Entire Sukhoi-30MKI fleet to arrive by 2019

[Mike_Brando]

It won't.

Check out the differences between mki and su-35 and btw no one even knows what modernized flanker will have.

Bhai i am having a gut feeling that the MoD might end up ordering over 200 Su-35BM from Russia instead of Rafale!!We all know how powerful the Russian lobby is inside the Indian defense establishment,so i won't be surprised if such a deal happens in the near future.What's your take in this matter?

 

[sancho]

Well Chinese are master of reverse engineering so why blame Russia for that? Blame India for no knowledge in reverse engineering if you have to than Russians.

What for? They learned how to make the airframe, we learned it too. But were they able to develop an engine like the AL31FN with TVC? Not yet, we neither!
Did they integrated an advanced PESA like the BARS or IRBIS? No and we neither!
Are they still dependent on Russia for engines, radars, or even design support? Yes and so are we!

So where is the benefit of reverse engineering??? What China has achieved so far, is not based on reverse engineering, but on the effort they placed on R&D, which required a lot of time and money (they started nearly a decade earlier with their growth and defence industrialization) and still they aren't on par with Russia, the US or the west on R&D. Their benefit compared to us is, the industrial capability and a far simpler approach on developments (see J10/JF17 projects compared to LCA project), which makes them capable to field new developments much faster than we can, but that again has nothing to do with reverse engineering.

So if we want to blame somebody, we need to blame ourselfs, for making LCA project more difficult than needed, for not delivering the promised techs and weapons, for badly managing projects and most of all, for not using our advantage of co-operating with other countries and companies to the max, because of nationalistic reasons!

 

[sancho]

Bhai i am having a gut feeling that the MoD might end up ordering over 200 Su-35BM from Russia

As often discussed...

...IAF don't want overdependance on Russia, that's why they want indigenous or western alternatives to the MKI and FGFA
...Flankers (no matter which once) are heavy class fighters, Rafale is medium class
...after the upgrade the MKI will be at least as capable if not more (depending on customer requirements), since a lot of the changes will be the same. We already know that Samtel is offering bigger MFDs for the upgrade, similar to what the Su 35 gets, we know that DARE hase developed a new EWS, which includes UV MAWS, LWR and new jammers (most likely at the same wingtip pods that the Su 35 or other Flanker uses), we know that a high focus will be placed on the addition of RAM coatings, to reduce the RCS, while it's doubtful that IAF will remove the canards for benefits in this area, like the Russians did. We also know that the long term aim is, to replace Russian weapons with indigenous once, R27 and 77 with Astra, KAB bombs with Sudarshan, Kh 31 with an own ARM..., Brahmos will only be one addition to the list, that also is mainly aimed on our requirements.

So except of the engine, there is nothing a Su 35 will offer to IAF, that the upgraded MKI won't have, it will be in the wrong class to be an alternative to Rafale and most importantly, is not what IAF wants! Only Russian media, Sukhoi officials that are desperately looking for exports of the fighter and forumers are talking about it wrt India.

 

[Mike_Brando]

As often discussed...

...IAF don't want overdependance on Russia, that's why they want indigenous or western alternatives to the MKI and FGFA
...Flankers (no matter which once) are heavy class fighters, Rafale is medium class
...after the upgrade the MKI will be at least as capable if not more (depending on customer requirements), since a lot of the changes will be the same. We already know that Samtel is offering bigger MFDs for the upgrade, similar to what the Su 35 gets, we know that DARE hase developed a new EWS, which includes UV MAWS, LWR and new jammers (most likely at the same wingtip pods that the Su 35 or other Flanker uses), we know that a high focus will be placed on the addition of RAM coatings, to reduce the RCS, while it's doubtful that IAF will remove the canards for benefits in this area, like the Russians did. We also know that the long term aim is, to replace Russian weapons with indigenous once, R27 and 77 with Astra, KAB bombs with Sudarshan, Kh 31 with an own ARM..., Brahmos will only be one addition to the list, that also is mainly aimed on our requirements.

So except of the engine, there is nothing a Su 35 will offer to IAF, that the upgraded MKI won't have, it will be in the wrong class to be an alternative to Rafale and most importantly, is not what IAF wants! Only Russian media, Sukhoi officials that are desperately looking for exports of the fighter and forumers are talking about it wrt India.

Sir,i have a question for you.Can't we upgrade our entire Flankers fleet with the new IRBIS-E PESA radar which will certainly offer much more range than the current BARS radar?

 

[he-man]

Sir,i have a question for you.Can't we upgrade our entire Flankers fleet with the new IRBIS-E PESA radar which will certainly offer much more range than the current BARS radar?

Aim is to bypass irbis e with an aesa

 

[Mike_Brando]

Aim is to bypass irbis e with an aesa

So this IRBIS-E AESA will be more powerful or what?Plus what is the timeline for this Radar?

 

[he-man]

So this IRBIS-E AESA will be more powerful or what?Plus what is the timeline for this Radar?

Thats the problem here.
There is no russian aesaradar available to be fitted to mki.none

The only option we have is n036 aesa of pakfa but that would be required for pakfa,size wise it would fit.

The other problem with mki are engines,we should opt for 117s of su-35 with higher thrust and service life.

 

[sancho]

Sir,i have a question for you.Can't we upgrade our entire Flankers fleet with the new IRBIS-E PESA radar which will certainly offer much more range than the current BARS radar?

Possible, but is it a good way? If IAF wants to remain with PESA, the better way is to improve the BARS itself, than ordering and integrating a new radar for the MKIs. We know that the BARS was constantly improved anyway, just as it was customized with Indian parts too. The simple fact that even the Russians opted for the BARS in their Su 30SMs and not the IRBIS-E shows, that it's by far not outdated or bad at all. We also know that Tikhomirov is offering us an AESA upgrade of the BARS PESA, which might be the best way to go anyway, but as reports showed, they want us to take improvements on the PESA now and add an AESA upgrade including improvements from the FGFA AESA too (imo the best way to go for common parts and more Indian content), not to forget that the Zhuk AE is on offer too. That again would make the addition of IRBIS-E completely useless, when we have better things on offer even from Russia itself!

 

[Dillinger]

It won't.

Check out the differences between mki and su-35 and btw no one even knows what modernized flanker will have.

The "modernized" flanker's specs have been frozen, it will be head and shoulders above the current 35 and 35BM in terms of avionics and self protection while keeping pace with them in terms of the FCR unless the MoD/IAF suddenly deviate from the mission plan wrt MKI). Obviously any airframe changes cannot be made so differences will remain. As such the MKI, if it is put through the upgrade program without the usual battery of last minute jitters and procrastination, will be the finest endurance heavy SEAD/DEAD and stand off strike platform in the neighborhood- till someone comes up with a "5th generation" platform that can carry heavy stand-off munitions in an appreciable quantity.

@jaiind @IND151 As for the Russians milking us, no, the price escalations were factored in the original contract which had set down guidelines and conditions for any follow-on contracts. The Russians provided a reasonable time period within which we could opt for more MKIs without any or considerable escalation in cost per plane, we did not exercise that option within said period and so we must pay more (disregarding the cost increases due to any upgrade in specs). Ergo blame anyone but the Russians on this.

 

[sancho]

will be the finest endurance heavy SEAD/DEAD and stand off strike platform in the neighborhood- till someone comes up with a "5th generation" platform that can carry heavy stand-off munitions in an appreciable quantity.

With the arrival of the Rafale, imo it will be the better SEAD fighter. The tactic to pinpoint the radar and the SAMs and destroy them with stand off weapons, rather than attacking only the radar (in active mode), seems to me more effective. A 5th gen fighter will most likely do it the same way, but will take the advantage of stealth too. Would love to see an MKI with SPICE 250 quadpacks for precision carpet bombing (up to 28 bombs from around 100Km distance, with a CEP of 3m.

 

[Dillinger]

With the arrival of the Rafale, imo it will be the better SEAD fighter. The tactic to pinpoint the radar and the SAMs and destroy them with stand off weapons, rather than attacking only the radar (in active mode), seems to me more effective. A 5th gen fighter will most likely do it the same way, but will take the advantage of stealth too. Would love to see an MKI with SPICE 250 quadpacks for precision carpet bombing (up to 28 bombs from around 100Km distance, with a CEP of 3m.

Spice would be a good fit.

Limiting the Strike/SEAD/DEAD role to one platform might not tickle the IAF. The MKI has all the attributes of an endurance fighter which can easily run an extended CAP/Strike with adequate ETOS and with excellent self protection abilities (in the super MKI).

As for the 5th gens, they are yet to come in to their own in the strike and SEAD role, using munitions with relatively smaller ranges or payloads and thus sneaking up close to the target might work on some opponents but against a pear enemy with legitimate counter stealth options its not exactly a good idea. Appropriate munitions which can provide range and hitting power while conforming to the constraints of a weapons bay need to be developed. Till then the Strike Eagles, Rafales and MKIs of the world will remain the heavy hitters.

 

[MilSpec]

I love u man,exactly my views.

Its a complete failure of hal and drdo combine to absorb anything meaningful in 6 decades.

And still u will see fanboys parroting their names.half of these experts don't even live in india to know how these public companies work.

They work at barely 50-60 pc of their actual capacity and performance of hal/drdo is a testament to that.

If not then we indians are really stupid bunch of people which I don't think is the case.
So pick ur choice

I kinda know what that jibe was for, and I do concede that commentators like me (not experts by any means) who live abroad do not have great understanding of workings of all the PSU's like someone who works in them does. Saying that I have had some significant experience in D-Psu's like HAL in India and in addition have had other international assignments which have been on the forefront of setting new benchmarks in structural testing, automation and Product Launches. To clarify I have never claimed to be an expert, but just an observer, thus I defend an organisation like HAL from time to time on basis of the merit of the argument.

Now on the flip side, for someone to challenge or defame an organisation like HAL must be either an expert in project management and expedition or an exasperated tech/engg/manager from an organisation to give us such critical explanation of inadequacy in the related organisation/division/work-cells in contention.

What instead happens on such threads is "google pundits" trying to educate poor masses like us making a mockery of respectful discourse, just as your veiled jab did.

Talk is cheap, but understanding the complexity of manufacturing engineering is a different process altogether. Now all this might seem like "Bhashan" to what I suspect are budding younger audience (not that I am old), but in due course of time when the same audience experiences challenges of similar multitude in their arenas, relevance of structure of my discourse might seem a little less feeble...
@kaykay ; @he-man

 

[sancho]

@sandy_3126

Completely OT and I'm sorry for that, but just read this great post of a BR member named srin and I think too many of us forumers sometimes underestimate the difficulties that companies like HAL has to deal with. So just to point that out:

(context: somebody pointed out the high rate of production of Airbus, in comparison to HAL)

I'm no great fan of HAL but you are ignoring the economics here. If the order is for 40 aircraft, and there are no firm orders for anything more, then assuming that HAL invests for production line for 40 aircraft in say 2 years (20 per year), what will happen in the third year ? What do you do with the tools bought, and most importantly, are you going to fire the people you hired ? And in manufacturing, you just can't ignore the supply chain. You need to place orders with the component manufacturers in advance and they also need to ramp up the production. Say, it takes GE one year to manufacture the F404IN20 engines (and that is assuming all approvals are obtained), and say IAF suddenly says they want 20 more aircraft, can HAL manufacture it immediately ? No.

A proper production line is a flow, where there is minimum inventory, where components are supplied just in time for the manufacturing, and the finished product flows out - all done very smoothly. It will take time to establish the smoothness in the flow. People need to be hired, they need to be trained. Upfront capital investment needs to be done for the machinery, and suppliers need to be informed and contracts signed, and QA inspections carried out. Starting a production line is hard if you don't know the order size.

So - ideally, there is a gentle ramp-up and a long production time (spread across a decade) and a large volume (to amortize the upfront costs).

 

[Omega007]

I love u man,exactly my views.

Its a complete failure of hal and drdo combine to absorb anything meaningful in 6 decades.

And still u will see fanboys parroting their names.half of these experts don't even live in india to know how these public companies work.

They work at barely 50-60 pc of their actual capacity and performance of hal/drdo is a testament to that.

If not then we indians are really stupid bunch of people which I don't think is the case.
So pick ur choice

Why bringing in DRDO into this man??What do they have got to do with Su 30MKI manufacturing??

 

[axisofevil]

Well Chinese are master of reverse engineering so why blame Russia for that? Blame India for no knowledge in reverse engineering if you have to than Russians.

Well where is the Russian punitive measures that publicly state be will used against anyone who engages in reverse engineering? With China doing it since day 1, there is no teeth to it. I agree 2000%, India is being run by a bunch of idiots and morons who do not care about INDIA only their pocket, because if they did, we would set up a separate entity exclusively for reverse engineering every fuking thing in the world! Narrow minded, living in utopia, idiots who have no idea how the world works and lack complete vision for INDIA>