F 18 offer to PAF in the 80's

[MastanKhan]

Hi,

Our respectable member Pshamim has excavated something that was buried real real deep. According to him F 18 the land version was offered to the paf in the 80's---paf refused it---not excavated but eleased the info.

And who was the person involved in the offer---pshamim himself. I can only say---wow---totally unpredictable and unbelievable news----it just came from nowhere and hit it right in the flanks.

Pshamim---thanks for letting us know.

 

[EagleEyes]

The notion that top aircrafts are not offered to the PAF is false. It is something that is thrown around by the Indian trolls who love to assume everything. If you have the money to spend..you will get it. But whats the point? Spend that in your own defence industry and reap the benefits.

 

[PAFAce]

Mr MastanKhan, what kind of torture did you have to commit to get this bit of information? Definitely juicy, thanks for sharing.

The notion that top aircrafts are not offered to the PAF is false.

Indeed. Including this bit of news, the list of "high-end" fighter aircraft that the PAF has considered/evaluated goes something like this:
F/A-18 Hornet
JAS-39 Grippen
Su-27 Flanker
Mirage-2000

MastanKhan, your next mission would be to extract info regarding the rumored MiG-29s offered in the 1990s (from Ukraine, I believe). Also, I am certain that PAF pilots have had hours in the Block 60 F-16s the UAEAF operates. That only leaves the Rafale and the Eurofighter as the only platforms in the MMRCA/IAF that we haven't evaluated.

 

[fatman17]

^and why was the F-18 refused by the PAF - twin-engines perhaps?

 

[PAFAce]

^and why was the F-18 refused by the PAF - twin-engines perhaps?

Sir, I can only speculate. Twin-engines would probably have been one consideration, cost-per-plane would have been another, but overall, the F/A-18, even the Air Force variant, was over-designed for Air Force purposes. From what I've read, the YF-16 consistently proved to be slightly better than the YF-17 Cobra (the pre-F-18 prototype) during the Light Weight Fighter program's fly-off in almost all requirements categories. In close combat, it was a one-sided affair all the way in favor of the YF-16, as it was designed to be an uncompromising air-superiority fighter (not an MRCA).

Overall, I just think the PAF studied their requirements and selected the better fighter for the needs. That should not take anything away from the F/A-18.

PDF member Santro claims that the PAF has evaluated the Eurofighter as well. I have asked him for a direct link to the source, if available.

Santro
In regards to your post in the F-18 offer to PAF in the 80's. I cannot comment on the Rafale but I am certain about the PAF evaluation of the Typhoon.
source: PAF artist Hussaini.

Update
Regarding the source of the Eurofighter information.

Santro
I heard it in person..but I remember vaguely that he has drawn a painting of the typhoon during that time in his "PAF over the years" book..either the original or the reprint.
Unfortunately I don't own the book so I cant confirm it.

Mr. MastanKhan, if it's not too much trouble, can you inquire about the Eurofighter as well?

 

[araz]

MastanKhan, your next mission would be to extract info regarding the rumored MiG-29s offered in the 1990s (from Ukraine, I believe). Also, I am certain that PAF pilots have had hours in the Block 60 F-16s the UAEAF operates. That only leaves the Rafale and the Eurofighter as the only platforms in the MMRCA/IAF that we haven't evaluated.

If I may fill you in on the f16 Block 60 and its access to Pakistan. Someone I know very well who was instrumental in designing the complex that currently houses the Bl.60 told me that the US specifically barred the PAf personnel from going to the complex. i dont want to go into the details on an open forum , but to the best of my knowledge PAF has not had access to Bl60s
We have evaluated the rafale extensively and if my memory serves me right it was sent to Pakistan for evaluation(although dont quote me on this). We have also evaluated the EF. Both machines were deemed too expensive for the PAf to have and to operate. Additionally EF would have the same problems as F16s with regards to sanctions. Believe it or not Rafale is close to the heart of many in PAF
Araz

 

[MastanKhan]

Hi,

Regardless which of the american planes the paf went for in the 80's----only if it would have turned around and snagged a couple to sqdrns of mirage 2k's at that time---would have totally taken out india out of the european market---.

At that time, the u s would not have sold them any equipment---only mirage 2k was something that came real close to the F 16---the iaf would have been left stranded for a quality aircraft for a long time----now that truly would have been a strategic coupe de grace----that reqd vision.

The purpose of the original post was and as the webby stated----there was no dearth of the sale of fighter aircraft to paf---some of these problems were created by some of our own.

 

[fatman17]

sqdrns of mirage 2k's at that time

MK - the experience of countries using mirage MK2 is "mixed" as best - recently Taiwan has stated that it will withdraw its MK2s because of "high maintenance costs and limited capabilities of the a/c" - it some how co-relates to the famous QatarAF decision to sell-off their MK2 and it seems that India has also decided not to go for "full upgrades" of their MK2s. so there are issues with this type.

 

[araz]

Hi,

Regardless which of the american planes the paf went for in the 80's----only if it would have turned around and snagged a couple to sqdrns of mirage 2k's at that time---would have totally taken out india out of the european market---.

At that time, the u s would not have sold them any equipment---only mirage 2k was something that came real close to the F 16---the iaf would have been left stranded for a quality aircraft for a long time----now that truly would have been a strategic coupe de grace----that reqd vision.

The purpose of the original post was and as the webby stated----there was no dearth of the sale of fighter aircraft to paf---some of these problems were created by some of our own.

Man you harp the same tune. M2K was evaluated and then the deal scuppered because of Mr 10%. Our very own Muradk was closely involved and had to face hardships due to his principled stance. 2 people, MuradK and Pshamim have already said that after the added commission, the deal became too expensive and after the Benazir government was scuppered PAF made another enquiry but the french raised the price even more.
However, you may yet see M2K in PAF livery if certain people are to be believed.Personally I think it is time we moved on. But to what remains an unanswered question. Fatmans arguments are cogent and the planes engine is not the best in the world.
Araz

 

[MastanKhan]

Man you harp the same tune. M2K was evaluated and then the deal scuppered because of Mr 10%. Our very own Muradk was closely involved and had to face hardships due to his principled stance. 2 people, MuradK and Pshamim have already said that after the added commission, the deal became too expensive and after the Benazir government was scuppered PAF made another enquiry but the french raised the price even more.
However, you may yet see M2K in PAF livery if certain people are to be believed.Personally I think it is time we moved on. But to what remains an unanswered question. Fatmans arguments are cogent and the planes engine is not the best in the world.
Araz

Hi Araz,

You started it----

You are missing the time period---I am not talking about the late 80's early 90's deal---I am talking about 83---85---pak already has the F 16's. Now what else can they do to throw a monkey wrench in india's planning----instead of going for another 28 planes from GD---they could have opted for the M2k in 83-84 and made the ultimate coupe de grace on IAF---.

IAF would have been cut off from a reliable fighter intercepter aircraft of european origin----so here I am talking about a different time frame---I am talking about the time during Zia's regime.

 

[PAFAce]

With regards to what MastanKhan has said above, here are my views:

I have long held the opinion that Pakistan did not use it's "close relations" with the US in the 80s to get close to European nations, especially in terms of defence. Had we taken the opportunity to increase trade and defence agreements with European nations, such as France, Germany, Britain and Sweden, we would not feel so "let down" by West. We know for a fact that these countries, with the exception of Sweden probably, would have readily maintained defence relations with us despite US pressures, especially France and Germany.

I expressed this concern to an Indian board member a few weeks ago, in reply to a specific question regarding Pakistan's answer to the MMRCA. India, I believe, is not going to repeat out mistakes. Already in the MMRCA contest, European platforms seem to be the favourites. They are using warm relations with the US and Russia to increase trade with most defence-industries around the world, which will help them a lot in the long run.

Of course, we haven't completely missed the boat. We know the French will sell anything for a price. With the Germans, we will need a pretty strong lobby, but it's possible. Even Russia, I believe, will be open to defence relations with Pakistan for the right price (maybe through China), especially if India chooses to o the Western route for the MMRCA. Before any of this becomes possible, however, we will have to strengthen our economy, something that is only a dream right now. France is not China, they won't be so "understanding" of our economic problems.

 

[araz]

Hi Araz,

You started it----

You are missing the time period---I am not talking about the late 80's early 90's deal---I am talking about 83---85---pak already has the F 16's. Now what else can they do to throw a monkey wrench in india's planning----instead of going for another 28 planes from GD---they could have opted for the M2k in 83-84 and made the ultimate coupe de grace on IAF---.

IAF would have been cut off from a reliable fighter intercepter aircraft of european origin----so here I am talking about a different time frame---I am talking about the time during Zia's regime.

MASTAN KHAN
Brother apologies if you took it to heart. i think I know you well enough by now to have a friendly joust with you. Apologies again for misinterpreting the dates. I see your point. However, if i remember correctly, PAF earlier had even in the 80s evaluated the M2K.At that time they had certain concerns mainly regarding the radar (if I remember correctly) and a couple of other issues and so the deal did not go through. The other factor may well have been financial and the only reason we went for F16s was because we were being given soft loans for the purpose. It is probably always the case with PAF that it might want something but it also has to consider the needs of the other services.navy needed a lot of input and yet we went for second hand junk from US on lease rather than type23s which would have kept us going till today. Perhaps MuradK or Xman or some other PAF expert may clarify the situation for us.
Kind regards
Araz

 

[MastanKhan]

Hi,

Pak screwed up europe one more time after 9/11---when they cancelled already leading purchase of air bus and went for a boeing---.

You know why boeing---first to please u s of a---boeing and then our ceo thought that we would fly direct to the u s from pak---we will get to make some boeing parts---guess what---nobody asked home land security if they would allow pak planes to fly direct to the u s---. After the delivery we found out---no we could not---a big fiasco---european conglomerates were hoping mad at pak---they saying---we always help you in your time of need---when we need your support, you shove it right up the guzzoo.

The fiascos of the pak govt and millitary officials can be written in the red blood ink of ordinary pakistanis and there will be reams full of it.

In any purchase, timing is everything---there is no clue of timing---there is no perception of the ripple effect---what is going to happen tomorrow.

Which means---when you make your decision today---you go to sleep and wake up tomorrow---and when you have the time to think with a cool head and a honest heart to ask the question---what I did---was it right---or was it wrong---looking at the results---not one time it can be said---that they were right----

What does that mean then----THIS QUESTION MUST BE ASKED---because the process is continuously flawed---every single time---only every single major purchase. There seems to be an inherent dishonesty some place some where in our analysis.

 

[MastanKhan]

Araz,

My friend, it was one of those---we will eat grass moments in our history---. The capability of mirage 2k---greece has proved otherwise against the turks---.

The question is---lesser capability of the radar---lesser maneuverability---but in reference to what, in relation to whom----on a scale of 1---10---where the F 16 was a 10 and the mirage would be 8.75 to 9.5---and indian aircraft of that time were 4---6, what difference that could have made---none whatsoever.

We were so deep in our pleasurable ecstacy of owning the F 16, we gave the oppurtunity to our rival to go get the next best thing available on the market.

Truthfully, the pakistani mirage 3's and 5 would have taken over the russian intrusions on the northern front in the 80's---but pak only sent out the less capable F6's to intercept the russians and they would fly away---.

That thing I have never been able to understand, why were the mirage's not used to intercept the russian / afghan planes in the 80's. The mirage are mach 2---they have atoa missiles to do the job---the israelis used them very successfully against the arabs---we claim that we are better than the israeli pilots---so where lies the deception.

To me it looks like the paks---set up the u s of a for the sale of F 16's---a plane that was really not needed in the first place----america would never have sold F 16 to india---we had the oppurtunity of getting assembly line for the mirage F 1's in the 70's---we let it roll by---our love affair with the F 16 has literally doomed our relationship with the u s of a---.

 

[fatman17]

Pak screwed up europe one more time after 9/11---when they cancelled already leading purchase of air bus and went for a boeing---.

MK its about funding - FMS allows pakistan to purchase US weapons, it is not available anywhere else - ditto for preference of Boeing over Airbus , EXIM bank financed it. now pakistan has requested for China to offer a FMS type of financing for arms purchases and lets see what our chinese friends say about it.

we dont have HARD cash!!!