAM can engage aircrafts, UAV & subsonic or supersonic ASMs.The ASMs of F-22P are sufficient enough and they have the capability to be upgraded to the newest chinese ASMs of any model.

dude stop acting like a sales person! stop defending it... think out of blind pak-china friend ship box...

If we closely look at the capability of F-22P it has decent firepower & can be a useful addition to PN for defensive roles.

what? 750 million dollars on 4 platforms for only defensive roles??

PN ships will perform a defensive role to keep open the sea lanes, while the submarines will form the offensive punch.

I don't think PN has wasted money on this ship, this ship has the potential to be further upgraded, on the other hand the american OHP class frigates are old, structure would be old and will come with american weapon systems which as all of u know are prone to sanctions & u never know what else problem they can have.

at the end of day OHP is a better frigate then F-22P... wait after turkey installs its indigenous systems then IMO F-22P has to pack its bags.. Turkey also recived these frigates second hand from US... and they have alot of ambision with these frigates... and mind you pakistan is not only opting 1 but infact 6 are on its way..