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Erdogan's Ergenekon "Victory"

can't you use a more simple English while you are talking to me as i couldn't understood what you were trying to say at your previous post.
I'm saying I can't evaluate whether my post was an "insult to Turkish people's intelligence" or not because I don't know enough about Turks and their education level.

I do know that the Turkish-language media is "closed" in the sense that much of the information available in the English-language media about the MM affair never crossed the language barrier to appear in Turkish-language publications.
 
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I do know that the Turkish-language media is "closed" in the sense that much of the information available in the English-language media about the MM affair never crossed the language barrier to appear in Turkish-language publications.

You can be right. But have can you explain, me ? I followed both Turkish media, Israeli Media and International media at that time. I was at the office when we learned about MM,our first reaction was pure rage. Then we learned about what is "Mavi marmara", what they were trying to achieve, why they get shot.... rage continued on.

I can't say that Turkish-Israele realations will never be repaired but I can say that incident left a huge wound in our relations.

Let's say Erdogan has plotted this incident. Why do you think that ? What would be in his profit ?
 
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You can be right. But have can you explain, me ?
I can "explain you" because as you are fluent in at least two languages, English and Turkish, you may not remember what information you got from which media. And your unbendable "rage" by the fact just discussed, that once a Turk's ire is raised over the injury of a countryman from a foreigner the details of the event don't seem to matter. I suppose that's especially true if these feelings initially took place in a group.

Then we learned about what is "Mavi marmara", what they were trying to achieve, why they get shot.... rage continued on.
What do you think they were trying to achieve? The blockade was and is legal: link Gazans were not then and are not now starving - shipments of food and medical supplies continued, save for disruptive border attacks and Hamas' own controls. The Mavi Marmara itself carried no humanitarian aid at all: link Whether Erdogan plotted it or not, the violent confrontation of the militants with Israelis was both intentional and pre-planned. As I review the materials, if the intent of the militants wasn't to kill Israelis outright, it was certainly to torture and maim them.

No, the purpose of the organizers wasn't "humanitarian" but to raise a stink with the hope of compelling the international community to pressure Israel into allowing shipments of weapons in to Gaza to further Hamas' program of religious domination and territorial conquest. If Erdogan knew then he may have realized how easily he could turn such a confrontation to his advantage.

I note one Turkish journalist wrote a book confirming the IDF's version of events: link

I can't say that Turkish-Israele realations will never be repaired but I can say that incident left a huge wound in our relations.
Erdogan seems intent on making sure the wound doesn't heal.

Let's say Erdogan has plotted this incident. Why do you think that ? What would be in his profit ?
If he did plot it he might have wanted better relations with Hamas and the P.A. and to establish some militant Islamic credentials. He also would have been taking unilateral action to encourage an ally to attack Turks, something that the Turkish military and citizenry might consider treasonous. To avoid the treason bit he must blame the Israelis.

If he didn't plot the violence but through ignorance or poor supervision set up the situation then he looks like an incompetent fool, doesn't he? And there's still the possibility of a treason charge. So again Erdogan must blame the Israelis.

Still, even before the MM affair Erdo was going out of his was to poison Turkish-Israeli relations. You might not have been aware of the insults and name-calling that issued from his mouth. So it's easier for me to assume he plotted the confrontation deliberately. Certainly you can't point to Erdogan and say that this is a man who worked hard to ease Israel-Turkish relations.
 
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I can "explain you" because as you are fluent in at least two languages, English and Turkish, you may not remember what information you got from which media. And your unbendable "rage" by the fact just discussed, that once a Turk's ire is raised over the injury of a countryman from a foreigner the details of the event don't seem to matter. I suppose that's especially true if these feelings initially took place in a group.

Mate, it is not simple as that... like let's say a Turk got killed by Israeli commandos while he was torturing a Israeli citizen. "I would say that fvcker deserved it, he is not my countrymen"

I mean it is not a unconditional support... Let me give you a good example.

http://www.defence.pk/forums/europe-russia/268317-turkish-shepherd-shot-dead-armenian-border-guards.html#post4588771

What do you think they were trying to achieve? The blockade was and is legal: link Gazans were not then and are not now starving - shipments of food and medical supplies continued, save for disruptive border attacks and Hamas' own controls. The Mavi Marmara itself carried no humanitarian aid at all: link Whether Erdogan plotted it or not, the violent confrontation of the militants with Israelis was both intentional and pre-planned. As I review the materials, if the intent of the militants wasn't to kill Israelis outright, it was certainly to torture and maim them.

No, the purpose of the organizers wasn't "humanitarian" but to raise a stink with the hope of compelling the international community to pressure Israel into allowing shipments of weapons in to Gaza to further Hamas' program of religious domination and territorial conquest. If Erdogan knew then he may have realized how easily he could turn such a confrontation to his advantage.

I note one Turkish journalist wrote a book confirming the IDF's version of events: link

You have point...I will stay neutral on this issue from now on.

If he did plot it he might have wanted better relations with Hamas and the P.A. and to establish some militant Islamic credentials. He also would have been taking unilateral action to encourage an ally to attack Turks, something that the Turkish military and citizenry might consider treasonous. To avoid the treason bit he must blame the Israelis.

If he didn't plot the violence but through ignorance or poor supervision set up the situation then he looks like an incompetent fool, doesn't he? And there's still the possibility of a treason charge. So again Erdogan must blame the Israelis.

Still, even before the MM affair Erdo was going out of his was to poison Turkish-Israeli relations. You might not have been aware of the insults and name-calling that issued from his mouth. So it's easier for me to assume he plotted the confrontation deliberately. Certainly you can't point to Erdogan and say that this is a man who worked hard to ease Israel-Turkish relations.

Sir, you stated the intentions of Erdogan.. Not his benefits from the acts that you stated. I'm trying to say "By poising the Israeli-Turkish relations, what would be his gain"

And I don't think he is thinking like "Death to Jews" style. He wouldn't gain points in internal politics. As he has no serious opposer and have %51 of the votes.
 
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Sir, you stated the intentions of Erdogan.. Not his benefits from the acts that you stated. I'm trying to say "By poising the Israeli-Turkish relations, what would be his gain"
By challenging the weapons blockade Erdo establishes himself as a "champion" of Islam. As I understand it, Islamo-fundies hold that the strongest challenger to non-Muslims should be their leader. Erdo could then gather these people, both external and internal, under his wing and create a force under his personal control to challenge Turkey's democratic institutions and/or extend his personal power abroad.

Isn't this the sort of thing Ataturk feared? Isn't that why Ataturk found it necessary to abolish the Caliphate in 1924?
 
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By challenging the weapons blockade Erdo establishes himself as a "champion" of Islam. As I understand it, Islamo-fundies hold that the strongest challenger to non-Muslims should be their leader. Erdo could then gather these people, both external and internal, under his wing and create a force under his personal control to challenge Turkey's democratic institutions and/or extend his personal power abroad.

Isn't this the sort of thing Ataturk feared? Isn't that why Ataturk found it necessary to abolish the Caliphate in 1924?

Sorry to bud in as uninvited guest. But Erdogan as the new Caliph?:lol:
 
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I see Solomon is busy spreading his poison again.

Instead giving him biased links to biased news agencies, why not just give him a link to the un reports ?
Explain also to the fellow why the Israeli government was against a independent research and why they destroyed all the recorded evidence by the passengers.

The act of the Israeli government at the aftermath of the flotilla incident was the same act a criminal would show trying to escape his verdict.
 
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Instead giving him biased links to biased news agencies, why not just give him a link to the un reports ?
Which report, the first one with which mandated that Israel was in the wrong and only sought evidence to condemn Israel and was eventually renounced by its own head, or the second one - the Palmer Report - the U.N. tried to suppress which backs up what Israel says and claims?

Explain also to the fellow why the Israeli government was against a independent research and why they destroyed all the recorded evidence by the passengers.
Go to the Elder of Ziyon website and do a search under "Mavi Marmara" and I think you'll find the answers there - though they may not be the answers you want they will nonetheless be consistent with facts and context.

Sorry to bud in as uninvited guest. But Erdogan as the new Caliph?:lol:
Why are you laughing? If Syria continues to self-destruct who is to say Erdo won't send in troops and be hailed as a liberator? Of course, to do that - to get the credit - he has to cow the military first...
 
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Why are you laughing? If Syria continues to self-destruct who is to say Erdo won't send in troops and be hailed as a liberator? Of course, to do that - to get the credit - he has to cow the military first...

As far as I can tell, Erdogan or Turkey will not get into this Shia-Sunni proxy war between Iran and GCC. And after Syria, the Shia-Sunni thing has possibility to spread in Iraq and Lebanon, so Syria is not end of story.
 
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Which report, the first one with which mandated that Israel was in the wrong and only sought evidence to condemn Israel and was eventually renounced by its own head, or the second one - the Palmer Report - the U.N. tried to suppress which backs up what Israel says and claims?

Go to the Elder of Ziyon website and do a search under "Mavi Marmara" and I think you'll find the answers there - though they may not be the answers you want they will nonetheless be consistent with facts and context.

Why are you laughing? If Syria continues to self-destruct who is to say Erdo won't send in troops and be hailed as a liberator? Of course, to do that - to get the credit - he has to cow the military first...

Give links to both of the reports :)

To be fairly honest, they don't differ from each other that much. The only difference is that the one uses a harsher language then the other one.
All though both of the reports came to the conclusion that İsrael destroyed evidence :)

Anyway why are you so obsessed with this? BiBi apologized and with that further demands of the Turkish government will be met by the İsraeli government, so there is no further need to keep digging up the past.

Your obsession is quiet revealing though. İ never imagined Erdo left that much of a mark on İsraelis.
 
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@Sinan mate you are talking to a clown. No matter what you say he will keep up with his same nonsense every chance he gets.
 
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By challenging the weapons blockade Erdo establishes himself as a "champion" of Islam. As I understand it, Islamo-fundies hold that the strongest challenger to non-Muslims should be their leader. Erdo could then gather these people, both external and internal, under his wing and create a force under his personal control to challenge Turkey's democratic institutions and/or extend his personal power abroad.

Mate that it is......stretching too far, i think. I mean if there were union between Islamic countries what you say would be reasonable. What you call is "Ummah" and its like dead from centuries ago.And Turkey's position is not suitable at the moment. Turkey should be far ahead of the other islamic countries to be the Head-Figure.



Isn't this the sort of thing Ataturk feared? Isn't that why Ataturk found it necessary to abolish the Caliphate in 1924?

Ataturk abolished the Caliphate to nullify Turkish People's allegiance to last Ottoman Sultan as we were in a transition period for Republic system.

@Sinan mate you are talking to a clown. No matter what you say he will keep up with his same nonsense every chance he gets.

I think he has some points. But not fully knowledgeable in Turkish affairs, Turkey, etc...
 
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This is not a victory; this is plainly fight between two sides; and The real loser is Turkey. when the akp loses the election; we will witness another court to judge the akp members and sentence them; and again the loser will be Turkey.

the sad point is that The Turkish army is presented as a criminal organisation; and some commanders of it are marked as terrorists whle the government is at the moment meeting with the real ones in cafes .

This period of thime will be remembered as dark period due to some wrong policies of Akp; and the consequences will be seen during the next 10-20 years; actually it has already started to be seen; for example, before the akp there had been no North ıraq peshmerge section OFFİCİALLY, but now there is one, and another one is at the moment is bein established in North syria; in a few days there will be a conference in North ıraq, to which separatist kurds in turkey and other kurds in ıraq, iran and syria will attend.


i will always repeat the same sentence: Mr. zero problem Davutoğlu is the worst of all.
 
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