F-22 VS SU-35BM.......

[The SC]

You made a silly claim that in 1982 all Syrian jets were shot down with BVR missiles from Israeli airspace.

I brought u over dozen footages with WVR kills from 1982 proving once again that u are a fool and ignorant.

What you are rambling now? Go better post on Qaher-313. Thats only thread that suits ur intelligence.

And you are talking about intelligence! You said the last big encounter . I won't insult you since I know how foolish you are.

Here are the facts:
Operation Mole Cricket 19
IAF aircraft carried electronic countermeasures pods to foil radar tracking. The IAF command post in Tel Aviv provided Ivry a real-time command picture of the air battle through various data links. E-2Cs with airborne surveillance radar down-linked their pictures to the command post. A squadron of Tadiran Mastiff and IAI Scout Remotely Piloted Vehicles (RPV) kept at least two vehicles in the air all the time, providing constant location of the SAM batteries. A two-way voice communications link between Ivry and his pilots was set up, allowing for real-time command.
The primary Syrian fighters involved were MiG-21, with considerable numbers of MiG-23s and Su-20s also deployed. Syrian aircraft depended on ground-controlled interception (GCI) sites for command and control. The SAM sites were a combination of SA-2s, SA-3s, and SA-6s. The IAF's F-15s, F-16s, F-4s, and Kfirs were equipped with AIM-7F Sparrow radar-guided missiles, AIM-9L Sidewinder infrared-guided missiles, and computer-aimed 20-mm cannons. The F-15s and F-16s were equipped with a Head-up display (HUD) system.

The Mastiff RPVs went in first to cause the Syrian SAMs to turn on their radars by convincing the Syrians that many attack aircraft were overhead. Once the Mastiffs were tracked by Syrian radar, the tracking signals were relayed to another Scout outside of the missiles' range. The Scout then relayed the signal to E2C Hawkeye aircraft orbiting off the coast. The data gathered was analyzed by the E2Cs and Boeing 707 ECM aircraft. Once the SAM crews fired missiles at the drones, the F-15s and F-16s provided air cover while F-4 Phantoms attacked the SAM batteries, destroying them with AGM-78 and AGM-45 anti-radiation missiles. The rapid flight time of the missiles minimized the F-4s' exposure to the SAMs. The Syrians reportedly fired 57 SA-6s, to no effect.

According to Ivry, many of the SAM batteries were on the Syrian side of the border. Said Eitan, "From the operational point of view I can say that we used the mini-RPVs, long before the war, to identify and locate all the Syrian missile batteries. We then used superior electronic devices which enabled us to "blind" or neutralize the missile sites' ground-to-air radar. We rendered them ineffective to take reliable fixes on our aircraft aloft. But in advance of direct aerial attacks, we used long-range artillery".



The Syrians responded by launching about 100 fighter aircraft to stop the attacks. Intercepting IAF pilots relied frequently on VHF radio, in hopes of preserving their tactical communications and links to the command post. Selective airborne communications jamming disrupted the airwaves for the MiG-21s and MiG-23s and cut them off from ground control, making them vulnerable to AWACS-directed attacks from the Israeli F-15s and F-16s.

The IAF positioned RPVs over three major airfields in Syria to report when and how many Syrian aircraft were taking off. The data was transmitted to the E-2Cs. The IAF took advantage of the fact that the MiGs had only nose and tail alert radar systems and no side warnings or look-up and look-down systems, by jamming the GCI communications net. E-2Cs guided the Israeli aircraft into positions that enabled them to attack the Syrian aircraft from the side, where the latter would have no warning. Because of the jamming, the Syrians GCI controllers could not direct their pilots toward the incoming Israeli aircraft. The Sparrow missiles attacked at speeds of Mach 3.5 at ranges of 14 to 25 miles, which meant that they were not only outside the Syrians' radar range but also outside their visual range. The Sidewinders' "head-on" capabilities at close range gave the Israelis firepower advantage.

Operation Mole Cricket 19 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
So, who is the ignorant here?
Not talking about every US major air asset used by Usrael. do not make us laugh more.

OT: Do you have something to say about the topic? not foolish or full of ignorance please, try to contribute positively if it is not too much to ask from a zionist zealot.

 

[Superboy]

F-22A compared to Su-35S would be like Me 262 compared to P-51H, the former being an entire new generation whereas the latter is an upgrade of an older generation. This does not mean F-22A is better than Su-35S, just like Me 262 was not better than P-51H which was very lethal.

 

[500]

The IAF positioned RPVs over three major airfields in Syria to report when and how many Syrian aircraft were taking off. The data was transmitted to the E-2Cs. The IAF took advantage of the fact that the MiGs had only nose and tail alert radar systems and no side warnings or look-up and look-down systems, by jamming the GCI communications net. E-2Cs guided the Israeli aircraft into positions that enabled them to attack the Syrian aircraft from the side, where the latter would have no warning. Because of the jamming, the Syrians GCI controllers could not direct their pilots toward the incoming Israeli aircraft. The Sparrow missiles attacked at speeds of Mach 3.5 at ranges of 14 to 25 miles, which meant that they were not only outside the Syrians' radar range but also outside their visual range. The Sidewinders' "head-on" capabilities at close range gave the Israelis firepower advantage.

I am glad that you opened Wikipedia and decided to learn something.

1) It nowhere says that all were shot from WVR. Most were shot down by Israeli Python-3 missiles. As result of this success China adopted these missiles and uses them till this day.

2) The Beqaa valley is located 70 miles of Israel border, so those few who were shot by Sidewinders were still shot down over the Lebanese territory, contrary to ur idiotic claim.

Go post more on Qaher-313 and stop making a joke of urself.

 

[flamer84]

There you have it.'Murica surrender !

 

[Super Falcon]

Well i think SU 35 can beat F 22 in dogfight pitty is SU 35 not seen a war nor F22 jet it is very hard but on paper F 22 leads but we all knows battle fought in air when it comes to fighter jets not on papers some times the X factors of fighter jet countries dont bring ob paper but SU 35 is very potent system

 

[foxhoundbis]

To SC

And you are talking about intelligence! You said the last big encounter . I won't insult you since I know how foolish you are.

Here are the facts:
Operation Mole Cricket 19

.....Operation Mole Cricket 19 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
So, who is the ignorant here?
Not talking about every US major air asset used by Usrael. do not make us laugh more.

OT: Do you have something to say about the topic? not foolish or full of ignorance please, try to contribute positively if it is not too much to ask from a zionist zealot.

The problem wikipedia is no longer a credible source. You must be aware that wikipedia is nicknamed "Jewikipedia".
This article was written directly by Israeli propaganda minister. During the war of 1982 Israel achieved a very limited goals, few years later it appears it was total faillure. The only credible goal that Israel achieveved aside destruction of syrian SAM-we will see why next- in Lebanon, was to expelled Yasser Arafat's -because lack of motivation, corrupted direction, betrayals, fights between those who want to collaborate with Israel, and those who want to resist, etc.... - Fatah from Lebanon.
Why did Israel successfully "wiped of the map" syrian air defense in Lebanon ?
In fact, Israel and US complained to Moscow about the installation of syrian SAM in Lebanon, and soviet leaders asked syrian president ASSAD not to harm Israel by looking for a war. Syria high command decided to put their air defence in non-offensive build up, in order to comply to their soviet allies. They decided to gather many of their radars instead of scatter them, as they did successfully few years before. Once Israel was aware, they realized that none air defense could threat their fighter-bombers, they launched a surprise atttack with limited results. This is far from the israelis used to swagger. We will have the occasion to discuss about Lebanon conflict in 1982, and you will see, that Israel achieved mixed results, it revealed that this campaign was a total faillure.



Back to this subject about F-22 vs SU-35.

F-22, F-35 philosophy

Untill now the ultimate US dream is :
Building up fighter-bombers like F-22, invisible to russian-chinese radars, could launch BVR air to air missiles with range up to 100 km, if not 200, 300, 400 km, -why not 1000 km ?- without being detected, and kills all migs, sukhoi, J-10,11, 15, 16, 20, and 31. After, squadrons of F-35 launching air raids at low and very low altitude -as in a best happy end Hollywood's movies- against all ennemies' air defense, wipping out the battelfield all sam, and oblitering all ennemies ground forces. Once it is done, they send B2 to bomb, and wipe of map all ennemies infrastructures, with their "modern" JDAM bombs, launched from 8, 10.000 meters altitude. In this philosophy the dogfights disapears from air combats. The men disapear from the battlefields. This concept, or philosophy looks like science fiction, and it requires limited time in training, hence you could even send women as pilots. Women with men in the war, and in air war. Judith Butler will jubilate! The F-22 philosophy is the same as the F-35's. The machine is before the man. No wonder why americans -or supposed, and well payed, very well payed - pundits support mordicus that their F-22 could without problems eliminated all Migs and Sukhoi, whatever they belong to Iran, Syria, China, Russia, India. These beautifull scenaris work, indeed, nevertheless, only on paper.

Stealth technology.

Contrary to what it is swagered, this concept never totally worked neither in the past, nor in present, even less in future.
In 1991, in order to send their F-117, americans sent their commandos to destroy chieftly the huge VHF radar station in Iraq. Because the F-117 could be stealthy to often used radar frequencies, but not to the old and still effective VHF frequencies. After the war in 1991, a combined study leaded by US Air Force concluded that their F-117 were spotted several times by old iraqi's 1960's radars. In 1999 the concept was completly down, because serbian air defense downed 2 F-117, and 1 B-2.

BVR technology

In fact this is the problem, this is the great problem. Most of the sources come from those who produce the BVR. First of all, in order to have an objective idea about the effectiveness of the BVR, I eliminate all israelis claims, not because I don't like them, but because, there are only lies and propaganda. The other sources come from US Air Force, we will see next that, they lie too, because of lobbies. Untill now there are not credible sources about the effectiveness of BVR. How much were successfull ? Where ? In what conditions ?
It appears after long long research that BVR effectiveness if it exist, are doubfull. Most of the time there was WVR. And most of the success were aquired by cannons. It appears that dogfights are still the ultimate moments in air combat.

Conclusion.

Comparing SU-35 and F-22, means comparing two concepts, two philosophies, the first one did its proofs, and the second is still a science fiction, if not fantaisies. The ultimate moment between a SU-35 and F-22 will be in dogfight. Which one is better ? It seems that in this area the russian is largely ahead. But it depends chieflly on pilots.

 

[Coolboy]

To SC


The problem wikipedia is no longer a credible source. You must be aware that wikipedia is nicknamed "Jewikipedia".
This article was written directly by Israeli propaganda minister. During the war of 1982 Israel achieved a very limited goals, few years later it appears it was total faillure. The only credible goal that Israel achieveved aside destruction of syrian SAM-we will see why next- in Lebanon, was to expelled Yasser Arafat's -because lack of motivation, corrupted direction, betrayals, fights between those who want to collaborate with Israel, and those who want to resist, etc.... - Fatah from Lebanon.
Why did Israel successfully "wiped of the map" syrian air defense in Lebanon ?
In fact, Israel and US complained to Moscow about the installation of syrian SAM in Lebanon, and soviet leaders asked syrian president ASSAD not to harm Israel by looking for a war. Syria high command decided to put their air defence in non-offensive build up, in order to comply to their soviet allies. They decided to gather many of their radars instead of scatter them, as they did successfully few years before. Once Israel was aware, they realized that none air defense could threat their fighter-bombers, they launched a surprise atttack with limited results. This is far from the israelis used to swagger. We will have the occasion to discuss about Lebanon conflict in 1982, and you will see, that Israel achieved mixed results, it revealed that this campaign was a total faillure.



Back to this subject about F-22 vs SU-35.

F-22, F-35 philosophy

Untill now the ultimate US dream is :
Building up fighter-bombers like F-22, invisible to russian-chinese radars, could launch BVR air to air missiles with range up to 100 km, if not 200, 300, 400 km, -why not 1000 km ?- without being detected, and kills all migs, sukhoi, J-10,11, 15, 16, 20, and 31. After, squadrons of F-35 launching air raids at low and very low altitude -as in a best happy end Hollywood's movies- against all ennemies' air defense, wipping out the battelfield all sam, and oblitering all ennemies ground forces. Once it is done, they send B2 to bomb, and wipe of map all ennemies infrastructures, with their "modern" JDAM bombs, launched from 8, 10.000 meters altitude. In this philosophy the dogfights disapears from air combats. The men disapear from the battlefields. This concept, or philosophy looks like science fiction, and it requires limited time in training, hence you could even send women as pilots. Women with men in the war, and in air war. Judith Butler will jubilate! The F-22 philosophy is the same as the F-35's. The machine is before the man. No wonder why americans -or supposed, and well payed, very well payed - pundits support mordicus that their F-22 could without problems eliminated all Migs and Sukhoi, whatever they belong to Iran, Syria, China, Russia, India. These beautifull scenaris work, indeed, nevertheless, only on paper.

Stealth technology.

Contrary to what it is swagered, this concept never totally worked neither in the past, nor in present, even less in future.
In 1991, in order to send their F-117, americans sent their commandos to destroy chieftly the huge VHF radar station in Iraq. Because the F-117 could be stealthy to often used radar frequencies, but not to the old and still effective VHF frequencies. After the war in 1991, a combined study leaded by US Air Force concluded that their F-117 were spotted several times by old iraqi's 1960's radars. In 1999 the concept was completly down, because serbian air defense downed 2 F-117, and 1 B-2.

BVR technology

In fact this is the problem, this is the great problem. Most of the sources come from those who produce the BVR. First of all, in order to have an objective idea about the effectiveness of the BVR, I eliminate all israelis claims, not because I don't like them, but because, there are only lies and propaganda. The other sources come from US Air Force, we will see next that, they lie too, because of lobbies. Untill now there are not credible sources about the effectiveness of BVR. How much were successfull ? Where ? In what conditions ?
It appears after long long research that BVR effectiveness if it exist, are doubfull. Most of the time there was WVR. And most of the success were aquired by cannons. It appears that dogfights are still the ultimate moments in air combat.

Conclusion.

Comparing SU-35 and F-22, means comparing two concepts, two philosophies, the first one did its proofs, and the second is still a science fiction, if not fantaisies. The ultimate moment between a SU-35 and F-22 will be in dogfight. Which one is better ? It seems that in this area the russian is largely ahead. But it depends chieflly on pilots.

This is what i am trying to tell them that its easy for Russian Flanker to bring The Raptor WVR fight due its strong Jammers and counter measures package and once if raptor get caught in WVR fight then Flankers are far better at dog fight... But still would like to say that Pilot tactics matters alot........

 

[foxhoundbis]

....if raptor get caught in WVR fight then Flankers are far better at dog fight... But still would like to say that Pilot tactics matters alot........

The fight will be in wvr. The bvr is a kind of Spielberg's fantaisies, and never succeeded. Moreover the stealth will have not more success, as every basic VHF radar could detect it, if the F-22 switch on its radar, all air defences will track it. Furthermore, if you add that a pilot is trained to dodge air to air missile, or every missiles including surface to air missile, the final combat will last in a dogfight, and with canons. Nevertheless, as it was said, it is the pilot skill that will determine who will win. It was like that yesterday, it is like that today, and it will be like that tommorow.

 

[gambit]

Hmm...Looks like we have two 12-yr olds debating something they know nothing about. I stopped at the two F-117s and one B-2 loss in Yugoslavia.

 

[Wolfhound]

The fight will be in wvr. The bvr is a kind of Spielberg's fantaisies, and never succeeded. Moreover the stealth will have not more success, as every basic VHF radar could detect it, if the F-22 switch on its radar, all air defences will track it. Furthermore, if you add that a pilot is trained to dodge air to air missile, or every missiles including surface to air missile, the final combat will last in a dogfight, and with canons. Nevertheless, as it was said, it is the pilot skill that will determine who will win. It was like that yesterday, it is like that today, and it will be like that tommorow.

If want you say is right and Bvr missiles are actually incapable then why is the rest of the world also buying this "incapable" technology?

 

[Coolboy]

If want you say is right and Bvr missiles are actually incapable then why is the rest of the world also buying this "incapable" technology?

BVR are made for weak pilots and low capability jets......

 

[HariPrasad]

The comparison will be according to five points: Stealth,Avionics,Maneuverability,Armament and Range

1- Stealth: F-22 is a stealth fighter with RCS -40 dB and all kinds of emissions reduced extremely and SU-35 gives high amount of emissions
So F-22 take the advantage

2- Avionics: In terms of radar vs 1m2 the Irbis-E of SU-35 defeats APG 77 of F-22 (270 km vs 240 km) however F-22 uses AESA radar with advanced LPI technology.

In terms of detecting passively SU-35 Khibiny-M can not detect F-22 passively due to LPI mode in F-22 radar but this still theoretical
but F-22 equivalent system ALR-94 is very good systems with range up to 400 Km i think it can detect SU-35 with its high emissions

but Su-35 have an advantage with IRST however Flanker can not use it as it will be detected before F-22 enters its detection range
So F-22 take the advantage

3- Maneuverability:

Su-35 performs significantly at low speeds and also in high speeds and have 3D TVC
F-22 performs good in high speeds due to thrust to weight ratio but only in Pitch axis ( 2D TVC)
So Su-35 take the lead in dogfights

4- Armament:

Su-35 can carry about twice payload of air-to-air missiles of F-22 but Su-35 carry missiles externally this increases drag and enlarge RCS and this result in performance hit
So i think F-22 take the lead

5- Range:
Su-35: 3600 km
F-22: 3220 km
Su-35 take the lead

Final conclusion:
F-22 take the lead with its stealthy and avionics
But still we must say that Su-35 is 4.5th generation fighter and F-22 5th generation

Note:
Some systems no one can document its performance like Khibiny-M for example as these systems are military secrets

Disagree with armament compression. Actually< if Su 35 carries double armaments , it leads. You have already given a lead to F22 in stealth so you can not do that twice. Su 35 carries double the weigth, It is in advantage.

 

[gambit]

BVR are made for weak pilots and low capability jets......

Son...This is so stupid I am going to leave it up to your fellow Pakistanis to set you straight.

 

[Informant]

BVR are made for weak pilots and low capability jets......

Chandh marna bhi bekaar tujhe.

 

[Wolfhound]

BVR are made for weak pilots and low capability jets......

You my friend are on some really cheap desi weed.