Era of wars over, ready to resolve all issues with India: Pakistan

[Solomon2]

So you mean one must ignore the ground realities and just go for the solution...What kind of solution that would be????

One that could work, I think.

How about leading with an example???

The U.S. and Canada mostly demilitarized their border unilaterally (separately and without coordination) first, then formalized the situation through diplomacy. Many international agreements work that way.

a) Don't paint everyone with same brush..Your comment "you indians" is stupid...

How is it stupid? We were just discussing yesterday how India was a big proponent of the NPT but then at the last moment decided not to put its own pen to the paper.

Would you mind elaborating on what territories we have invaded for the purpose of expansion

Goa. I'll leave it to the Pakistanis, Bangladeshis, and Chinese to add to the list as they desire.

 

[Tamizhan]

Pakistan has not meddled in Kashmir since the 2002-03 tensions subsided, there are no terror camps based to train militants to attack India, see those are the stereotypes that I was talking about.
As for the second part, TOI and Jang's findings suggest otherwise. According to a poll held in India and Pakistan on whether the two countries should be on friendly terms or not. 55% Indians responded in affirmative as opposed to 72% Pakistanis.
Again, that's the stereotypes talking, to think that Pakistanis hate India and that it can't ever subside.


Aman ki Asha - A Peace initiative by Jang Group, Pakistan & Times of India

I would like to believe that Pakistan has not meddled since 2003. But then where are the militants coming from if not from Pakistan ? And not all camps have been dismantled. If Indian intelligence is to be believed there are still about 40 camps along the LoC.

And numbers can be misleading. The same poll says,

1)Approximately 40% hold Pakistan solely responsible for terror/ violence in the country.
2)90% consider Pakistan as a high/ moderate threat to India's well being.

Right or wrong after Mumbai episode, Pakistan's seriousness in dealing with India has to come to rest on how it treats Hafiz Sayed and Pakistan is not doing well on the front. Not to mention his regular public diatribes about nuking India, waging jihad etc.

The current Indian govt, especially MMS, is eager to go down in history with a peace making legacy but is unable to do because of Pakistan's intransigence in dealing with HS. MMS would actually even ignore that if it were upto him. But the public is strongly opposed to that and rightly so. If Pakistan has the sincerity to even come half the way, beyond mere rhetoric, this PM is the best one to solve the problem. BUt then Pakistan has its own public to deal with and I think the govt is afraid any punishment meted to HS would be seen as surrendering to India. So the status quo prevails.

Factually wrong...Siachen is neither lawfully ours nor theirs...The karachi as well as Shimla agreement both did not explain the area pretty well...Both sides have their own interpretations of "Northwards"...The way we feel our interpretation is right in the same token they believe theirs is correct...

This is an ex SSG commander, Brig(r) Jawed Hussain speaking ;

The fight for Siachen – The Express Tribune

The dispute revolves round the extension of the Line of Control (LOC) beyond a point on the Saltoro Range known by its map reference as NJ 9820420. The demarcated LOC ends at this point —“thence north to the glaciers” is what the Karachi agreement of 1949 states about the extension. According to the Indians, this meant that the LoC should extend northwards along the Saltoro Range up to Sia Kangri.

On the other hand, Pakistan’s stand is that beyond NJ 9820420, the LOC should extend eastward up to the Karakoram pass. Extending the LOC northwards would give the entire Siachen Glacier-Saltoro area to India, while extending it eastward would give it to Pakistan.

So I think Siachen does belong to India, de-facto and de-jure.

If you mean with respect to Siachen than Pakistan does not recognize the status quo because:

1) India will be in reach of Karakoram Highway.
2) 8 of our highest peaks will be within Indian reach.

Factually wrong.

Siachen poses no threat whatsoever to the KKH which is farther north-west.

So it's a strategic issue for us. If India withdraws to pre-84 boundaries(if they do), then Pakistan is determined to withdraw all troops and a small observer team of Indian and Pakistani soldiers will inhabit the base camps.

After Kargil you cant fault India for the trust deficit.

 

[deckingraj]

One that could work, I think.

Exactly...how you reach a workable solution if you ignore the ground realities???

The U.S. and Canada mostly demilitarized their border unilaterally (separately and without coordination) first, then formalized the situation through diplomacy. Many international agreements work that way.

Now you are comparing apples and oranges...As said after a long time some serious work has gone on CBM's...A request that India had been making for quiet some time....There is lot of trust deficit at the moment and whatever you are suggesting is not going to work at the moment....Also i lack knowledge in this subject but if you can then do clarify - when they demilitarized their borders were they clear from where they are demilitarizing and till where???

How is it stupid? We were just discussing yesterday how India was a big proponent of the NPT but then at the last moment decided not to put its own pen to the paper.

It is stupid because you are painting everyone with the same brush....My comments represent me and not every Indian...Please let's not make each other explain points that even a kindergarden kid can understand...Secondly there are some serious flaws in NPT which is what is keeping us from signing it...Having said that the idea is not wrong....but it is discussion for some other thread...For now let's focus on the subject.

Goa. I'll leave it to the Paksitanis, Bangladeshis, and Chinese to add to the list as they desire.

I did not get it...May be its lack of my knowledge...Can you elaborate on how Goa was invaded for purpose of expansion...b/w how was Goa someone else land??? Also the point has been raised by you...so relying on Paksitani's, Bangladeshis and Chinese is not right...Either don't make a point or in case you do then onus is on you to explain it.

 

[Tamizhan]

Goa. I'll leave it to the Pakistanis, Bangladeshis, and Chinese to add to the list as they desire.

Whoa. Goa was a colonial possession in India and had been forever an integral part of Indian civilization. The age of colonialism was over and we gave them a chance to peacefully vacate the territory and go back to their home in Europe. They refused and we had to take the action

 

[deckingraj]

This is an ex SSG commander, Brig(r) Jawed Hussain speaking ;

The fight for Siachen – The Express Tribune
So I think Siachen does belong to India, de-facto and de-jure.

Siachen belongs to us as per our interpretation of the word "Northwards"...There is no clear demarcation and thus reason for different interpretation....Once you have this confusion you cannot claim it to be lawfully ours...This statement has been fed to us but unfortunately it is wrong.....Ideally Siachen should have been left alone but then Pakistan is equally at fault of the present mess we all are in...

 

[AbhijitSingh]

Siachen belongs to us as per our interpretation of the word "Northwards"...There is no clear demarcation and thus reason for different interpretation....Once you have this confusion you cannot claim it to be lawfully ours...This statement has been fed to us but unfortunately it is wrong.....Ideally Siachen should have been left alone but then Pakistan is equally at fault of the present mess we all are in...

Kind of representative of every issue between India and Pakistan

 

[Tamizhan]

Siachen belongs to us as per our interpretation of the word "Northwards"...There is no clear demarcation and thus reason for different interpretation....Once you have this confusion you cannot claim it to be lawfully ours...This statement has been fed to us but unfortunately it is wrong.....Ideally Siachen should have been left alone but then Pakistan is equally at fault of the present mess we all are in...

It is our interpretation mate. Jawed hussain is a Pakistani and not an Indian.

And pray tell me , however interpretation be, how can a glacier become a pass as is according to Pakistan's claim line which extends upto Karakoram Pass ?

But anyhow there is no use arguing about it as Indian Army and even a section of polity is determined that there will be no climbing down unless the AGPL is authenticated and agreed upon.

 

[deckingraj]

Kind of representative of every issue between India and Pakistan

Exactly...you don't clap with one hand...the issue is we all are indifferent to the mistakes committed at our end but do more then needed to point fingers...Once we understand that both the parties are at fault in one way or another then it would be far more easy to bring in a workable solution...

It is our interpretation mate. Jawed hussain is a Pakistani and not an Indian.

Doesn't make an iota of difference if he is an India/pakistani/alien....It is just his interpretation....

And pray tell me , however interpretation be, how can a glacier become a pass as is according to Pakistan's claim line which extends upto Karakoram Pass ?

bcoz the document that you have in your possession doesn't clearly explain it...Once you have a weak document then everyone is entitled to have his/her own interpretation...that's why i am debating on your "lawfully ours" claim....

But anyhow there is no use arguing about it as Indian Army and even a section of polity is determined that there will be no climbing down unless the AGPL is authenticated and agreed upon.

I have no problems with that...In fact i support it full-heartedly

 

[Tamizhan]

bcoz the document that you have in your possession doesn't clearly explain it...Once you have a weak document then everyone is entitled to have his/her own interpretation...that's why i am debating on your "lawfully ours" claim....

Again, interpretation is , for example if a river forms the border, then which bank of the river is the border varies according to interpretation. But a river cannot become a forest depending on interpretation.

KKPass which Pakistan claims is no where even near to the glaciers. Whatever be the interpretation, that is just untenable.

 

[Solomon2]

Exactly...how you reach a workable solution if you ignore the ground realities???

Through a series of small confidence-building measures.

As said after a long time some serious work has gone on CBM's...A request that India had been making for quiet some time...

I've always thought the best CBM's are the public ones; those are the ones that neuter the hot-heads.

when they demilitarized their borders were they clear from where they are demilitarizing and till when???

The lack of troops and the de-emphasized importance of border crossings was enough. The recognition that competing fleets of warships on the Great Lakes would be expensive, unnecessarily provocative, and useless finally made a formal agreement imperative.

India and Pakistan are way too sensitive by comparison, just look at the show at Wagah, nothing elegant like the redcoats but two teams of humans ridiculously devolved into peacocks:

(O.K., they did put a stop the goosestepping, but only because of the injuries.)

I did not get it...May be its lack of my knowledge...Can you elaborate on how Goa was invaded -

It was under Portugeuse rule for hundreds of years. The U.N. Trusteeship Council would probably have transferred it to India eventually, but India preferred conquest instead. India's action ruined the U.N.'s system of peaceful arbitration of such disputes and thus created a gunpowder keg in Kashmir that Pakistan was soon to light and probably encouraged the Chinese attack before that (the sparseness of period Chinese records from this period does make this claim uncertain but it is plausible.)

the point has been raised by you...so relying on Paksitani's, Bangladeshis and Chinese is not right...

The one example I brought up was a sufficient answer but I didn't want India's neighbors to feel shut out.

 

[deckingraj]

Again, interpretation is , for example if a river forms the border, then which bank of the river is the border varies according to interpretation. But a river cannot become a forest depending on interpretation.

KKPass which Pakistan claims is no where even near to the glaciers. Whatever be the interpretation, that is just untenable.

You are right...A river cannot become a forest....But who owns the river??? One side, both sides??? If as per my interpretation border starts at your side then i own the river.....However if there is no clear demarcation then both sides can claim that the border starts from the other side of the river...b/w if what you are saying is so obvious then i am still not sure why is this not part of the document??? Again please note that i am only challenging "lawfully ours" clause....

 

[Abhishek_]

i don't see the reason why you guys are arguing. India has made its stance pretty clear. the decision is pakistan's to make

 

[AbhijitSingh]

India and Pakistan are way too sensitive by comparison, just look at the show at Wagah, nothing elegant like the redcoats but two teams of humans ridiculously devolved into peacocks:

Dont knock it till you have seen it, in person..

 

[Tamizhan]

You are right...A river cannot become a forest....But who owns the river??? One side, both sides??? If as per my interpretation border starts at your side then i own the river.....However if there is no clear demarcation then both sides can claim that the border starts from the other side of the river...b/w if what you are saying is so obvious then i am still not sure why is this not part of the document??? Again please note that i am only challenging "lawfully ours" clause....

But according to the wordings itself the LoC extends North to the glaciers, not to the pass. So interpretations may be limited to which part of Siachen belongs to whom and not the Pakistani claim of just extending to the KKP which is nowhere even near the glacier.

Anyway as I previously said there is no use arguing over this as it is finally upto Pakistanis to decide if both sides demilitarize or not.

 

[deckingraj]

Through a series of small confidence-building measures. I've always thought the best CBM's are the public ones; those are the ones that neuter the hot-heads.

Well we are already doing that...then what is the fuss about???

The lack of troops and the de-emphasized importance of border crossings was enough. The recognition that competing fleets of warships on the Great Lakes would be expensive, unnecessarily provocative, and useless finally made a formal agreement imperative.

You did not answer the question...They moved from where to where??? In sicahen we don't know who will move from where to where...because there is no such demarcation...Indian side just want to recognition of the points and this is not equivalent to ceding the territory...I don't see any illogical thing in it..Do you???

It was under Portugeuse rule for hundreds of years. The U.N. Trusteeship Council would probably have transferred it to India eventually, but India preferred conquest instead.

How cool...when was this eventually gonna happen? we waited for 14 years for our territory...requested the authorities but they did not budge...but how come that is equivalent to what you said "invade other nations' territories for the purpose of expansion". May i say the example you gave and explanation is idiotic at its best???

India's action ruined the U.N.'s system of peaceful arbitration of such disputes and thus created a gunpowder keg in Kashmir that Pakistan was soon to light and probably encouraged the Chinese attack before that (the sparseness of period Chinese records from this period does make this claim uncertain but it is plausible.). The one example I brought up was a sufficient answer but I didn't want India's neighbors to feel shut out.

Man my sincere request to you would be to read a bit more on this subject. Kashmir issue started in 47. Indian war in goa was not the first one after the inception of UN...so let's not make some idiotic claims which is nothing but your interpretations....will ya???