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Extreme Flood in Indus tributaries - 100s Die

Punjab is a plain land, or no dams can be build on chenab etc ..... are all just excuses for not doing anything for the common man and fooling him again and again.

You are correct that flood mitigation plans can indeed be implemented, but I do not see them including dams or lakes in Punjab.

Please also refer to the posts of @Syed.Ali.Haider above. He has also got the drift of the problem and the nature of the solution.

Like I have said before, flood control is certainly possible, but it will likely not include dams or lakes in Punjab.
 
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Them helicopter , ....oh wait yes , you know where I was going before I even wrote a word
 
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View attachment 47766

For those of you who are discussing the possibility of lake for flood control, this is the possible site that I have demarcated with blue outline. If you notice, this area is bounded by Head Marala Barrage in the north, large canal that leads to Gujranwala and then to Ravi (on Head Baloki) as well as Sialkot airport on East and South East respectively, and River Chenab on the West.

As you can see, this is very rich agricultural land with dozens of villages. I would think that the cost of land would be around Rs. 2 million per acre. for this project, at least 100,000 acres might be required. That means an expense of 200 Billion rupees only to acquire land. This is quite prohibitive, because the actual implementation would cost much more than that. Added to this hassle would be loss of prime agricultural land.

This is not a feasible project. Its no use thinking about it.


What do you want them to do? Drink it all before it gets to Pakistan? If they build dams, we will have problem with it, if they do not build dam, people like you complain. What do you suggest they should do when a Himalayan river suddenly rises because of persistent rain?


That is some high end Research gives good indication of problem
View attachment 47766

For those of you who are discussing the possibility of lake for flood control, this is the possible site that I have demarcated with blue outline. If you notice, this area is bounded by Head Marala Barrage in the north, large canal that leads to Gujranwala and then to Ravi (on Head Baloki) as well as Sialkot airport on East and South East respectively, and River Chenab on the West.

As you can see, this is very rich agricultural land with dozens of villages. I would think that the cost of land would be around Rs. 2 million per acre. for this project, at least 100,000 acres might be required. That means an expense of 200 Billion rupees only to acquire land. This is quite prohibitive, because the actual implementation would cost much more than that. Added to this hassle would be loss of prime agricultural land.

This is not a feasible project. Its no use thinking about it.



What do you want them to do? Drink it all before it gets to Pakistan? If they build dams, we will have problem with it, if they do not build dam, people like you complain. What do you suggest they should do when a Himalayan river suddenly rises because of persistent rain?


Drinking is certainly not an option

I propose underground Tunnels for channeling the water, should be simple to do by Pakistani Engineering companies

500 Engineers, 10,000 Low Salary workers and you build a under ground water transport

Who said we need to destroy Agricultural Land above

Let the water channel run under the ground

Valentine_Cave.JPG


9253257-large.jpg


50-60 of these permanent lines underground, drain out the water and divert it to where it needs to be barran province that needs extra water, let a Lake form there

underground-sewage-pipes-500x500.jpg


Build a channel underground to divert water to Deserts of Baluchistan


Link it from Lahore to North of Baluchistan and then just release water there to create a Lake

Take water to the Musa Khel or Barkhan or Dera Bugti and create a artificial Lake
for cattle or just promoting water supply

balochistan-map-httpcdn.criticalppp.comwp-contentuploads201011balochistan-map1.jpg.jpg



Why destroy prime agricultural land in Punjab ? Makes no sense

Move water to Barren land where it can help irrigate plant life


Yep it looks like this place needs a lake
264338_463781830311954_909670905_n.jpg
 
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Army has established 75 relief camps & 35 medical camps in Gujranwala Division. Aviation Corps continues rescue Ops. :pakistan:
 
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Besides ground troops, 325 boats and 5 helicopters have been employed for rescue and relief activities.
Since start of relief operation, army has rescued more than 17,000 stranded people to safer places.
Flood affectees are being provided food items, shelters and medical aid in these camps.
In Gujranwala division, army has established 54 relief camps & 73 mobile medical camps.
 
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50-60 of these permanent lines underground, drain out the water and divert it to where it needs to be barran province that needs extra water, let a Lake form there

Any idea about the costs of what you propose, Sir?
 
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Pakistan right now does not have the resources to make tunnels or make other fancy projects. Most people writing on this issue do not have the understanding of hydrology.

For dams there is no site on Chenab.

I doubt if we can engineer a lake that can absorb even 1/5 of such a flood.

We already have a canal network that transports water to Ravi, Sulej, etc.... and we already use canal water to irrigate regions that are water-scarce. Places like Toba Tek Singh, Muzaffargarh, Rahim Yar Khan, Vehari, Burewala, Bahawalnagar, and many other places can not sustain agriculture on their own. It is only our canal network that provides water to make these arid / semi-arid areas green and productive. British did that more than a century ago.

This canal network already absorbs some flood water and acts as a shock-absorber of sorts. But as a canal carries away 20,000 cusecs of water, there is still plenty left to cause devastation.

The idea of levees is also problematic for the sheer amount of silt that Himalayan streams carry. Over time these levees will cause super floods when they break, once the level of rivers rises by silt deposition. Chinese have had this experience. River Huage He is called 'The sorrow of China' because of high silt content. Chinese would build levees which would break down once in a generation and caused massive flooding and loss of life.

In my view, we should be able to work with Indians and have an extensive warning system and conduct yearly drills. We can not prevent floods. The best we can hope for is to disallow population concentration in flood plains. The government can spend a few billions to implement a system, part of which can be implemented on self-help basis.

It is an enduring cause of concern that short-term thinking on behalf of people is the greatest danger to themselves. Our governments do not have enough funds to enable effective mechanism to enforce legislation. To give an appropriate example, I saw the 1988 flood in Ravi. It was a massive flood. Since then many people have constructed buildings and structures over the dry flood channels that only come into play when there is a big flood. Government can not do everything on its own. People must take responsibility.

It is both tragic and funny when I see people blasting the government just because their favorite politician did not win elections. With this level of intellectual effort, nothing can ever be done right.

I think Punjab Information Technology Board is working on creating some application for better flood awareness. I can envision a mass SMS going out to residents of villages located in Flood Plains warning of impending disaster.
 
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Tomorrow morning, Soldiers of PAK ARMY will be establishing relief camps in flood hit areas, as usual, & Parliamentarians will be bashing them, as usual in National Parliament.

Please share all the Flood activities and Military's Relief efforts on this Thread.

‮پاکستان‬ - ‭BBC Urdu‬ - ‮پنجاب میں طوفانی بارشیں 29 ہلاک، فوج الرٹ‬

India has warned Pakistan that it will release Flood water to Pakistan Tonight.

Flood warning issued as water level in rivers rises dangerously, India alerts Pakistan | Pakistan | Dunya News

Pakistan braces for more killer monsoon rain - The Standard

Due to torrential rains, army troops directed to undertake relief operations in Sialkot,Narowal,Head Marala,Wazirabad & Jalalpur Jattan. DG ISPR

Army put on high alert to deal with flood situation across Kashmir and Punjab. DG ISPR

The devastation brought by the floods is simply indescribable. It brings much grief to read that many homes and lives have been destroyed in these floods. According to various sources, several thousand homes have collapsed and at least 200 people have died in Pakistan. The pictures clearly depict the pain and suffering of all those who have been affected by the floods. Our thoughts and prayers go out to everyone who has been impacted by the floods. We sincerely hope that they will find the strength to deal with this tragedy.

Ali Khan
Digital Engagement Team, USCENTCOM
 
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It is an enduring cause of concern that short-term thinking on behalf of people is the greatest danger to themselves. Our governments do not have enough funds to enable effective mechanism to enforce legislation. To give an appropriate example, I saw the 1988 flood in Ravi. It was a massive flood. Since then many people have constructed buildings and structures over the dry flood channels that only come into play when there is a big flood. Government can not do everything on its own. People must take responsibility.

As I have pointed out, dealing with such floods will take everyone playing their part, starting with the people and going up all the way to the top. Which is also why we have not improved anything in this regard, and likely will not either, but that is another story.
 
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Some very good advice here:

Politics vs floods: The tide must turn - Blogs - DAWN.COM

Politics vs floods: The tide must turn
By Sarmad Palijo

So far the floods in Kashmir and Punjab have claimed more than 200 lives, displacing tens of thousands of people. Six hundred villages in the Gujranwala and Sialkot regions were hit on Sunday, which is a loss greater than what’s caused by most calamities that shock the world today.

In 2010, I was in Thatta when almost a million displaced people moved up to the historic Makli Hills. I will never forget the look on the blank faces of the women and children living among Makli’s historic graves.

I shudder to think of our people in Kashmir and Punjab; how they must be lying awake at night, while a colossal body of water rages through their homes, shattering sturdy walls as much as fragile hopes and dreams.

In 2010, the country stood united and acted as one along with our army, navy and air force. Millions were moved out of harm’s way in a matter of days, while millions other stood like an impenetrable wall to shelter and support total strangers in need.

Today, however, I fear that even though the floods may be (and hopefully) smaller than 2010, we might be standing further away from each other.

Each one of us is holding a different flag.

As I write these lines, watching our people wading through waist-deep water full of debris, dead animals and diseases is heartbreaking. I cannot begin to imagine how it must feel to leave your lives behind in a moment’s notice.


If there is a power outage even for a day, we feel the hands of discomfort caressing our very soul. Yet for our flood affected brothers and sister, misery must be their only companion – a lifestyle.

There is much to be done to help, we have done it before and our muscle memory will help us do it again.

But first, we must unite.

We must set aside all the anger we have against the ‘other’ camp and come together. It is surely easier said than done in this day of deep partisanship, but there is no other way.


Pakistan, in recent days, has been battered by constant bad news. The Taliban; the economy; the political crisis and now super floods. Still, let’s not forget it is also the land of Malala’s determination, young Aitzaz Hasan’s sacrifice and Abdul Sattar Edhi’s long and unending struggle.

Today, when even our IDPs – who have sacrificed the most for our well being – are ignored, we must not forget our duty to our people across the nation.

Let’s forget for a moment our provincial, political and ethnic differences. You can feel the pain of Kashmir as far away as Sindh. You can be a Punjabi and imagine what a Pashtun IDP is going through.

We’re all humans, and we suffer the same way. Let’s do what the human nature does best:

Empathize.


After the danger of the flood is over and our people have been saved, we can continue with our principled political disagreements; but let’s remind ourselves that we only disagree, in the first place, to help improve human conditions across Pakistan in the best way we can.



Sarmad Palijo is a Fellow at Edward S. Mason Program in Public Policy and Management at Harvard Kennedy School and a senior media executive based in Karachi.

He tweets @spalijo

The views expressed by this blogger and in the following reader comments do not necessarily reflect the views and policies of the Dawn Media Group.
 
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Some very good advice here:

Politics vs floods: The tide must turn - Blogs - DAWN.COM

Politics vs floods: The tide must turn
By Sarmad Palijo

So far the floods in Kashmir and Punjab have claimed more than 200 lives, displacing tens of thousands of people. Six hundred villages in the Gujranwala and Sialkot regions were hit on Sunday, which is a loss greater than what’s caused by most calamities that shock the world today.

In 2010, I was in Thatta when almost a million displaced people moved up to the historic Makli Hills. I will never forget the look on the blank faces of the women and children living among Makli’s historic graves.

I shudder to think of our people in Kashmir and Punjab; how they must be lying awake at night, while a colossal body of water rages through their homes, shattering sturdy walls as much as fragile hopes and dreams.

In 2010, the country stood united and acted as one along with our army, navy and air force. Millions were moved out of harm’s way in a matter of days, while millions other stood like an impenetrable wall to shelter and support total strangers in need.

Today, however, I fear that even though the floods may be (and hopefully) smaller than 2010, we might be standing further away from each other.

Each one of us is holding a different flag.

As I write these lines, watching our people wading through waist-deep water full of debris, dead animals and diseases is heartbreaking. I cannot begin to imagine how it must feel to leave your lives behind in a moment’s notice.


If there is a power outage even for a day, we feel the hands of discomfort caressing our very soul. Yet for our flood affected brothers and sister, misery must be their only companion – a lifestyle.

There is much to be done to help, we have done it before and our muscle memory will help us do it again.

But first, we must unite.

We must set aside all the anger we have against the ‘other’ camp and come together. It is surely easier said than done in this day of deep partisanship, but there is no other way.


Pakistan, in recent days, has been battered by constant bad news. The Taliban; the economy; the political crisis and now super floods. Still, let’s not forget it is also the land of Malala’s determination, young Aitzaz Hasan’s sacrifice and Abdul Sattar Edhi’s long and unending struggle.

Today, when even our IDPs – who have sacrificed the most for our well being – are ignored, we must not forget our duty to our people across the nation.

Let’s forget for a moment our provincial, political and ethnic differences. You can feel the pain of Kashmir as far away as Sindh. You can be a Punjabi and imagine what a Pashtun IDP is going through.

We’re all humans, and we suffer the same way. Let’s do what the human nature does best:

Empathize.


After the danger of the flood is over and our people have been saved, we can continue with our principled political disagreements; but let’s remind ourselves that we only disagree, in the first place, to help improve human conditions across Pakistan in the best way we can.



Sarmad Palijo is a Fellow at Edward S. Mason Program in Public Policy and Management at Harvard Kennedy School and a senior media executive based in Karachi.

He tweets @spalijo

The views expressed by this blogger and in the following reader comments do not necessarily reflect the views and policies of the Dawn Media Group.

Great Find @Syed.Ali.Haider - I am following @spalijo on twitter now. Interesting that it took someone from Sindh to point out the obvious. Human tragedies like this flood should obviously unite Pakistanis. I feel sorry that some Pakistanis feel the need to use a natural disaster for political purposes. Mercifully this thread is now free of politics - like it should be.
 
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This is negligence of our government. Isn't this??? Look the contradiction.

10494611_848636318500078_7229288340021468950_n.jpg



 
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Pakistan right now does not have the resources to make tunnels or make other fancy projects. Most people writing on this issue do not have the understanding of hydrology.

For dams there is no site on Chenab.

I doubt if we can engineer a lake that can absorb even 1/5 of such a flood.

We already have a canal network that transports water to Ravi, Sulej, etc.... and we already use canal water to irrigate regions that are water-scarce. Places like Toba Tek Singh, Muzaffargarh, Rahim Yar Khan, Vehari, Burewala, Bahawalnagar, and many other places can not sustain agriculture on their own. It is only our canal network that provides water to make these arid / semi-arid areas green and productive. British did that more than a century ago.

This canal network already absorbs some flood water and acts as a shock-absorber of sorts. But as a canal carries away 20,000 cusecs of water, there is still plenty left to cause devastation.

The idea of levees is also problematic for the sheer amount of silt that Himalayan streams carry. Over time these levees will cause super floods when they break, once the level of rivers rises by silt deposition. Chinese have had this experience. River Huage He is called 'The sorrow of China' because of high silt content. Chinese would build levees which would break down once in a generation and caused massive flooding and loss of life.

In my view, we should be able to work with Indians and have an extensive warning system and conduct yearly drills. We can not prevent floods. The best we can hope for is to disallow population concentration in flood plains. The government can spend a few billions to implement a system, part of which can be implemented on self-help basis.

It is an enduring cause of concern that short-term thinking on behalf of people is the greatest danger to themselves. Our governments do not have enough funds to enable effective mechanism to enforce legislation. To give an appropriate example, I saw the 1988 flood in Ravi. It was a massive flood. Since then many people have constructed buildings and structures over the dry flood channels that only come into play when there is a big flood. Government can not do everything on its own. People must take responsibility.

It is both tragic and funny when I see people blasting the government just because their favorite politician did not win elections. With this level of intellectual effort, nothing can ever be done right.

I think Punjab Information Technology Board is working on creating some application for better flood awareness. I can envision a mass SMS going out to residents of villages located in Flood Plains warning of impending disaster.

Comparing Yellow Rivers ancient dykes to the tech available today is flawed and don't we have plenty of desilting techniques available today.My educated guess is Indus basin doesn't carry the amount of silt the Yangtze or Yellow River carries (Yellow River is called Sorrow of China because of fixed cycle of floods and famines) .All you need is money and there are plenty of people out there who will sell and build you a cost effective solution.

There is already a mechanism in Place under which Pakistan is informed about the River discharge levels.
 
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