Enough of excuses, Pak should act: Pranab

[Vinod2070]

When he talks of 'sharing evidence ten times' he is referring to the past', the GoP has specifically asked for evidence related to the Mumbai incident, which India has so far officially refused to share.

At this point it does seem like India is more interested in escalating instead of cooperating and sharing evidence.

Possibly India is not hopeful of any positive outcome through diplomatic means and basically what is happening is just going through the motions.

India Today - India's most widely read magazine.

If what is mentioned in this link is also the belief in the official circles, it will explain matters. Its a bit lengthy but interesting and possibly explains what is happening.

A small excerpt, no way substitutes for the full article.

For India though, the emergence of Kiyani as the real centre of power has serious implications. Given the meticulous way the Mumbai attacks were planned and then executed, it was clear to Indian investigators that this was a commando-type operation that possibly had the involvement of a state actor. With Kasab singing about his LeT and ISI handlers and physical evidence mounting in terms of satellite phone calls, equipment and boats used for the attack, Pakistan’s hand seemed to be smeared all over it. Even Rice told Zardari firmly that the US had evidence to show the links. India, like much of the world, is willing to believe that Zardari and his civilian establishment were probably not involved in sanctioning such a heinous act. But with ISI’s hand or at least that of its “alumnus” in the form of retired officers being seen, the analysis is that the army may be deeply involved in the plot.

The reason the army and therefore, Kiyani, has emerged as the prime suspect is that it stands to gain most from the outcome of the Mumbai attacks. The Pakistan Army has been under tremendous pressure after 9/11 with Musharraf making commitments to crack down on terror groups and go after the Al Qaeda. To keep the brass on board he claimed that the US had promised to put pressure on India to come out with an acceptable solution on Kashmir. He committed over 1,00,000 troops to defend its borders with Afghanistan. But then US demands kept mounting. First it was to deliver the Al Qaeda operatives. Then it was to go after the Taliban, followed by orders to ‘get their leaders’. As pressure mounted to “deliver quality instead of just quantity” the credibility of Musharraf and the Pakistan’s army took a beating. The army was seen as fighting America’s war against fellow Islamists and internal unrest grew.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Bal Thackeray to govt: Attack Pak, don't warn

"Only Indira Gandhi had the guts to handle threats to national security. There is no use of issuing warnings. The govt should have the daring to attack Pak," Thackeray said.

Looks like India is a terrorist state

Well, he is asking for a repeat of the terror, destabilization and eventual war undertaken by India under Indira Gandhi ...

I am always surprised at how many Indians eulogize the criminal actions of Indira Gandhi, in sponsoring terrorism and supporting a proxy war in East Pakistan, despite complaining about the same when it comes to Pakistan.

Hypocrisy at its best, and a complete unmasking of the canard of 'peaceful nation and peaceful civilization'.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Possibly India is not hopeful of any positive outcome through diplomatic means and basically what is happening is just going through the motions.

India Today - India's most widely read magazine.

If what is mentioned in this link is also the belief in the official circles, it will explain matters. Its a bit lengthy but interesting and possibly explains what is happening.

A small excerpt, no way substitutes for the full article.

Vinod,

Sorry, but I stopped reading as soon as I realized what the gist of that article was.

It is just more continuation of the rubbish based on media speculation and hype of 'commando training'. There is blatant distortion and obfuscation of the context of comments about 'Pakistani vs Pakistani institutional involvement', when referring to evidence and statements made by people like Rice. If there actually is any serious analysis or evidence in that article pointing to Kiyani, let me know.

To your original point, As Ajpirzada posted, Pakistan took the initial actions against the JuD and some leaders, without any cooperation or lowering of tension from India, We then asked for India to cooperate and share evidence, even inviting her for a joint investigation. India refused. If there has been a failure in the diplomatic efforts,it is because India has never been interested in seeing them succeed.

Show me one single step India has taken to cooperate and have the Mumbai attacks investigated and resolved diplomatically? All it has been from day one from India's side is bluster, belligerence and demands.

 

[Prodigy17]

You answered none of my questions, despite going through the motions of responding to my post, choosing instead to launch into an off topic, nonsensical diatribe reflective of your irrational dislike of Pakistan.

Spot on AM. He would not respond bcoz that is all he knows after watching a right wing Indian channel commentaries. They would not tell them or for that matter Mukherjee would not tell them that the evidence he is talking about was shared in the past through committees relating to incidents of the past. On the other hand, he would not tell them that Pakistan also has given its proof of indian involvement in acts of terrorism which has been thrown in cold storage. How can Mukherjee claim to have shared the mumbai evidence when only last week he told CNN-IBN that India had not yet reached any conclusions in the investigations itself and when the investigations finish, only then they may think about sharing that evidence with Pakistan.
Only if people used their heads before forwarding frothy arguments heard or read from indian officials or schizoid indian media.............. or only if they had courage to question their ministers for misleading them into a situation which may lead to a conflagration which has the potential to consume many..........

 

[Vinod2070]

Vinod,

Sorry, but I stopped reading as soon as I realized what the gist of that article was.

It is just more continuation of the rubbish based on media speculation and hype of 'commando training'. There is blatant distortion and obfuscation of the context of comments about 'Pakistani vs Pakistani institutional involvement', when referring to evidence and statements made by people like Rice. If there actually is any serious analysis or evidence in that article pointing to Kiyani, let me know.

To your original point, As Ajpirzada posted, Pakistan took the initial actions against the JuD and some leaders, without any cooperation or lowering of tension from India, We then asked for India to cooperate and share evidence, even inviting her for a joint investigation. India refused. If there has been a failure in the diplomatic efforts,it is because India has never been interested in seeing them succeed.

Show me one single step India has taken to cooperate and have the Mumbai attacks investigated and resolved diplomatically? All it has been from day one from India's side is bluster, belligerence and demands.

The article basically tries to analyze the events in terms of Pakistan's internal power struggle and the coming out of the Pakistani army chief as the boss in the open. I am not too sure of what to make of it. Would rather wait and watch for some more time.

I am not sure of what is going on diplomatically behind the scenes. It is apparent that the GOI is frustrated with what they are seeing. Rice too talks of the shifty and shifting syndrome.

I think the intelligence sharing was being done through the USA channel. I am not sure if all is in the public domain. It is frustrating what is going on.

 

[Prodigy17]

For India though, the emergence of Kiyani as the real centre of power has serious implications. Given the meticulous way the Mumbai attacks were planned and then executed, it was clear to Indian investigators that this was a commando-type operation that possibly had the involvement of a state actor. With Kasab singing about his LeT and ISI handlers and physical evidence mounting in terms of satellite phone calls, equipment and boats used for the attack, Pakistan’s hand seemed to be smeared all over it. Even Rice told Zardari firmly that the US had evidence to show the links. India, like much of the world, is willing to believe that Zardari and his civilian establishment were probably not involved in sanctioning such a heinous act. But with ISI’s hand or at least that of its “alumnus” in the form of retired officers being seen, the analysis is that the army may be deeply involved in the plot.

Pathetic....... India has not been able to decide yet whether this action had government approval or not and on the other hand they claim that they have all the evidence....... Even today, mukherjee told his audience of indian diplomats that GOP or its institutions are not involved rather elements in Pakistan are responsible..... if anyone is obfuscated here, it is india. Although, one thing that everyone is united on is spouting vitriol against Pakistan. Everything else is murky. Just see their desparation to prove ISI connection, so much so that even retired officers will do for them if they can prove it.

The reason the army and therefore, Kiyani, has emerged as the prime suspect is that it stands to gain most from the outcome of the Mumbai attacks. The Pakistan Army has been under tremendous pressure after 9/11 with Musharraf making commitments to crack down on terror groups and go after the Al Qaeda. To keep the brass on board he claimed that the US had promised to put pressure on India to come out with an acceptable solution on Kashmir. He committed over 1,00,000 troops to defend its borders with Afghanistan. But then US demands kept mounting. First it was to deliver the Al Qaeda operatives. Then it was to go after the Taliban, followed by orders to ‘get their leaders’. As pressure mounted to “deliver quality instead of just quantity” the credibility of Musharraf and the Pakistan’s army took a beating. The army was seen as fighting America’s war against fellow Islamists and internal unrest grew.

Good gracious....... i would ask the poster of this quote to shed some light on it. This successfully defies all logic... congrats, another hit by Indian media.
Nothing but verbosity, not even worth publishing in a local news paper if one is to assume that the objective and logical conclusions are of any worth in indian media.

 

[Vinod2070]

India hands Kasab's letter to Pak high commission

This is a good example of sharing of evidence. Let's see what comes of it.

India hands Kasab's letter to Pak high commission.

NEW DELHI: India on Monday handed over letter written by Mumbai attack accused Ajmal Amir Iman Kasab to Pakistan's acting High Commissioner
Afrasiab, stating he is a "Pakistani".

Earlier in the day, slamming Pakistan for not keeping its promise of ending cross-border terrorism, external affairs minister Pranab Mukherjee said India is "not closing any options".

Mukherjee said the Mumbai strikes and the attack on Kabul embassy show that terrorism emanating from Pakistan is "acquiring an increasingly dangerous dimension and continues to threaten peace and stability in this region and beyond."

Addressing a conference of Indian ambassadors and High Commissioners here, he said India has sought the support of the international community to put pressure on Pakistan to "deal effectively" with terrorism.

India has highlighted that the infrastructure of terrorism in Pakistan has to be dismantled permanently, he told the first-of-its-kind conclave being held in the backdrop of a fresh chill in relations between New Delhi and Islamabad.

"We are not saying this because we are affected but because we believe that it will be good for the entire world and also for Pakistani people and society," he underlined.

Describing the terrorist infrastructure in Pakistan as the "greatest terrorist danger to peace and security of the entire civilised world," Mukherjee said "there has been some effort so far by the international community but this is not enough."

US envoy meets Chidambaram

US Ambassador David C Mulford on Monday met Home Minister P Chidambaram in the backdrop of Washington's offer to share information and collaborate with New Delhi following the Mumbai terror attacks.

The meeting at North Block lasted about half-an-hour, official sources said.

Officers from the Federal Bureau of Investigation have already questioned Mohammad Ajmal Amir Kasab, the lone surviving Lashkar-e-Taiba militant involved in the November 26 strikes, to ascertain his role and those of his handlers in Pakistan.

India hands Kasab's letter to Pak high commission-India-The Times of India

 

[Vinod2070]

Pathetic....... India has not been able to decide yet whether this action had government approval or not and on the other hand they claim that they have all the evidence....... Even today, mukherjee told his audience of indian diplomats that GOP or its institutions are not involved rather elements in Pakistan are responsible..... if anyone is obfuscated here, it is india. Although, one thing that everyone is united on is spouting vitriol against Pakistan. Everything else is murky. Just see their desparation to prove ISI connection, so much so that even retired officers will do for them if they can prove it.

Good gracious....... i would ask the poster of this quote to shed some light on it. This successfully defies all logic... congrats, another hit by Indian media.
Nothing but verbosity, not even worth publishing in a local news paper if one is to assume that the objective and logical conclusions are of any worth in indian media.

I just posted a link and quoted a media article, didn't write that piece.

I am in no way responsible for what a magazine writes! We are free to agree or disagree with the contents.

If you want me to explain what the highlighted portion meant, it seems that it will help the army to extricate itself from the Western frontier, where it is fighting a tough war it does not have it's heart in.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

If you want me to explain what the highlighted portion meant, it seems that it will help the army to extricate itself from the Western frontier, where it is fighting a tough war it does not have it's heart in.

That speculation has been bandied about since day one as well - and almost all of the reporting coming out of Bajaur has indicated that the officers are completely cognizant of the threat that the militancy poses.

One reasons Gen. Kiyani was such a darling of the West was because he communicated strongly that he considered militancy to be a serious threat to Pakistan, and it was under his watch that military officials stated frequently that they considered militancy to be a bigger threat to Pakistan than India.

Your analysis just does not fly in the face of all the evidence to the contrary.

 

[Vinod2070]

That speculation has been bandied about since day one as well - and almost all of the reporting coming out of Bajaur has indicated that the officers are completely cognizant of the threat that the militancy poses.

One reasons Gen. Kiyani was such a darling of the West was because he communicated strongly that he considered militancy to be a serious threat to Pakistan, and it was under his watch that military officials stated frequently that they considered militancy to be a bigger threat to Pakistan than India.

Your analysis just does not fly in the face of all the evidence to the contrary.

Just to clarify, it is my understanding of what the article portrays by the highlighted portion that "Prodigy" wanted me to explain.

I am not convinced with most of the article. Just posted it as a viewpoint of a mainstream Indian magazine that has often come out with good analysis.

 

[XYON]

India hands Kasab's letter to Pak high commission

This is a good example of sharing of evidence. Let's see what comes of it.



India hands Kasab's letter to Pak high commission-India-The Times of India

Is it in Kasab's handwriting or is is typed by some RAW operative? Maybe it is in Kasab's hand-writing as from the dya it was announced that their was a letter to the day it was actually delivered may have been spent in analyzing Kasab's handwriting and then finding the closest match amongst RAW operatives!

You call THIS evidence!

 

[Vinod2070]

Is it in Kasab's handwriting or is is typed by some RAW operative? Maybe it is in Kasab's hand-writing as from the dya it was announced that their was a letter to the day it was actually delivered may have been spent in analyzing Kasab's handwriting and then finding the closest match amongst RAW operatives!

You call THIS evidence!

Why jump to conclusions so soon. This attitude of denial and finding alibis is what is causing the diplomatic channel to choke in the first place!

Let Pakistan analyze and act on the letter. If it is hogwash they can demolish it internationally. If not they can act on it. They can also verify the antecedents of the 9 others who have been claimed as Pakistanis in the letter.

There is nothing for Pakistan to lose if the state is not complicit!

 

[ajpirzada]

do u really see a letter from kasab as an evidence?????

 

[XYON]

Why jump to conclusions so soon. This attitude of denial and finding alibis is what is causing the diplomatic channel to choke in the first place!

Let Pakistan analyze and act on the letter. If it is hogwash they can demolish it internationally. If not they can act on it. They can also verify the antecedents of the 9 others who have been claimed as Pakistanis in the letter.

There is nothing for Pakistan to lose if the state is not complicit!

JUMPING TO CONCLUSIONS?????!!!!!??? It was your SIKH PM who came on the boob tube to POINT THE FINGER at Pakistan and you are telling US not to jump to conclusions! Oh my! How noble of you!

Like I said earlier! harp the patronizing tone somewhere else!

 

[Vinod2070]

US Report: LET is 'New AL-QAEDA'

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