F 18 offer to PAF in the 80's

[MastanKhan]

Hi,

After 9/11 we had hard cash---we were telling everyone we have hard cash---we were going out and giving aid to poorer nations than us in south asia---it was not about funding---the funding for the airbus was available---airbus was desperate to sell us the aircraft---we had resources---our credit rating was very high at that time as compared to now or before 9/11.

Airbus would have also paid kickbacks to our purchasers----but boeing would not. So, the decision would have been made higher up to go with boeing.

As I mentioned earlier---the reason for boeing was direct non stop flight from pak to the u s---pak got the promises from boeing that it would happen---but pak being pak---didnot discuss it with the related agency---the dept of homeland security---it didnot do a proper analysis of the situation.

Why do I blame them---there is never a proper analysis of any situation in pak---even our principal defence item purchases are screwed up by lack of professional and 'IMPERSONAL ASSESSMENT.

Everytime I come up with something---there is an excuse---we didnot have the money----that is a joke---we have been living without money all these years and we have all kinds of stuff---at one stage this statement become patronizing---when we have money---we become cocky and 'jack' around---like we did between 9/11 and 2005 earthquake. Our coffers were filled up and increasing by the day---our credit rating was B -, which was a great great rating for pakistan---there was financing available from everywhere---.

We had the 4 plus years window of oppurtunity---in our cockiness---we were not able to place the most important major defence related order
.

The purchase of M2k doesnot go back to qatar or uae----it is long before that----we claim our PAF pilots to be co-ck of the walk---what difference does it make if the m2k was not upto par F 16----taiwan may say whatever----the Greeks put their money where their mouth is---they blew the F 16 out of the air---in air to air combat-----indian airforce---we don't stop making fun of their pilots---blew out posts to kingdomk come at kargil---.

What happened to the man nehind the machine----I guess it is just a convenience rhetoric at this stage or any stage when we feel it is neccessary.

 

[fatman17]

^^i think its best to agree to disagree as this discource has been discussed at length before.

with due respect!

 

[MastanKhan]

Hi,

It reminds of the saying---I don't want to play anymore so I am going to take my ball and bat and leave---thankyou.

 

[blain2]

PAF did not entertain the F-18 option, because there was no economy of scale to leverage with that purchase. When it was pitched to the PAF, the USAF had already decided upon and was well on its way with the F-16 induction and the USN had not decided on the procurement. In addition, EPAFs (European Air Forces participating in the F-16 program) had already bought into the F-16 program as such for Pakistan, it did not make any sense to be the single export partner for an aircraft which was, at that time, primarily being customized for a naval role.

The issue was not specifically around twin-engines because we have flown twin-engined aircraft in the past.

 

[MastanKhan]

Hi,

It is not the twin engines---the problem is with the TWIN TAILS'.

 

[H2O3C4Nitrogen]

To me it looks like the paks---set up the u s of a for the sale of F 16's---a plane that was really not needed in the first place----america would never have sold F 16 to india---we had the oppurtunity of getting assembly line for the mirage F 1's in the 70's---we let it roll by---our love affair with the F 16 has literally doomed our relationship with the u s of a---.

With all due respect Sir, in those times The US still had the best fighter Aircraft and US being the sole player in south asia and everybody had those sentiments for US like which we see for China now,Many would have thought to go for the Top notch fighter to contour the soviets and F-16 came out as the most viable option at that time,Owing to the excessively good relations with the Regan Administration.

 

[MastanKhan]

With all due respect Sir, in those times The US still had the best fighter Aircraft and US being the sole player in south asia and everybody had those sentiments for US like which we see for China now,Many would have thought to go for the Top notch fighter to contour the soviets and F-16 came out as the most viable option at that time,Owing to the excessively good relations with the Regan Administration.

Hi,

Thank you for your post----there are times in life when the best of the best is not the best deal in the long term---and going for the second best creates a scenario that would become fruitful over the period of time.

Americans always create hypes over their systems and the french as fools that they are end up playing for the second's and third's and sometimes for nothing for their top notch products.

When you are preparing for an enemy the size of india----you cannot compete in numbers---the only thing you can do is to whatever you have ----does it compare positively when standing up against the opponent and being pakistan---is there a second option available---.

Secondly---you cannot go to sleep----you have to have a game plan---pak millitary never had a game plan---pak millitary never had a sales pitch to put up to the public ----they didnot know how to overcome obstacles that were being put up in the purchase of the F 16's at first and then the M2K's---.

You see---regardless of what happens---the purchase of major weapons systems must never be stopped just because there was an accusation of kick backs---.

The first consideration is that is it the right item----if it is the right item then the issues of kick bakcs can be taken up in due time---.

It takes years to analyze a system till the time of its delivery and induction---.

Guess what about the capability---what we could have had by years 2000----we will not have or barely have it by 2015---. When that happens---then you loose you position of bargain and deal making against your enemy---and it is very evident in our relations with india at this moment and as well as france---.

Remember---a couple of years ago an SU 30 and a mirage 2000 flew right through pak air space and pak air force could do nothing about it---except to show off a picture of a so called 'missile lock' onthe SU 30---.

The excuse given was----we didnot want to escalate the tension----oh yeah---it was not the tension----it was because we didnot have anything to fight with afterwards---.

It was the same scenario of the atlantique being repeated---they shot it down and we could not do anything in retaliation because we didnot have anything---.


Did anyone ask Gen Kiyani---'sir---what kind of missile had a lock on the su 30'---.

Pak could have done very well with the Mirage F1 against whgat the russians had to put up----.

Paf shot down some third rate russian aircraft and bragged about it like there was no tomorrow--they should have been ashamed of making those claims against those IMPOTENT aircraft---those which could hardly shoot back.

 

[H2O3C4Nitrogen]

^^
I think now days the Technolgy and automation has progreesed to new frontiers, Pilots get trained on Simulated scenarios in no time.
Being an operator of F-16 why would Pakistan go for M2K ,if someone can corret me that Turky did offered the necessory upgrades of our F-16s in 99-2000. And some of our birds were upgraded and deffinately after going nuclear i guess going for expensive Fighter Aircraft had certainly lost the priority. Plus in tough times the Chinese Joint Sino Pak fighter was more appealing , so the Defence instituions put there mony there , They were getting considerably good aircraft with a production line plus without any wory for spares.
Pakistan did requsted the Brizillians for an AEWACS but was turned down, most likly due to the indians.
Later down the road i am sure there will be more solutions available to the PAF.
Certinly the Economics went to the top priority after going nuclear.

BTW whats the authenticity of Su-30 and M2k flying right through Pakistan and Pakistan wont doing any thing. There must have been a proper protocol placed which defines a WarTime and PeaceTime Engagement Scenarios.

 

[SekrutYakhni]

One should learn from mistakes. Our main goal right now should be to limit defence procurements to the defensive level, bare minimum. Spend money on education and economy. All those fancy aid programs, FMS etc will not help us in the long run.

"pak millitary never had a game plan---pak millitary never had a sales pitch to put up to the public"
The problem with Pak military is, they are capable as individuals but not at organizational level. The biggest problem we face today is, 'promotion of your men', in defence and otherwise.
Had we overcome that, the brightest individuals in our army could have transformed our defence industry. Remember, 'brightest' men do not necessarily become generals--you know why--

However, I think that our defence men are overcoming past mistakes which is good.

 

[SekrutYakhni]

"nuclear i guess going for expensive Fighter Aircraft had certainly lost the priority."

Easy said than done.

Scenario: You are at war, lost half of the ground. Do you think that it is easy to press the 'red' button, nuclear?

It is not about having balls---It is about looking at the consequences, immense collateral damage.


Off topic but: If we were to use nuclear weapons against India if we lost half of the ground, international pressure would be immense. Let alone international pressure, the remaining Pakistanis would be doomed for a century, people would label us offensive guys, worst than Hitler--you name it..

Keep in mind the after effects of that--Cancer, Blood Disorders, Cataracts, Malignant Tumors etc

Fighters are and will remain the back bone.

 

[MastanKhan]

^^
I think now days the Technolgy and automation has progreesed to new frontiers, Pilots get trained on Simulated scenarios in no time.
Being an operator of F-16 why would Pakistan go for M2K ,if someone can corret me that Turky did offered the necessory upgrades of our F-16s in 99-2000. And some of our birds were upgraded and deffinately after going nuclear i guess going for expensive Fighter Aircraft had certainly lost the priority. Plus in tough times the Chinese Joint Sino Pak fighter was more appealing , so the Defence instituions put there mony there , They were getting considerably good aircraft with a production line plus without any wory for spares.
Pakistan did requsted the Brizillians for an AEWACS but was turned down, most likly due to the indians.
Later down the road i am sure there will be more solutions available to the PAF.
Certinly the Economics went to the top priority after going nuclear.

BTW whats the authenticity of Su-30 and M2k flying right through Pakistan and Pakistan wont doing any thing. There must have been a proper protocol placed which defines a WarTime and PeaceTime Engagement Scenarios.

Hi,

My apologies---that I could not make any sense for you in my post regarding the M2K.

The protocol is only a SLAVE to the range of your BVR missile---need I say more.

 

[H2O3C4Nitrogen]

Hi,

My apologies---that I could not make any sense for you in my post regarding the M2K.

The protocol is only a SLAVE to the range of your BVR missile---need I say more.

F-16 is by far a better platform than the M2K so why to put money on something lees good and expensive as well.
And secondly the Protocol is followed strictly , Both Pakistan and India maintain a buffer zone of 10Km from there mutual border , If a plane enters this bufer Zone and gets detected , It is immediately contacted over radio or is escorted/chased back to its territory.Over the years large number of incursions occurred mostly due to Bad Weather and Navigational erors.
Quite Frankly i am still confused that an Indian Su30 along with a M2K just flew right through Pakistani Airspace and there was nothing done , can you back this up with some sources. I am sure that during Peace Time if an enemy plan enters the territory , its not shot down provided theres a Peace Time Engagement Laws enforced by both sides and there are no such violations of Cease Fire btw the ground Troops as well.

 

[Donatello]

MastanK,

I agree with some of your analysis of the post-Mumbai drama, but i disagree with the fact that PAF didn't do or couldn't do anything about MKIs and Mirage.

If Indians were so capable, they would have very easily launched a strike and gotten away with it, like the Atlantique incident that you yourself quoted.

The problem is, any plane shot down at that altitude, might litter both sides of border with wreckage. With the terrorist label Pakistan had, and India with it's global bargaining position, the situation could have been a lot more worse.


Besides, there is nothing that PAF cannot intercept the MKI. I appreciate the beauty of the plane, and in fact as an avid plane enthusiast, i used to love the old Migs and Sukhois more than American beasty flying metal. However, MKI seems a bit too overrated, the day when it does have a credible record to back up it's reputation, i will take my words back. But just throwing in the argument that PAF couldn't do anything because it was the MKI they were up against, just doesn't make any sense.


No offense intended please.

 

[MastanKhan]

MastanK,

I agree with some of your analysis of the post-Mumbai drama, but i disagree with the fact that PAF didn't do or couldn't do anything about MKIs and Mirage.

If Indians were so capable, they would have very easily launched a strike and gotten away with it, like the Atlantique incident that you yourself quoted.

The problem is, any plane shot down at that altitude, might litter both sides of border with wreckage. With the terrorist label Pakistan had, and India with it's global bargaining position, the situation could have been a lot more worse.


Besides, there is nothing that PAF cannot intercept the MKI. I appreciate the beauty of the plane, and in fact as an avid plane enthusiast, i used to love the old Migs and Sukhois more than American beasty flying metal. However, MKI seems a bit too overrated, the day when it does have a credible record to back up it's reputation, i will take my words back. But just throwing in the argument that PAF couldn't do anything because it was the MKI they were up against, just doesn't make any sense.


No offense intended please.

Hi,

There is no offence in your post but a very valid point---forget about the SU 30 the plane----the plane is deceptive---it has a big RCS----it has other issues---this and that----what posters are not reading is what big teeth this plane has----.

As a matter of fact 8 of them---if wishes could be horses---we would all be flying chariots made of gold in a world full of illusion---.

 

[Abu Zolfiqar]

^and why was the F-18 refused by the PAF - twin-engines perhaps?

2 engined, which adds to the main issue

(cost prohibitive)